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Lucifer A Universal

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Figarole

Figarole

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I wanted to give you a hand because you have a lot of confusion about the comics, Lucifer has only a universe, not multiverse, thanks to Michael who freed his power.The power of Michael would have replaced the universe with another. But the void is a controlled detonation so as not to hurt Lucifer. In Lucifer Nirvana, he called the multiverse, but the author has explained that it intends only the structure of a single universe. As in Dragon Ball, the Universe seven and all higher realities. Additionally Death also has power over him, she would have him taken away if Elaine had not saved him, giving him life. Read carefully. In the book of magic in the last be absolute nothingness is only the Death of the Endless. But this has only the function of bringing the dead in the afterlife. She just does not have anything else. Lucifer nor Michael are not higher Destiny of endless.

the author : 'I don't see a "multiverse" as meaning many different universes. I see it as a statement about the STRUCTURE of a universe - that it sub-divides into different levels, dimensions, realms.'

MicI
MicII
 
It makes sense for him saying multiverse,while it's only just a universe with more layers,like a singer universe in DB with all other realms
 
So basically the logic is that a multiverse is just a universe "divided" (or organized) into multiple pieces. Luckily VBW relies on dimensions and not semantics.
 
Well, if I remember correctly, it was stated within the story that what was created was a "totality", a creation equal to the original DC multiverse, and in the Multiversity series, Destiny of the Endless was portrayed at the top of the 11-dimensional structure.

As such, it wouldn't make sense to downgrade all of the DC cosmic entities to Low 2-C and slightly above. Also, some people are furious enough at us already for not rating them higher.
 
Also, as Hatted Cat mentioned, for higher levels, we tend to go by the number of dimensions anyway.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, if I remember correctly, it was stated within the story that what was created was a "totality", a creation equal to the original DC multiverse, and in the Multiversity series, Destiny of the Endless was portrayed at the top of the 11-dimensional structure.
As such, it wouldn't make sense to downgrade all of the DC cosmic entities to Low 2-C and slightly above. Also, some people are furious enough at us already for not rating them higher.
Click to expand...
I have read the comics entirely. Figarole right. Lucifer only creates, thanks to Michael, only an universe, as the author himself says. The universe of God is only one universe, as they have always said in the comic. In the series then accidentally then there are only three universes (God, Elaine, Lucifer & Micheal) , no one ever talks about the multiverse.

It would not be accurate to say multiverse, since he is not. Lucifer comics by Vertigo is basically a different continuity, it is not actually the universe of DC Comics. Infact there, now, the Presence is dead killed by an angel, not omnipotent..

'Destiny of the Endless was portrayed at the top of the 11-dimensional structure'.


No one said this never. Destiny knows only the destiny of the single universe of god, but he doesn't know nothing about the new universe of Lucifer, then as it is demonstrated by the lack of knowledge of Basanos.

Also in the universe of Lucifer there is no afterlife. We know it from Elaine.
 
Well, according to Grant Morrison's new "Multiversity" series, the DC multiverse is 11-dimensional, with Destiny shown at the top of it, so regardless we would have to scale from that, but I will ask Matthew Schroeder about this.
 
However, we might have to reword the profiles, so they scale from Destiny instead.
 
Lucifer uses the worlds Multiverse / Universe and Creation interchangeably.

The Presence's, Elaine's and Lucifer's creations are all called both Multiverses and Universes. Similarly, nothing about that Author Quote implies that the DC Multiverse is only a universe, that would be ridiculous. String-Theory has been used in DC Comics ever since the 50s, with characters such as The Flash being capable of phasing from one universe to another by shifting their quantum string's vibrations, and Grant Morrison has stated that he uses Superstring-Theory for the DC Multiverse.

Likewise, The Endless have feats that put them above all of the DC Comics' hierarchy, and they have plenty of Higher Dimensional Beings. The true forms of Gods are 4th Dimensional, there are the 5th Dimensional Imps, the Cathexis, The Ultimator and the Monitor Pantheon are even higher.

This isn't even covering the stories that depict the DC Multiverse as an Omniverse, or a Metaverse (Each action taken on a plank-time period can generate infinite alternate realities, and so on and so on infinitely), or a 180,000 Dimensional Structure.

If you want, I can gather Higher Dimensional Feats for The Endless. Death of the Endless is explictly stated to be capable of killing Higher Spatial Dimensions, and she will "kill" the DC Universe at the end of everything. The profiles are fine as it is.
 
Death also has no power over Lucifer. Lucifer can't escape her because she is Death itself, and Death will come to all beings, but individually as an entity? Doubt it.

Anyway, here are feats I have gathered:

In Sandman Endless Nights Chapter 3: The Heart of a Star, the Endless are invited to a "party" happening in a higher realm of reality, where the guests are the embodiments of Stars , Constellations, Galaxies and Spatial Dimensions . Literally. And they are all shown to be afraid of death , because she will claim all of them in the end .

Dream can exist in, and affect beings who reside beyond reality and unreality, in the "space beyond space"

Mother Night, the mother of the Endless, exists in "untime and unspace beyond every event horizon".

While the canonicity is debatle, the 10th Dimensional Ultimator is stomped by Dream .

Death took Lex Luthor into a rolled up Higher Dimension so they could talk.

At the end of everything, she kills Destiny , the last remaining being, and then "locks the universe"

Lucifer exists beyond The Source / Source Wall

Lucifer stating that Death has no claim over him.

Morpheus admits that Lucifer is far more powerful than him.

And once agai .

Lucifer can rip pages from the Book of Destiny, which is often said to contai the entire DC Universe inside it.

Yahweh says that Michael has infinite power.

If Michael dies, everything will be destroyed due tot he power within him being released.

Another statement of Michael's powers destroying everything.

Again.

Michael can renew God's creation.

And Lucifer tanked said full explosion to his face.

The Presence has a manifestation, called The Voice, or Voice of the Godhead, or Logos, which is often said to have "sang" creation into being, or spoke creation into being. This is the aspect of The Presence who The Specter comunicates with.

It resides in a tower in the Silver City.

Lucifer ca casually destroy it.

Also, even if we treat it as just a tower, that is a Multiversal feat because The Silver City exists in the Sphere of the Gods, where entire universes are the size of bubbles and stuff.

Lucifer made it so that if anyone tried to close the gate to The Void, all of creation would be undone.

He later did this

When Elaine Belloc absorbed the [1] Dunamis Demiurgos from Michael] , Lucifer manipulated it so that it wouldn't overwhelm her.

Also, Lucifer's creation is indeed the totality of a Multiverse, that was directly stated .

There is also this thing. The mansions of silence, which contain infinite universes. Lucifer destroys them by looking at it.

Finally, Lucifer and Elaine's creations are equal to The Presence's in size , and The Presence created the DC Multiverse.

Can we PLEASE not downplay? If you want I can put all of these feats and more into a Respect Blog.
 
Thank you. I have linked to Michael's multiverse feat in his profile page.

However, the mention of "Dimensions" in "Sandman: Endless Nights" is almost certainly a reference to universes of limited size, or with different types of physics, especially considering the starry Eternity-esque shape of the one that we see manifested.

Also, the Ultimator is still not a part of continuity, just a story that Mxyzptlk told, and that is not Dream, it is a parody character.
 
I disagree.

"I don't care if you are a dimension or not. If you're too small to be perceived, then I don't think you get to address the assembly."

"It's not a size thing. It's a matter of perception and respect."

This is most likely a reference to how Higher Dimensions in actual Scientific Theory are rolled-up to the planck-length.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-dimensional_space

"To explain why this dimension would not be directly observable, Klein suggested that the fifth dimension would be rolled up into a tiny, compact loop on the order of 10-33 centimeters."
 
Comics tend to usually use the word dimension for the type of pocket realms that I mentioned earlier. To me it seems far more likely that it was simply an extremely tiny subatomic "microverse", which is also a common comics phenomenom.
 
Basically, for American comicbooks, we have to be careful unless the mentions are very specific regarding this.
 
Well, she can kill 11-Dimensional beings, and structures, including the multiverse, but killing a direction does not make any sense.
 
Also, apparently Multiversity implies that the Sphere of the Gods is 5th Dimensional, which would put the true forms of most powerful Gods and Angels at that level. I wanna research into that.
 
How does killing a direction make less sense then killing any other concept? Conceptual beings are a thing in DC Comics.
 
Well, it makes even less sense than something embodying a natural process. Would killing it suddenly cause everybody to be unable to move?
 
I think that the 5th-Dimensional imps were shown as the denizens of that level of existence in the Multiversity map, whereas the New Gods were stated to exist 4-Dimensionally across every universe.
 
Of course, this would likely be too hard to reconcile with their other appearances, so I do not think that we can suddenly consider Orion & company as infinite beings.
 
More things on DC Cosmology: Apparently the 5th Dimension exists in a mental realm.

"Imagination is the 5th Dimensions" Bat-Mite in R.I.P, by Grant Morrison.

"The imagination is the fifth dimension. I was proposing the notion the fifth dimension is in your mind." - Grant Morrison in this interview

Here , in Multiversity, The Bleed is said to be 5th Dimension. The Bleed is the space which surrounds the Orrery of Worlds, or the Local Multiverse. As the Sphere of the Gods remains in an even higher dimension, that would imply that the true forms of High-Level Gods such as Darkseid, Highfather, Zeus, Regular Archangels and the like, are at least 5D.
 
Yes, we may have to adjust the New Gods true forms' scaling from 3-A to 2-B after all.
 
We should also fuse Darkseid's Post Flashpoint profile with the Pre Flashpoint. If I remember correctly, in Darkseid Wars it is directly stated that the New Gods' true selves remember the previous multiverse.
 
Anyway, the Bleed seems to have replaced Morrison's old notion of Hypertime as 5-dimensional space, which is occupied by the imps.
 
Yeah. The problem is that this would imply that the Sphere of the Gods is at least 5D, since it's above the Bleed in the Multiversity map...

Regardless, I think that that should be overlook. 5D Imps are almost always portrayed as above the New Gods and the like.

Anyway, I think this thread's original purpose has concluded. I may one day do a Cosmology / Respect Blog for DC Comics, however.
 
I would appreciate if you could find a Multiversity scan (the Kamandi one, or othervise) in which the New Gods are stated to be 4-Dimensional. Then we can probably upgrade Darkseid and Orion.
 
The new version of Darkseid has a very different origin story though, but given that the "Rebirth" event is trying to revive aspects of the old Post-Crisis universe, we will see what happens.

If you wish, we could simply create an extra key for the statistics of Post-Flashpoint Darkseid in the original profile though.
 
Yes, you are probably correct in that merging them in this manner would be for the best. It would not make sense to use the Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint references taken together othervise.
 
This one.

Darkseid states that his Avatars are "extrusions of small parts of Darkseid's nearly infinite energy"

Darkseid falling over the Multiverse.

New Gods' true forms creating universes by meditating.

Darkseid's true form being in the Multiverse makes all of space-time start to collapse .

More evidence .

Darkseid's true form created countless realities to torture Shilo Noma.

Metron saw every single Crisis.

From Final Crisis : Secret Files .

"From the higher vibratory world of the New Gods"
 
The first link does not work. Perhaps you could upload the Multiversity Kamandi scan here instead?

Regardless, I would appreciate if you would be willing to merge together the Post-Flashpoint Darkseid profile to the regular one, and upgrade Darkseid's and Orion's true selves to 2-B in the process.
 
Yes. That is the one. Thanks. Although the size of the full image is too large to be displayed on my screen.

I would appreciate if you simply add Post-Flashpoint Darkseid's statistics as an extra column, and header image.
 
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