Lucemon vs Homura

[Kaltias]

If she needs to hax his true self (isn't that kind of stuff restricted for higher dimensional selves?) Homura's chances of victory are like a Dark Area Digimon. In truth, they are nonexistent

 

[PaChi2]

If she needs to hax his true self (isn't that kind of stuff restricted for higher dimensional selves?) Homura's chances of victory are like a Dark Area Digimon. In truth, they are nonexistent

I love the Dark Area reference.

But eh, totally restricting that. Hommy has to deal with the CS lucemon in front of her.

 

[Executor_N0]

It would not be the first time anyone would try to do this with Lucemon. The Malevolent Fist planned to directly destroy the old concept that the Seven Great Demon Lords embodied and thereby establish itself as the new concept of darkness that existed in the multiverse. He attacked all of the Demon World (Located in the Dark Area) collapsing that world, this scared but did not come to destroy the SGDL and they decided to escape from the Dark Area and cross the Dimensional Sea to reach another world. Weakened by the villain's attack they ended up hibernating in a Digital World until they were woken up by the TimeLine reboot.

I do not know why, but that part of Homura really reminded me of The Malevolent Fist. It originated from the old concept of darkness that existed in the Dark Area, but somehow it managed to develop into a new form becoming the entity known as The Malevolent Fist. In that form he decides to destroy the ancient darkness (which is represented by the Dark Area, Seven Great Demon Lords and so on) and establish the new concept of darkness of the world. He says that the old is outdated and the new must take its place.

Directly I believe that trying to affect the concept of Lucemon could work, but not immediately since The Malevolent Fist tried to attack them in Demon World, but failed at the end. It had to become a new being to be in the form of Bolt Boutamon to try again (And failed again OvO).

But trying to do this and trying to attack Lucemon with brute force can cause Lucemon to get into trouble and need to rest after a while (as happened with him). I wonder if Homura is able to overcome Lucemon on the 2-A scale.

Summarizing: This is not the first time that Lucemon confronts someone with this power, if the enemy is strong enough this works mainly if combined with a great destructive power (If it does not have much, that would at the most leave the Lucemon uncomfortable making him want to leave of combat as occurred in Next 0rder).

Note: Actually, I believe that Lucemon and the other Great Demon Lords were more concerned about the strength of The Malevolent Fist and not of trying to destroy their concept. So I believe that for this to happen you need to be a lot stronger than the guys like it was with The Malevolent Fist. (And even though he was terribly more powerful than them, that was not enough to destroy them on the first try.)

Note 2: This may also have happened because the concept connected to Lucemon can reach High 2-A / Low 1-C. So maybe it's because The Malevolent Fist just was not strong enough to reach the level of that concept (For now, but he wants to be strong enough for that :v).

Note 3: I feel that a good part of this comment was useless, but I thought it nice to make this comment as I prepare to continue a text to explain the philosophy behind Conceptual Manipulation (There is a philosophical explanation, but this is the worst name for it OvO)

 

[PaChi2]

w0t, m8.

3 notes, tho.

 

[Executor_N0]

Summary: Lucemon and the other Great Demon Lords are outdated as a representation of the concept of darkness and so a new representation is needed

This new representation tried to attack them by destroying what they represented, but failed. And it was terrifyingly more powerful than the Seven Great Demon Lords OvO.

 

[PaChi2]

So, shouldnt this give the SGDL resistance to conceptual erasure?

 

[Executor_N0]

I do not know, I did not put this in the last Digimon revision because I thought it would be too complicated to do. I'm more worried about giving the Digimon the elemental resistances of the Story games (Resistance to fire >>>> resistance to concepts OvO).

 

[Kaltias]

Homura's conceptual manipulation works like that:

You have Madoka, who is a conceptual entity (not an embodiment, Madoka is literally only the concept). She exists in a higher plane of existence (it's a metaphysical thing, she isn't High 2-A) and never actually manifest outside of M-Bodies.

One of the first consequences when Madoka ascended to this condition was her old self being erased across the entire multiverse (so now only the conceptual self exists)

Now, when Homura manipulated Madoka's concept/law, she took Madoka's old self (The one who never existed to begin with) and detached it from her concept self (Which still exists, but doesn't have the "Madoka" part anymore, it simply does on its own what Madoka used to do).

Worth noting that while she isn't Lavos or something like that, Ult. Madoka has an acausality worth its salt, which Homura straight up ignored.

 

[Executor_N0]

This higher plane of existence for conceptual beings is exactly the original concept of Digital World that was established for Digimon Adventure :v

Curious to notice how things change.

 

[PaChi2]

So... Lucemon resisted someone doing to him something similar to what homura did to madoka? w0t.

 

[Executor_N0]

Basically, The Malevolent Fist tried to destroy the old concept of darkness and then this would establish itself as the new concept that would rule the multiverse.

This is not the first time that concepts struggle to have their place in the multiverse. As I said the idea of what the Digital World was in Digimon Adventure is that it was the World of Ideas fom Plato. Being the Digimon the representation of the soul of its partners within the iperuranio. In the Digital World concepts would fight each other to establish the rules of the world.

In the past the concept of stationary (No evolution) fought with the concept of movement (Evolution) and after the victory of evolution the laws of the Digital World were established.

 

[Executor_N0]

Then at its most basic level, Digimon relies on the struggle between concepts to establish the laws of the multiverse.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

All this lore I never knew about...

 

[PaChi2]

All this lore I never knew about...

Want to vote, tho? ovo

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Not yet. I'll wait for the reply to Ex's lore dump. ovo

 

[Executor_N0]

The reason I have not talked about this before here is that this information is contained in interviews that Kakudou gave and also in the Novel of Digimon Adventure, and the book where this is said has not yet been translated.

But in the end all this is valid since recently in Digimon Adventure Tri is said again this fact.

Remember the introduction of the first OVA? The Digital World is Idea, the true form of the world. Our world is only a shadow of the true form of reality.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

This next revision thread will be something alright.

 

[Executor_N0]

I do not think it's something that will be accepted. The comments on the development of this idea for Digimon was something that Kakudou said on twitter and although we have indications of this in the novel and also in Adventure Tri, I believe that because of the old problems that we had because of statements in tweets this will also cause confusion.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Is Kakudo considered reliable? If so, it should be fine.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

It more or less depends on the tweet honestly. We'd have to evaluate it case by case because not every tweet is made to upgrade characters.

 

[Executor_N0]

I can not say for sure. This was a series of his Tweets revealing details of the production of the Digimon series in commemoration to the 14 years of Digimon Adventure. There were 17 tweets in all, from the development of the concept of the Digimon to choices of names and development of characters and history. It was his choice to disclose this in commemoration of the anniversary and not because someone asked.

Something like that: The first trigger point for humans to gain partner Digimon was the Hikarigaoka incident in 1996, when it was too early for a network environment. The following year, there were two people, then four people who had made contact, and by 1999 there were eight people. And every year after that, it increased at double the pace (thinking on the lines of it being binary because it's digital).

or: That's why Gennai, the existence in Adventure who was that of neither Digimon nor human, has a deeper meaning to his name: that of Hiraga Gennai. (Even in 02, on that line of thinking, the name of Gennai's other self, Benjamin, was from Benjamin Franklin, but it was just him because doing more would be repetitive.)

But I can not tell if this helps show that it is reliable.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Lucemon FRA

 

[PaChi2]

Lucey: 5

Homu: 0

Incon: 2

 

[RKGenki]

The thing is, Homura doesn't destroy the concept, she cuts the connection to it negating its effects even if you are the concept itself, reverting you to a weaker version. This to me sounds different from what you discussed about lucemon's resistance

Even then I still think this as inconclusive

 

[PaChi2]

5-0-3.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Voting Lucy FRA

 

[RKGenki]

Can someone summarize the reasons in favor of lucemon? And please don't say more/faster hax unless it's something passive (and i don't recall anything passive being discussed), and about the resistance to Homura's null (not the one on his profile qhich gets bypassed, the one that was being discussed before) I want an opinion from an expert, because to me it seems different from what Homura does (cutting the connection =/= destroying)

And rememer that homura uses that by tought and leads with it 100% of the times (at least from what is shown in rebellion, Akuma Homura doesn't have that much screentime)

 

[PaChi2]

6-0-3

Homura cannot lead with 10 haxes at the same time. She may try to time stop, she mindscrews or she spams conceptual hax, but not everything at the same time. I dont think you can say that Homu leads with something 100%. She has versatility.

 

[Kaltias]

Akuma Homura never used time stop once. And the mind hax is subconscious so yes she can do it while using conceptual hax

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So apparently Homu leads with Mind hax 100% of the time, and now also leads with concept cutting 100% of the time.

Also I believe the overall point of Ex's post is that the SGDL can resist having their concept attacked.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Also have we once thought of whether Homu would even know whether Lucemon is an abstract or not. I will go out on a limb and say she used Concept hax when she knew said character was a concept. How would she know Lucemon is a concept? He isn't gonna just come out and say "Hey, I am the concept of Pride itself".

 

[PaChi2]

Enter Lucemon boasting about having created good and evil ovo

 

[RKGenki]

Because she used that on sayaka too, and sayaka is not a concept

And the same thing can be said for lucemon as well: how would he know that he needs to use specific abilities and not some random ones?

 

[Executor_N0]

Also I believe the overall point of Ex's post is that the SGDL can resist having their concept attacked.

Speaking of which, unfortunately it will take longer until I can talk about it. My internet here at home is offline (This happened out of nowhere without any explanation, apparently the antenna got in trouble and has to come a technician to fix this) and currently I can only use mobile internet from my cell phone, but I live very far from the center of the city (Basically I live in a place almost outside of my city) and so the internet signal of my cell phone is almost non-existent. So it will take a long time for me to be able to do the posting mainly because I will have to post photos and videos.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Because she used that on sayaka too, and sayaka is not a concept

And the same thing can be said for lucemon as well: how would he know that he needs to use specific abilities and not some random ones?

Because he used said abilities on random foes. He is more than willing to go and absorb random fodder. Hell that was the first thing he did to Daemon. Spam Dead or Alive, use his Elemental Haxes, Nullify Powers by thought (we nerfed it as in the game it's from, it's passive), merge everything with the Dark Area, create duplicates, etc. Not to mention Lucemon has shown a resistance to conceptual attacks as even someone much stronger than him could destroy his concept. Yeah, Homu isn't destroying concepts, she's cutting them. However, she is still using a conceptual attack in which Lucemon can tank as explained above. She turns him into Kid Lucemon? He can just instantly transform back.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Either way, nothing changes the fact that this is inconclusive.

 

[RKGenki]

Yeah that's what I think too, never I would have argued for her to win against him, I only wanted to know why anyone was voting for him (and they're almost all fra, and if i'm not wrong they're based on your reasonings right? Don't know how it works when someone roots for a character based on the reasonings gave by someone who thinks it's inconclusive)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Yeah, I never voted until now. If Satan Mode was allowed then I would have definitively voted Lucemon, however, Falldown Mode outside of Reigitize lacks the other powers that would make this a stomp in his favor.

 

[RKGenki]

So what would be the vote count then?

 

[PaChi2]

6-0-4 now.