LoZ Downgrades

[LordXcano]

Again, easily chalked up to it being a heavy shockwave. Or more likely, the debris of him ripping the ball out. Look at what I linked. The ENTIRE argument for it being a supposed planet flip was that the "sky rotates with it" which is nothing more than the camera rotating.
If more than 15 feet of enemies took damage, maybe even the whole map? Yeah, you might actually have an argument.

What about when you're playing Guilty Gear and every super attack has an explosion encompassing the planet yet the stage isn't damaged? It's just gameplay, it doesn't delegitimize the feat.

EDIT: Ganon scales to Majora because Ganon has a piece of the Triforce. The Goddesses made Majora's entire planet by accident with mere millionths of their power (this is an actual statement). I'd say that Ganon, possessing roughly 1/3rd of that power should be way stronger.

 

[The_great_ZZ]

What about when you're playing Guilty Gear and every super attack has an explosion encompassing the planet yet the stage isn't damaged? It's just gameplay, it doesn't delegitimize the feat.

Is it really fair to compare a fighting game to a hack and slash?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Well, there's also RPGs that fit the bill. Or how about platformers?

 

[LordXcano]

What about when you're playing Guilty Gear and every super attack has an explosion encompassing the planet yet the stage isn't damaged? It's just gameplay, it doesn't delegitimize the feat.

Is it really fair to compare a fighting game to a hack and slash?

For the purposes of analogy? Yes.

 

[Metabro]

What about when you're playing Guilty Gear and every super attack has an explosion encompassing the planet yet the stage isn't damaged? It's just gameplay, it doesn't delegitimize the feat.

EDIT: Ganon scales to Majora because Ganon has a piece of the Triforce. The Goddesses made Majora's entire planet by accident with mere millionths of their power (this is an actual statement). I'd say that Ganon, possessing roughly 1/3rd of that power should be way stronger.

If this is a legitimate statement I'd like to see proof of it, because this is the very first time in my years of playing Zelda have I heard of it

 

[ChaosTheory123]

This has likely been brough up, but you can view the feat without the camera flipping,

Can't be bothered to read the rest of your OP, but skimming this caught my attentio

No shit you can see it without the camera flipping

Its all about frame of reference

The Earth is spinning, but we sure as hell can't observe it from the ground

Same concept here

 

[ChaosTheory123]

The argument is that Ganondorf doesn't scale to Majora, because there is NO reason for it. By virtue of doing NOTHING on a comparable level. This has been said numerous times now. Scaling because the ToP should be stronger is not an argument, it's an assumption.

Majora got it's shit pushed in by a magical artifact created from the population of Termina's memories

Ganon is empowered by 1/3rd of an artifact created by the strongest beings in the mythos, the whole is consistently cited as "omnipotent" (namely, while not "omnipotent", its the strongest artifact in the franchise)

Ganon without a piece of the Triforce also ***** on Vaati (because FSA), a being empowered by the Light Force that he stole a major chunk of way back in Minish Cap, which contains "infinite" power (hyperbolic, but still a better accolade than Oni Link gets).

As far as accolades go?

Omnipotent Triangle created by the Greater Gods of the story > Magical energt of "infinite" power given to the world by the creator gods > the memories of Termina's entire population > psychotic voodoo mask

 

[LordXcano]

If this is a legitimate statement I'd like to see proof of it, because this is the very first time in my years of playing Zelda have I heard of it

http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/t.jsp

Termina
When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Majora got it's shit pushed in by a magical artifact created from the population of Termina's memories

Ganon is empowered by 1/3rd of an artifact created by the strongest beings in the mythos, the whole is consistently cited as "omnipotent" (namely, while not "omnipotent", its the strongest artifact in the franchise)

Ganon without a piece of the Triforce also ***** on Vaati (because FSA), a being empowered by the Light Force that he stole a major chunk of way back in Minish Cap, which contains "infinite" power (hyperbolic, but still a better accolade than Oni Link gets).

As far as accolades go?

Omnipotent Triangle created by the Greater Gods of the story > Magical energt of "infinite" power given to the world by the creator gods > the memories of Termina's entire population > psychotic voodoo mask

What the mask may or may not have been made by is utterly irrelevant, do I have to link everytime in fiction something seriously powerful has been beaten by "friendship" or "memories"? What something is or isn't made from has nothing to do with it's displayed power. This is going to be a recurring theme for this post, as it applies to several things in the Zeldaverse.

That "infinite power" statement means absolutely nothing when we are going by what displayed feats are shown and should be used. Pure hyperbole, same as the Triforce being considered "omnipotent". All you're doing at this point is using wording and presumptions.

Nice. Something being created by someone doesn't result in it having the same level of power. At this point your entire argument is based upon using wordings to make some items more impressive than others. Nothing you have said means anything thus far to be honest, whether or not the magic triangle was made by the Golden Goddesses or not is irrelevant, you can't give it a display in power greater than what it has shown, just because it "should" be stronger, when there aren't even statements backing it up. As far as I'm still concerned, Majora dropping the moon, and the Fierce Diety destroying him puts them at the top tiers of Zelda, by virtue of them having feats on a VASTLY higher scale than Link, Ganon and whoever.

What something is made from =/= it's actual power

This goes both ways.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

What the mask may or may not have been made by is utterly irrelevant, do I have to link everytime in fiction something seriously powerful has been beaten by "friendship" or "memories"? What something is or isn't made from has nothing to do with it's displayed power. This is going to be a recurring theme for this post, as it applies to several things in the Zeldaverse.

That "infinite power" statement means absolutely nothing when we are going by what displayed feats are shown and should be used. Pure hyperbole, same as the Triforce being considered "omnipotent". All you're doing at this point is using wording and presumptions.

Nice. Something being created by someone doesn't result in it having the same level of power. At this point your entire argument is based upon using wordings to make some items more impressive than others. Nothing you have said means anything thus far to be honest, whether or not the magic triangle was made by the Golden Goddesses or not is irrelevant, you can't give it a display in power greater than what it has shown, just because it "should" be stronger, when there aren't even statements backing it up. As far as I'm still concerned, Majora dropping the moon, and the Fierce Diety destroying him puts them at the top tiers of Zelda, by virtue of them having feats on a VASTLY higher scale than Link, Ganon and whoever.

What something is made from =/= it's actual power

This goes both ways.

You certainly say a lot for what amounts to a bunch of nothing

With you, what it boils down to is

>selective application of conservation of energy to the point of hypocrisy

>Ignores accolades when convenient because "feats" don't match up with them (so, which fiction of the few dozen I can pull from do you want me to reference that gives you a nice ol'middle finger on this one? :maybe)

>Ignores plot significance and means of creation due to tropes

No, please, continue as you were. Maybe respond when you can offer me a post that requires any actual effort for me to tear into

 

[Metabro]

It seems like the main crux of this argument that Ganon (and by extension Link) is stronger than Majora relies heavily on this idea of conservation of energy. I'd like to know why exactly reality warping hax is being treated like some quantifiable figure. Each piece's only indications of power on their own are maybe stat increases and increased magic potency, but nothing they have displayed ever even remotely compares to Majora's feat. I don't understand why a magical artifact from creator deities has to follow the laws of physics. Wouldn't it be more logical for these mostly featless pieces to resonate and increase in power when fully combined. This idea isn't exactly unheard of in fiction, just look at not the Dragon Balls (which don't do anything at all on their own) or the Chaos Emeralds (which destroy a city when 5 are harnessed, yet can destroy half a moon with 6)

I think the point here is that fiction is gonna fiction and that when it comes to headache inducing topics such as potent-but-vague magical artifacts like the Triforce, the law of conservation of energy should be ignored. I assume you are the same ChaosTheory123 of the OBD, correct? Because you concluded pretty much the same thing here:

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?bt=217195

Why exactly is an even vaguer, open to interpretation topic like the Triforce different from a temple destroying feat? What changed here? I find it intriguing you'd be quick to call someone else a hypocrite when your own interpretations of using the law of conservation of energy are so fluid

Lastly, your assumption banks on the idea that a Triforce piece holder should easily defeat Majora solely because of the artifact's supernatural origin. However, we don't need to rely on speculation on this. A Triforce piece holder already fought Majora...and needed the Fierce Deity's Mask to defeat him. The thread already brought up the fact that Link was very likely in possession of the ToC during the events of Majora's Mask

 

[Metabro]

http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/t.jsp

Termina
When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina.

Thanks

After looking into this further, I can't find a single source from any game nor the Hyrule Historia that aligns with this story at all. The only thing that comes close is the fact that Termina (among a few other locations) is indeed a parallel dimension created accidentally by the Goddesses, but nowhere is it said that it is one of millions

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Lastly, your assumption banks on the idea that a Triforce piece holder should easily defeat Majora solely because of the artifact's supernatural origin. However, we don't need to rely on speculation on this. A Triforce piece holder already fought Majora...and needed the Fierce Deity's Mask to defeat him. The thread already brought up the fact that Link was very likely in possession of the ToC during the events of Majora's Mask

No he didn't

He used the mask and the description of the fight implies a stomp

Nothing about my stance is contadicted here

Why exactly is an even vaguer, open to interpretation topic like the Triforce different from a temple destroying feat? What changed here? I find it intriguing you'd be quick to call someone else a hypocrite when your own interpretations of using the law of conservation of energy are so fluid

I have no interpretation other than "collateral yay, lack of collateral who gives a shit"

It keeps stupid bullshit like Endless Mike's ki frequency nonsense from cropping up and from others like it being needed every time a bloodlusted and out to kill character fails to replicate a more casual display

There's nothing deeper to it than that

I think the point here is that fiction is gonna fiction and that when it comes to headache inducing topics such as potent-but-vague magical artifacts like the Triforce, the law of conservation of energy should be ignored.

How the hell is this a heradache inducing topic?

We're told the Triforce is the most powerful magical artifact in Zelda by numerous sources calling it "omnipotent". It's not in the literal sense of "I can do anything", but it sure as hell is in the "nothing exists here above me" sense. This isn't difficult to wrap your head around.

I assume you are the same ChaosTheory123 of the OBD, correct? Because you concluded pretty much the same thing here:

Different context, not the same situation as noted above.

Nothing to do with reality warping and your aversion to powerscaling

It seems like the main crux of this argument that Ganon (and by extension Link) is stronger than Majora relies heavily on this idea of conservation of energy. I'd like to know why exactly reality warping hax is being treated like some quantifiable figure.

"Omnipotent"

Reality warping is the end all, be all of destructive power in terms of sheer potency too

On top of being born of the power of the most powerful beings in Zelda

Please tell me more about why a random, if not powerful, Voodoo Mask is going to surpass even the Light Force (weaker than the Triforce, described hyperbolically as "infinite" and outright superior in accolades to Majora or the Oni Mask), let alone any single piece of the Triforce

but nothing they have displayed ever even remotely compares to Majora's feat.

Oh please, tell me more

Let me rattle off just about every shonen ever on why this doesn't matter

I don't understand why a magical artifact from creator deities has to follow the laws of physics.

...

So, completely goes over your head that the same can apply to any kind of magic not only in Zelda, but fiction in general?

Why are you even debating if this one eludes you? If we don't even possess this common ground for discussion, I'm legitimately wasting my time with you

Wouldn't it be more logical for these mostly featless pieces to resonate and increase in power when fully combined.

Why should I assume multiplicative to exponential boosts in power from possessing them all? When lesser magical trinkets grant "infinite power" no less.

This isn't Dragon Ball where the entire collection is needed for some magic to flow. Wishes just aren't granted while in possession of less than the whole

 

[ShadMorgen]

Reality warping is the end all, be all of destructive power in terms of sheer potency too

On top of being born of the power of the most powerful beings in Zelda

Please tell me more about why a random, if not powerful, Voodoo Mask is going to surpass even the Light Force (weaker than the Triforce, described hyperbolically as "infinite" and outright superior in accolades to Majora or the Oni Mask), let alone any single piece of the Triforce

Reality warping is available through a single Triforce wish. As has been stated in the thread numerous times. Maybe the Golden Goddesses? Everything they have done is vague as shit, no reason to be used in VS and is irrelevant in this debate.

Oh I don't know, maybe through having superior feats? Why don't you try backing up these statements instead of using hyperbole and assumptions as "evidence"? We might have something to discuss then. You're still using wording to make these things seem more impressive by the way. You haven't linked a single feat that shows the Light Force to have this level of power that you are claiming, aside from the HH stating it is "infinite". Stating it as hyperbole doesn't magically mean that it isn't.

No he didn't

He used the mask and the description of the fight implies a stomp

Nothing about my stance is contadicted here

Link had the ToC. He fought Majora. HIGHLY likely that he used the FDM out of necessity. (It's not legit canon here but in the manga he needed it) It's much more likely assumption than the awkward scaling using hyperbolic statements and theories you are using. You still aren't linking examples to back these statements up.

We're told the Triforce is the most powerful magical artifact in Zelda by numerous sources calling it "omnipotent". It's not in the literal sense of "I can do anything", but it sure as hell is in the "nothing exists here aboe me" sense. This isn't difficult to wrap your head around.

Why are we suddenly debating the interpretation of obvious hyperbole again? Please, stop referring to hyperbole as evidence. Lets judge these on the feats they have displayed, yes? The complete Triforce absolutely should be the the most powerful artifact, through it's reality warping wish granting. The individual pieces clearly do grant a stat boost, however, you can't just assume that it's whatever level you feel like, you can only put it at what is displayed. Which is roughly island level at the highest, to my understanding. Whether or not you like the Dragon Ball and Chaos Emeralds analgy that Metabro used, they hold up extremely well in comparison.


If you could actually back what you are saying from now on, instead of relying on hyperbole and theories, that would be great. I was asked at the start of this thread to back up my statements and I have in the thread. It's only fair that you do the same, especially since the burden of proof is on your to prove what you are saying.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Link had the ToC. He fought Majora. HIGHLY likely that he used the FDM out of necessity. (It's not legit canon here but in the manga he needed it) It's much more likely assumption than the awkward scaling using hyperbolic statements and theories you are using. You still aren't linking examples to back these statements up.

Don't really have an opinion on this yet, but I would like to point out that I believe canon has confirmed Link did in fact need the FD mask to defeat Majora in the moon, and he could not have defeated him, otherwise. So the FD ending is the canon ending.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Don't really have an opinion on this yet, but I would like to point out that I believe canon has confirmed Link did in fact need the FD mask to defeat Majora in the moon, and he could not have defeated him, otherwise. So the FD ending is the canon ending.

You would be completely correct. The Hyrule Historia states that it is canon here. Why would Link assume the form of the Fierce Deity if he didn't need it? (I apologise for the quality by the way, took that pic of my own HH using my phone, lol)

 

[Metabro]

No he didnt. He used the mask and the description of the fight implies a stomp. Nothing about my stance is contadicted here

If you look earlier in the thread, he did indeed possess it, as proven by the HH entries. So again, if Link was powerful enough to wipe out Majora with the ToC, why does the HH say he needed that mask


We're told the Triforce is the most powerful magical artifact in Zelda by numerous sources calling it "omnipotent". It's not in the literal sense of "I can do anything", but it sure as hell is in the "nothing exists here above me" sense. This isn't difficult to wrap your head around.

The Triforce might be, but not the ToC, or any piece by themselves. Wonder Woman's Godwave was downgraded for that reason on the OBD wiki. Possessing some fraction of a physics-ignoring power does not make each piece in of themselves immensely powerful on their own. Feats are needed too


Please tell me more about why a random, if not powerful, Voodoo Mask is going to surpass even the Light Force (weaker than the Triforce, described hyperbolically as "infinite" and outright superior in accolades to Majora or the Oni Mask), let alone any single piece of the Triforce

Said Voodoo Mask actually did something worthwhile, for one

Oh please, tell me more. Let me rattle off just about every shonen ever on why this doesn't matter

At least with verses like Dragonball the characters do something to justify their power levels. The Triforce pieces...made them glow a bit. Hardly indicative of possessing a significant portion of that planet altering power they have when combined

...So, completely goes over your head that the same can apply to any kind of magic not only in Zelda, but fiction in general? Why are you even debating if this one eludes you? If we don't even possess this common ground for discussion, I'm legitimately wasting my time with you

So sorry to be a burden. Please enlighten me as to why the power to create something from nothing perfectly follows the laws of physics then


Why should I assume multiplicative to exponential boosts in power from possessing them all? When lesser magical trinkets grant "infinite power" no less. This isn't Dragon Ball where the entire collection is needed for some magic to flow. Wishes just aren't granted while in possession of less than the whole

Because nothing implies the power they grant is anything potent at all

 

[LordXcano]

http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/t.jsp
Termina
When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina.

Thanks

After looking into this further, I can't find a single source from any game nor the Hyrule Historia that aligns with this story at all. The only thing that comes close is the fact that Termina (among a few other locations) is indeed a parallel dimension created accidentally by the Goddesses, but nowhere is it said that it is one of millions

That quote is from the official Nintendo site. It's a canon feat.

 

[The_great_ZZ]

@LordXcano

Why did you repeat the same post twice?

 

[LordXcano]

@LordXcano
Why did you repeat the same post twice?

I didn't. He doubted they created millions of worlds (Termina included) by accident since it wasn't mentioned in canon. I explained the quote is from the canon Nintendo website.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

@LordXcano

In that case, could you give us a link to this statement?

Edit: Nevermind, didn't notice the link

 

[ShadMorgen]

This has been brought up, and is utterly irrelevant to the current debate. There is no reason the full Triforce should be comparable to the vague power of the Golden Goddesses. None. Simply because they left it behind when they finished Hyrule doesn't mean it's equal. Please drop this in this current thread, thank you.

 

[The_great_ZZ]

@LordXcano

I don't know what's happening, but every time you post a comment it repeats on my screen.

 

[ShadMorgen]

@LordXcano
I don't know what's happening, but every time you post a comment it repeats on my screen.

Same for me. His posts are being doubled.

 

[LordXcano]

It's doubling for me as well. I have a virus on the computer so that might explain it.

The Triforce is stated to have the power of the Goddesses inside of it IIRC.

 

[ShadMorgen]

It's doubling for me as well. I have a virus on the computer so that might explain it.
The Triforce is stated to have the power of the Goddesses inside of it IIRC.

This post didn't double.

I am seeing nothing that says this. Do you have a link to this statement?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

May I mention tthat the Goddesses are rated 2-C and the Trifore is currently 5-B

 

[ShadMorgen]

May I mention tthat the Goddesses are rated 2-C and the Trifore is currently 5-B

VBW pages and tiers aren't actually evidence. I don't care to contest the Golden Goddesses tier right now tbh(I personally believe they should be put to "Unknown", but the 2-C tier works if going solely by that secondary canon statement.), and the Triforce power level sounds about correct. For IT, not someone wielding it, unless we specifically talking about it's reality warping single wish granting.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

May I mention tthat the Goddesses are rated 2-C and the Trifore is currently 5-B

And that's because the triforce literally has no feats on the same level as the Goddesses' creation feats

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but if we are going to say that the Triforce = A part of their power, there is a tinyyy gap of power to be seen.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Yeah but if we are going to say that the Triforce = A part of their power, there is a tinyyy gap of power to be seen.

Like I said to LordXCano. "Do you have a link to this statement?"

The only thing I have seen about this is... "After the gods had finished their work, they left the world, but not before creating a symbol of their strength, a golden triangle known as the Triforce." along with the quote directly below it. Them leaving it behind =/= comparable power.

I changes I have proposed still stand.

I must sleep now, same as last night, if everyone could not post up this thread, and please continue to read the thread so far before posting arguments in case their points have already been addressed, that would be great. Thanks! I hope we can get these changes rolling tomorrow if possible.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well I mean, a symbol of their strength. I'd have doubts a symbol of one's strength could be infinitely below you but eh, I don't think it can scales directly.

 

[The_great_ZZ]

So the verdict is....

 

[ThePerpetual]

ChaosTheory's got the reasoning down for why I'm not in support of this quite well.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that ChaosTheory123 seems to make sense regarding that the triforce pieces should be more powerful than Majora.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I think that ChaosTheory123 seems to make sense regarding that the triforce pieces should be more powerful than Majora.

This is a difficult issue, because to me, both sides seem to make sense. On one hand, yes, the individual pieces of the Triforce should dwarf Majora in power based on everything the lore has established. However, in practice, this does not seem to be the case, and assuming Link still had the ToC during the events of Majora's Mask, Majora showcased immensely greater power than the ToC, even turning Link into a Deku Scrub and having the power to pretty much instantly kill the Hero of Time were the deity not so cocky and unstable.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that version of Link could simply have been unable to use the full power of his Triforce piece. Gradual power-up throughout the games is an issue after all. One cannot stand up to the final boss at the start. If I understand correctly, composite Link is supposed to be Link at his absolute peak.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, that version of Link could simply have been unable to use the full power of his Triforce piece. Gradual power-up throughout the games is an issue after all. One cannot stand up to the final boss at the start. If I understand correctly, composite Link is supposed to be Link at his absolute peak.

Very true, and that likely shouldn't affect Composite Link, but MM Link is the same as TP Link, and the Hyrule Historia seems to suggest Link needed the Fierce Deity Mask to defeat Majora during their final confrontation in the moon, which is kind of weird if the ToC is assumed to be >>> the Fierce Deity Mask.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Scaling the triforce and triforce wielders to any feats higher than it relies on the idea that it'll always be above everything in its verse. The only thing that even gives this idea is a statement calling the triforce omnipotent, which is a massive outlier and vague implication that it's even the strongest thing in its verse like people claim. The only other reasoning for the triforce and its wielders scaling to everything in its verse is the fact that the god tiers made it, when this was already debunked by the fact that the triforce isn't even really a portion of their power.

 

[Antvasima]

How isn't the Triforce a portion of their power?