LoZ Downgrades

[ShadMorgen]

@ShadMorge

• We can see whirlwindspinning with the flippinganimation. Due to the added whirlwind effect, the flipping was obviously intended, and is not a "camera trick".

• To have a truly composite Link, we must have the planet flipping feat.

• The Triforce is described as an "omnipotent" power, and is therefore above anything else in the verse.

If he is "flipping the planet" then why at no point does it go dark? This has been asked already, and no one has addressed it. If it's a 180 degree flip, it should turn to night. If it's a full 360 degree flip, it should still turn dark for a while.

If it is a planet flip. Too much evidence pointing to it not being.

You are using hyperbole as an argument. While the complete Triforce IS the most powerful object in LoZ, it is through it's feats. Not Hyperbole.

 

[Antvasima]

If you wish, you can write polite messages on the walls of the active wiki administrators and moderators asking for input here in this thread. Avoid the bureaucrats though. Aside from myself, their help is needed for more important tasks.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Okay then. Apology accepted.
In my case, it is difficult to recall all the information from many different issues going on concurrently, especially for long threads such as this.

Anyway, beyond scaling composite Link from Majora's High 6-A or 5-C feat, what other changes are you looking for, specifically?

Thank you. And lol, yeah, that must be taxing trying to keep track of everything. It's partially why I have asked so many people to stay on topic and read the thread, it's hard enough to firmly stay on top of a single thread, nevermind multiple ones, lmao.

Composite Link's base AP to be changed to city-island level, as this is where he is correctly placed, through consistent scaling to characters that have displayed this power. Firmly island. For Fierce Deity to be put at the next bracket of AP, at multi continetal, due to it defeating Majora, who no one else scales to.

Obviously similar changes to other characters would be completely necessary.

Planet flip has been debunked at this point: If it were him flipping the planet, it would have gone dark at some point. No one has been able to refute this.

Demise statement is blatant hyperbole, as nothing he displays is at this level of power. No one has been able to refute this.

 

[ShadMorgen]

If you wish, you can write polite messages on the walls of the active wiki administrators and moderators asking for input here in this thread. Avoid the bureaucrats though. Aside from myself, their help is needed for more important tasks.

Ah, thank you for the advice Antvasima.

 

[Antvasima]

Composite Link should scale from the greatest feats of all incarnations, including the one that overpowered Majora.

And no problem.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Composite Link should scale from the greatest feats of all incarnations, including the one that overpowered Majora.
And no problem.

Ahhh but you see, he canonically did so with the Fierce Deity Mask. Which is why it would be listed as a seperate tier, it's another form. Composite Link WOULD have it, no doubt whatsoever, but it is a seperate form, and would need to be listed as such. Think of it like...the easiest example is Goku's SSJ form.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Firstly, I apologize in advance.

Okay. You want links? Here's your links

proof of the triforce of power turning Ganondorf into Gano

For the record, not only was Ganon supposed to be the hardest boss because it was the FINAL BATTLE!, but I wasn't arguing the power change in Bongo Bongo being harder (which I was fully aware that it's subjective) being stat related.

The imprisonment era in the downfall timeline is when after Ganon recieves the full triforce and warps the sacred realm, he is imprisoned and STILL takes the triforce with him.

To the Bayo thing, you say you've been lurking here a while, yes? Then you've OBVIOUSLY have seen other threads use others as references. Don't try to morph this one differently to get it into your favor. It has been done in the past, and it will be done now. I was obliging you to be respectful, but if the situation requires me to make references to other things, then so be it.

On the subject of using examples, I see you just used SSJ as one.

Demise has no feats because he is only there for one battle. And, again, the Imprisoned, who needed Zelda/Hylia's soul to become whole again was killed by the island fall, and you said it yourself that he left the triforce back to defeat Demise. Oh. And here's the link to that too. Demise has no contradicting feats. He's defeated by Link, which is his only thing.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Thank you for providing links, I hope others will continue to do so.

Okay. You want links? Here's your links

proof of the triforce of power turning Ganondorf into Gano

For the record, not only was Ganon supposed to be the hardest boss because it was the FINAL BATTLE!, but I wasn't arguing the power change in Bongo Bongo being harder (which I was fully aware that it's subjective) being stat related.

At no point did I say that it wasn't the ToP turning Ganondorf into Ganon. It's common sense and stated a few times. This changes absolutely nothing, as you are addressing a non-existant point. You also didn't provide the examples I actually did ask for.

'T'o the Bayo thing, you say you've been lurking here a while, yes? Then you've OBVIOUSLY have seen other threads use others as references. Don't try to morph this one differently to get it into your favor. It has been done in the past, and it will be done now. I was obliging you to be respectful, but if the situation requires me to make references to other things, then so be it.

Except for that comparison being completely off topic, borderline derailing, and deals with a completely different point. It also relies on me agreeing with them, I don't care about Bayonetta, and haven't actually looked into the thread, as I know nothing about the verse. Notice how the other examples that were given throughout this thread, (Chaos Emeralds to Triforce, SSJ) were DIRECTLY comparable, and also things that the VAST majority of people would know about.

Demise has no feats because he is only there for one battle. And, again, the Imprisoned, who needed Zelda/Hylia's soul to become whole again was killed by the island fall, and you said it yourself that he left the triforce back to defeat Demise. Oh. And here's the link to that too.

And this proves he is planet level exactly how? Since the only feat he has is fighting Link, you now need to show where in SS Link has shown he is planet level.

 

[LordXcano]

Because that is exactly what happens. You haven't refuted anything, only solidified the points made.

So you're saying Link harms characters via doing nothing?

Why are you not linking anything then? He doesn't. The only one who uses the Triforce in A Link to the Past is Link, who uses it to undo Ganon's evil.

Except the entire plot begins with Ganon getting the full Triforce and being sealed in the Sacred Realm?

It might help if you provided the context, and an actual link to this. I will, to show why this is an incorrect use of this quote, which is out of context.

They do say this, but in referral to only his Triforce of Power, which revealed itself to him, when they attempted to execute him. It's why he survived, and had to banish him to the Twilight Realm. They are in no way referencing the full Triforce, this is the first time Ganondorf in this timeline obtained his ToP.

I never said that this was the full Triforce. I'm saying this proves that the Triforce also provides inherit power. Since, by your word, the entire Triforce together is massively stronger than the sum of its parts, this would be a huge inherit power boost.

So now you are arguing that the ToC DOESN'T give as large a boost as the ToP? And that all the pieces are NOT equal? This is the opposite of progress. He had the ToC, and was powerful. Majora was a greater threat than anything else, this is backed up by him dropping the moon, whose detonation was powerful enough to yield a multi-continental blast. NOTHING any incarnation of Ganondorf has done is even remotely close to this.

The pieces are "equal" in their own ways. Much like how a random air-bender and a random earth-bender are "equal" they just have control over different things. Some of these things happen to be combat related. So it makes pretty inherit sense that the ToP would be > the ToC combat wise.

And again, the Triforce is the highest item in the lore. Since the ToP is based around power it should obviously scale to Majora's power. Link would then scale to the ToP when he beats Ganon.

------

"Demise being at that level, is by an obviously hyperbole, secondary canon, outlier statement. Demise has displayed NOTHING close to planet level, at any moment. The only way this "wasn't changed", is by you REFUSING to accept the facts here. Show me actual evidence of Demise being planet level. Demise in the present timeline during Skyward Sword was killed by an island being dropped on him. Fi even specifies that he was "eradicated". Meaning he was destroyed completely."

-----

Why is it secondary canon? Are the boosts to Elder Scrolls gained from Kirkbride's works also "secondary canon" and should be removed? As other people have pointed out, the killed being was the Imprisoned, not Demise.

You also say it's an outlier when Demise has 0 other feats to suggest it being that.

No. The whole game is non canon. So you are trying to scale a non canon weapon, from a non canon game mode, from a non canon game to the canon Master Sword? Do you actually have any proof for ANY of this? Just because characters who are in the main games show up does NOT make them canon in this. You simply cannot scale a weapon over another on nothing other than Author's Intent, which this isn't even. There have ALWAYS been stronger weapons than the Master Sword, as far back as OoT, which gave us the Biggoron's Sword.

"The universe of Hyrule Warriors really is sort of a different universe and it is connected to the timeline of the Zelda series, but it is connected to several different games throughout the series. [...] We really don't want to put it in the timeline because it has links to the different parts of the timeline."

Right there. Hyrule Warriors is connected to the main game timelines, but the original verse in it is separate. The Master Sword may have stronger weapons, but that's because it was made to slay evil, not necessarily random passerby. Although it could also be gameplay.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Basically what Xcano said. Demise has no contradicting feats, and the imprisoned was killed by the island. The reason I linked the video was to show that Demise was the being that came after taking Zelda's/Hylia's essence, or whatever. Demise being planet level wasn't refuted either aside from someone arguing hyperbole with destroy the world, and that point Ant refuted himself

My references are not what you're making them out to be. So many people on this site say for example "by your logic, Gremmy could beat SSB Goku" despite the fact that the battle is between Gremmy and say, Naruto. That's basically what I'm doing here, and you're trying to stop that despite the fact that it's a common occurence on this site.

When you said that you weren't trying to refute the power boost gained from the ToP since it was common sense, I give you this:

'A'lright. For the record, I believe him with the pieces giving power. Remember, it's what turns G-dorf into Ganon in OoT, giving the 2nd hardest boss battle in the game (I HATED Bongo Bongo, and I didn't have the lens of truth), and gives him the power to slay the water sage in TP.

Still you are not linking proof that these are shows of power you are claiming they are.

you asked for that.

One more thing. By your logic, we shouldn't scale at all, because of the fact that no-one offered similar feats. Only composite and ALTTP Link should be scaled off of Onox, I guess. And no one in DBZ should be scaled off of Cell's statement, except for Cell and SSJ2 Gohan, or Raditz' special beam canon dodge.

 

[A_DB_Fan_named_Jake]

@The real cal Howard

Exactly, power scaling IS bs. A character should only be judged by what he has actually done, not on what others have done, nor by statements that the character hasn't backed up.

Just because character A can do it, doesn't mean character B can too

 

[ShadMorgen]

So you're saying Link harms characters via doing nothing?

...Confirmed for not reading the thread! As I have asked people to do so MULTIPLE times throughout this! As was said earlier, on several occassions, it is FAR more likely it is just a heavy slam followed by him ripping it out. This is why it only affects enemies in such a close range, and anyway, the "planet flip" aspect has been debunked. If he were flipping the planet, it would change from day to night.

I never said that this was the full Triforce. I'm saying this proves that the Triforce also provides inherit power. Since, by your word, the entire Triforce together is massively stronger than the sum of its parts, this would be a huge inherit power boost.

Then can you actually specify what piece of the Triforce you are talking about, instead of unncessarily complicating this for EVERYONE reading? And once again you are showing that you haven't read the thread. As has been shown NUMEROUS times, the full Triforce is planet level through a single, reality warping wish.

You also say it's an outlier when Demise has 0 other feats to suggest it being that.

It's an outlier because NO ONE in SS is anywhere near planet level. Please, stop this. it's getting ridiculous. Why do you not understand that without ANY feats at this level, it is pure and utter hyperbole? It's hyperbole until he is shown to be at this level. The burden of proof is on you, and has been this whole time. Lack of feats only furthers the proof that this is hyperbole, you don't seem to understand this.

 

[ShadMorgen]

I am going to bed, please do not rush the thread, thanks.

I feel we are now going backwards as opposed to making progress. People are not reading the points that have been presented already, like I have requested several times.

Several things at this point have been proven.

>The "planet flip" is debunked, it doesn't turn dark

>Demise statement is hyperbole until people prove otherwise, people do not understand that lack of evidence to solidify it only makes it MORE hyperbolic, not the other way around

>ToC =/= Majora, which is why the FDM was required. This is proof that the ToC isn't on this level.

>Other decisions made on wikis are NOT actual proof


Tomorrow I hope we can make actual progress, I am getting extremely tired of having to repeat myself simply because people don't feel bothered enough to catch up with the current debate, and it is getting to the point where it is almost disrespectful I feel.

 

[ShadMorgen]

@The real cal Howard
Exactly, power scaling IS bs. A character should only be judged by what he has actually done, not on what others have done, nor by statements that the character hasn't backed up.

Just because character A can do it, doesn't mean character B can too

This is neither the time 'nor place to debate power scaling.

I will say this however, there is nothing wrong with power scaling, as long as it is done correctly and without abusing it.

Please do not try to further derail this thread with this topic.

 

[UncleSpaceman]

I am going to bed, please do not rush the thread, thanks.
I feel we are now going backwards as opposed to making progress. People are not reading the points that have been presented already, like I have requested several times.

Several things at this point have been proven.

>The "planet flip" is debunked, it doesn't turn dark

>Demise statement is hyperbole until people prove otherwise, people do not understand that lack of evidence to solidify it only makes it MORE hyperbolic, not the other way around

>ToC =/= Majora, which is why the FDM was required. This is proof that the ToC isn't on this level.

>Other decisions made on wikis are NOT actual proof


Tomorrow I hope we can make actual progress, I am getting extremely tired of having to repeat myself simply because people don't feel bothered enough to catch up with the current debate, and it is getting to the point where it is almost disrespectful I feel.

• ... why would it turn dark from Links perspective? He isn't flipping the planet infront of him, he is flipping it around his side.

• Considering that LoZ has plenty of Planet Level characters like Gano and Link, Demise being Planet Level is not an outlier.

• Majora vs FD Link was implied to be a stomp in Links favor. A vodoo mask should not be as powerful as a piece of the "omnipotent" power handed down by the godesses of the verse.

 

[Metabro]

Considering that LoZ has plenty of Planet Level characters like Ganon and Link, Demise being Planet Level is not an outlier.

Planet level based on what? The Triforce? We've been over that, but that doesn't make their base strength that powerful

Majora vs FD Link was implied to be a stomp in Links favor. A vodoo mask should not be as powerful as a piece of the "omnipotent" power handed down by the godesses of the verse.

Where did it imply it was a stomp? All the HH said was that FDM "eradicated" the threat

 

[Antvasima]

As I mentioned earlier, I would appreciate if somebody could ask the other administrators and moderators to help evaluate this thread.

 

[ShadMorgen]

As I mentioned earlier, I would appreciate if somebody could ask the other administrators and moderators to help evaluate this thread.

Will do Antvasima. I'm at work, and will be for several more hours but I will do so this evening.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Before any more debating, I'd like to apologize to Shad for being rude. The things I wrote were snarky, and my online behavior was bothering me all night. I hope you can forgive me.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Before any more debating, I'd like to apologize to Shad for being rude. The things I wrote were snarky, and my online behavior was bothering me all night. I hope you can forgive me.

Hey now! There is absolutely no reason to feel bad over it man, I certainly won't hold it against you. I accept your apology, and completely forgive you bud.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright. Cool. Thanks man. Glad to know we're cool. Takes a weight off my chest.

 

[ShadMorgen]

@Antvasima: I have left messages on the walls of several mods/admins just now. Is there any other actions you recommend for me to do?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

After reading through this thread, there's really only one thing I feel the need to ask about; Did Link still have the ToC during the events of Majora's Mask? If he did, I am not likely not going to be comfortable scaling Triforce users to Majora, since Majora (while restricted in the mask) made an absolute fool out of Link at the beginning of the game, and HH implies he needed to use the FD mask to win. If someone can find confirmation of if he did or did not have the ToC, that would help greatly.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Though, Link was made a fool of by Ganon during their first encounter in OoT too.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Though, Link was made a fool of by Ganon during their first encounter in OoT too.

Yeah, but he still defeated him, later. And MM Link is still the same hero (Hero of Time).

Also, wouldn't that imply if anything, only Ganon scales to Majora and the ToC and ToW are less powerful than the ToP?

 

[ShadMorgen]

After reading through this thread, there's really only one thing I feel the need to ask about; Did Link still have the ToC during the events of Majora's Mask? If he did, I am not likely not going to be comfortable scaling Triforce users to Majora, since Majora (while restricted in the mask) made an absolute fool out of Link at the beginning of the game, and HH implies he needed to use the FD mask to win. If someone can find confirmation of if he did or did not have the ToC, that would help greatly.

Thank you for taking it out of your time to read through this thread Azathoth.

Yes, Link in fact DID have the ToC, as you can see in this screenshot of the Hyrule Historia it is confirmed that the Triforce of Courage stayed with Link, as Ganondorf was sealed away with the Triforce of Power. I can find no evidence that Link lost the ToC.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Shad

Alright. And as I questioned before, is there official statement of all three Triforce pieces being equal in power?

 

[ShadMorgen]

@Shad
Alright. And as I questioned before, is there official statement of all three Triforce pieces being equal in power?

Honestly? Not that I am aware of.

However, Link did not have the Triforce of Courage when Ganondorf made a fool of him in OoT. Remember, that happened when Impa was fleeing with Zelda, before Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm and touched the Triforce.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Just an update on my previous post.

As seen here Ganondorf makes a fool of Link whilst chasing after Zelda and Impa. Zelda leaves the Ocarina of Time for Link.

Here Link opens the door and obtains the Master Sword, in the process, opening the door to the Sacred Realm. Ganondorf then goes and obtains the Triforce of Power, the other two pieces align with Zelda and Link, because Ganondorf did not display all three attributes.

The rest, is history...

 

[The_great_ZZ]

Alright. And as I questioned before, is there official statement of all three Triforce pieces being equal in power?

I think they are since they are symbols of the Golden Goddess which have to be equal to each other.

 

[Sora'sOther]

After reading through this thread, there's really only one thing I feel the need to ask about; Did Link still have the ToC during the events of Majora's Mask? If he did, I am not likely not going to be comfortable scaling Triforce users to Majora, since Majora (while restricted in the mask) made an absolute fool out of Link at the beginning of the game, and HH implies he needed to use the FD mask to win. If someone can find confirmation of if he did or did not have the ToC, that would help greatly.

Thank you for taking it out of your time to read through this thread Azathoth.
Yes, Link in fact DID have the ToC, as you can see in this screenshot of the Hyrule Historia it is confirmed that the Triforce of Courage stayed with Link, as Ganondorf was sealed away with the Triforce of Power. I can find no evidence that Link lost the ToC.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

That picture is from Ocrania of time link who had it, if you go here http://zeldawiki.org/Triforce#Triforce_of_Courage it says that," The Triforce does not play any direct role in the storyline of Majora's Mask."

 

[ShadMorgen]

That is not proof that he doesn't have it. It simply means it didn't play a role of any sort in the game. If anything? It's lack of relevance only shows that Link needed the Fierce Deity Mask to win.

 

[Sora'sOther]

That is not proof that he doesn't have it. It simply means it didn't play a role of any sort in the game. If anything? It's lack of relevance only shows that Link needed the Fierce Deity Mask to win.

And there is no proof he did have it

 

[Sora'sOther]

and the fact that the triforce is only seen occasionally in mm as just a mere symbol. The Triforce appears only on the links shield and on the clothes of multiple people and the carvings on the tongues of the statues leading to Ikana from Termina Field and on the blocks outside the entrance of the inverted Stone Tower Temple.

 

[ShadMorgen]

...You do understand that the screenshot I provided of Link, whilst being in the ending of OoT is the EXACT same Link as the one in Majora's Mask, yes? There is nothing to say he lost it, as at no point is he DISPLAYED to have lost it. Aonuma even said it doesn't play a "direct" role in the game, to use that quote you provided. That means it's there, it just isn't relevant to the plot. The burden of proof is now on you to prove that he lost it. "No proof he has it" =/= losing it, that's not how this works.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Well, I must head to sleep now, so I won't be able to reply for quite some hours. Glad the thread is progressing smoothly again.

 

[Alakabamm]

Okay, I'll start off with saying that I have never played a single Link game and that I am just going to provide my opinion on a few things.

1. The planet flipping does in fact seem a bit excessive for the lack of information we are given about the feat. However, just because the planet was flipped does not mean it has to turn to night time, necessarily. Link can stay in the same spatial location as he does it and merely rotate the planet around himself (still a "flip")

2. The quote about the three pieces of triforce needing to be together to have full power...doesn't seem to say that at all. That is a very liberal interpretation of what is being said there and I am uncomfortable interpreting it that way.

3. I agree that "power to destroy the world" doesn't necessarily mean he can destroy the world. However, even if he dies by island drop, it wouldn't prove he isn't planet level, just that his durability is bad.

4. It seems that Majora > ToC Link in several aspects, so yea, it is probable he doesn't scale, however....

5. What is all this stuff about goddesses empowering the Triforce? If it is truly the case that the goddesses put their full powers into the Triforce, then the theoretical height of Link's power (not his shown, his height) would be at their level. I don't think this justifies saying "planet level" but higher/lower depending on exact statements. The only way I can see this being applied to "planet level" is if we know what happened to the other world that got ruined and calc that.

6. I think I saw a quote about the source of Majora's power being related to the goddesses? That would make a lot of sense if we scale the Triforce to the godesses.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Only thing I can think of is the fact that the ToC only revealed itself in OoT during Adult Link's time, and MM happens in the child timeline. With the whole timey wimey things going on, it would make sense that he didn't get it yet, because after the events of OoT, he didn't even get punished by Ganondorf yet, way before he had the ToC. Bottom line is, he gets the courage piece as an adult and MM takes place as a child, after he time travels back into a child.

 

[LordXcano]

So you're saying Link harms characters via doing nothing?...Confirmed for not reading the thread! As I have asked people to do so MULTIPLE times throughout this! As was said earlier, on several occassions, it is FAR more likely it is just a heavy slam followed by him ripping it out. This is why it only affects enemies in such a close range, and anyway, the "planet flip" aspect has been debunked. If he were flipping the planet, it would change from day to night.
I never said that this was the full Triforce. I'm saying this proves that the Triforce also provides inherit power. Since, by your word, the entire Triforce together is massively stronger than the sum of its parts, this would be a huge inherit power boost.

Then can you actually specify what piece of the Triforce you are talking about, instead of unncessarily complicating this for EVERYONE reading? And once again you are showing that you haven't read the thread. As has been shown NUMEROUS times, the full Triforce is planet level through a single, reality warping wish.

You also say it's an outlier when Demise has 0 other feats to suggest it being that.

It's an outlier because NO ONE in SS is anywhere near planet level. Please, stop this. it's getting ridiculous. Why do you not understand that without ANY feats at this level, it is pure and utter hyperbole? It's hyperbole until he is shown to be at this level. The burden of proof is on you, and has been this whole time. Lack of feats only furthers the proof that this is hyperbole, you don't seem to understand this.

I said that if he ripped it out of the ground it would've gotten dark from the land's shadow. So using shadow's to debunk a clear planet flip isn't gonna fly.

ToP provides the boost. You also straight up ignored my point about Ganondorf using the full Triforce several times in ALttP without losing it.

How the hell am I supposed to pull up a Demise planet-busting feat? There's only 1 planet we know of in the series, and he only shows up for one fight. Not only that but you're the one contesting the claim he's planet level, so the burden of proof lies on you.

Here is literally what I'm saying

Goddesses > Full Triforce > Hylia = Demise (Demise being slightly lower, possibly) > ToP > Majora > ToC/ToW

This isn't really relying on a "hyperbole statement", we've had Multi-Continental feats in the series before. I see no reason why someone powerful enough to challenge a Goddess shouldn't be above that.