LoZ Downgrades

[Metabro]

I'd say the latter. In both Lex's and Link's cases they actually used those items in canon at one point or another

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And the same case could be made about the Master Sword. He NEVER keeps it post-game.

 

[Metabro]

Not what I meant. I meant that wielded it before. And Link did psess it post-battle in ALTTP to restore Hyrule. That's the whole epilogue.

If that's the case, it's fine for a composite article like this. I was just detailing the events

 

[ShadMorgen]

Really? I would assume that its inclusion in Hyrule Hystoria would be confirmation of its canonicity.
Cal, that's not really true. Standard battle assumptions give each character their standard equipment unless stated otherwise in the thread. Link has to dig into two other characters' standard equipment to get the full Triforce, and so does Ganon.

Here is the only confirmed statement on the manga.

Pic of my own copy.

They were literally only commisioned to write it for the sake of having something for the HH. It's not canon, never been confirmed to be, and falls into the exact same category as the manga.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If that's the case, it's fine for a composite article like this. I was just detailing the events
Aight, bro. no hard feelings.

 

[A_DB_Fan_named_Jake]

I feel Shad wouldn't have created this thread if Ganondorf wasn't gonna be in the next Death Battle. Anyway, here's my opinion:

Ganondorf has never demonstrated ANY planet-level feats in any LoZ game I've ever played, which is all except HW, and I don't think HW is canon anyway.

Even his page on this very wiki, https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ganondorf, is full of bs. Such as:

How is he comparable to Majora? We haven't really seen what the Triforce of Power can do, except transform him into Ganon and revive him once per incarnation

He may have rebuilt the full Triforce in Wind Waker, but he never got to actually use it, as the King of Hyrule got to it first. So he can't really be stated as Planet-level. He's never wielded the whole Triforce

 

[ShadMorgen]

This is getting out of hand. Full composite means he has access to both FDM and the Full Triforce, no doubt. Fierce Diety comes to continent level, due to defeating Majora, who was strong enough to drop the false moon, which resulted in a massive blast as far as I'm concerned, this is ABSOLUTELY as strong as LoZ's base AP goes outside of ******* vague statements. Nothing other than FD scales to Majora. Specify FDM as it's own category, and that Link has to be in the form.

Highest level would be full Triforce. Planetary reality warping, only through a single wish. This MUST be specified.

Let me get back on base Link. HW "planet flip", is pretty bunk. If we could only debate these points, that'd be great.

 

[Metabro]

I would say without any other masks or HW stuff, the best on screen feats are city to island level correct?

 

[ShadMorgen]

I feel Shad wouldn't have created this thread if Ganondorf wasn't gonna be in the next Death Battle. Anyway, here's my opinion:
Ganondorf has never demonstrated ANY planet-level feats in any LoZ game I've ever played, which is all except HW, and I don't think HW is canon anyway.

Even his page on this very wiki, https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ganondorf, is full of bs. Such as:

How is he comparable to Majora? We haven't really seen what the Triforce of Power can do, except transform him into Ganon and revive him once per incarnation

He may have rebuilt the full Triforce in Wind Waker, but he never got to actually use it, as the King of Hyrule got to it first. So he can't really be stated as Planet-level. He's never wielded the whole Triforce

Ganondorf has NOTHING to do with this thread. Personal assumptions ain't gonna back shit up bud. While I AM currently researching Ganondorf's non wanky stats, I also noticed this site's LoZ characters are really inflated, and have been for some time. Really, I just got sick of seeing it. Sucks for anyone who wants to research LoZ and find actual stats.

HW is 100% non canon.

Ganondorf does NOT scale to Majora. Majora was a being whose power was such that he was able to drop the moon for ***** and giggles. Ganondorf has sought the full Triforce to accomplish ANYTHING worthwhile.

Rebuilding the Triforce? What does this mean? Are you referring to when he used Link and Zelda's pieces to remake the full one?

 

[ShadMorgen]

I would say without any other masks or HW stuff, the best on screen feats are city to island level correct?

This seems correct, yes.

 

[A_DB_Fan_named_Jake]

@ShadMorgen

Yes, I am referring to that

 

[The_great_ZZ]

I feel Shad wouldn't have created this thread if Ganondorf wasn't gonna be in the next Death Battle.

@A DB Fan named Jake

Why did feel as though Shad made this thread because of death battle?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Scaling puts Ganon higher than Majora, and Link as well. And that by default makes the FD mask than base Link. Remember, MM Link nor Majora had any triforce pieces, and they're continent level on their own.

And for the person who said island level at top, let me remind that the Misery Mire feat was calced at country level.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Scaling puts Ganon higher than Majora, and Link as well. And that by default makes the FD mask than base Link. Remember, MM Link nor Majora had any triforce pieces, and they're continent level on their own.
And for the person who said island level at top, let me remind that the Misery Mire feat was calced at country level.

Ridiculous. Majora was a greater theat than Ganondorf, even at his prime. Ganondorf has constantly sought the Triforce to accomplish ANYTHING massive. Saying "Ganondorf should be higher than Majora because Triforce!" is NOT an argument. It's speculation. One of them dropped a moon that caused a ridiculous explosion, and yielded continent levels of destruction. The other is consistently city-island level.

Feel free to correct me on this, but IIRC Link still the ToC in MM, it never left him at the end of OoT. Just because it never came into play in MM...

 

[Antvasima]

I do not really have an opinion about this, but mind the constant crude language. Thank you.

 

[ShadMorgen]

I do not really have an opinion about this, but mind the constant crude language. Thank you.

Will do. Habit, lol. My apologies.

 

[Metabro]

Scaling puts Ganon higher than Majora, and Link as well. And that by default makes the FD mask than base Link. Remember, MM Link nor Majora had any triforce pieces, and they're continent level on their own.

And for the person who said island level at top, let me remind that the Misery Mire feat was calced at country level.

Mistery Mire operated on the assumption that Hyrule is as large as a continent. It is not

 

[ShadMorgen]

Got it. Link still clearly has the ToC at the end of OoT.

No reason to assume he lost it in MM.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Hah. Decided to check my HH to see if it confirms this. Went to the start of the MM/TP timeline summary. Guess what?

It does.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then how large is hyrule then? Country size? Seriously, we need more people well versed in Zelda to help with this than just me.

 

[Metabro]

Fairly large I'd say, but less than continent sized, perhaps significantly less so. The Hyrule Historia clearly states in the WW section that the continent CONTAINING Hyrule sank. This does not mean Hyrule = continent, rather it implies continent > Hyrule

 

[Skeleturtle]

Probably because the discussion on SA forums led to looking over all significant LoZ feats, including this one, which appeared to be BS or smth.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Some of the arguments seem to have diverted from the original downgrades. Would someone mind bringing me up to speed on exactly what is being discussed, now?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Potency of the triforce, scaling Ganon from Majora, size of hyrule, and HW calc. Oh, and Demise being planet level.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wasn't Demise comparable to the full Triforce? Because that seems like justification for planet level.

As for scaling Ganon to Majora, I was always under the assumption that ToP Ganondorf was weaker than Majora. ToP Ganondorf was comparable to ToC Link, and Majora made ToC Link look like an absolute joke, and IIRC, it was confirmed the Fierce Deity mask was indeed required to win, in the canon. I could be misremembering, though.

 

[Metabro]

Pretty much what the title suggests

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Fierce Deity was required canonically

And scaling full triforce ganon to Majora.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Again, Ganondorf is absolutely NOT comparable to Majora. Why? By virtue of having THE most impressive feat in the entire series.

I'll go back over what I am proposing.

Link's composite attack potency to be changed to city-island levels, as this is just where pretty much every high end feat places them. It's the fairest assessment.

Composite means he has access to the Fierce Deity's Mask. Continent level through dispatching Majora's who pulled down the moon.

Planet level through a SINGLE reality warping wish if he is granted the full Triforce.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Composite means he has access to the Fierce Deity's Mask. Continent level through dispatching Majora's who pulled down the moon.

Multi-Continent. The most recent accepted recalc puts the moon drop at Multi-Continent.

Anyway, is this for canon composite?

 

[WarriorWare]

I mean, wouldn't a full composite Link scale to Tabuu?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No one scales to Tabuu. Not even things like R.O.B. or G&W.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Composite means he has access to the Fierce Deity's Mask. Continent level through dispatching Majora's who pulled down the moon.

Multi-Continent. The most recent accepted recalc puts the moon drop at Multi-Continent.
Anyway, is this for canon composite?

You got the updated calc? Anyway, whatever the moon drop yields, Fierce Diety scales. Nothing else scales. Not Ganondorf, not any base Link, no one.

And yes, for the canon composite. Obviously other changes would need to be had, depending on what gets agreed here.

 

[Metabro]

Multi-Continent. The most recent accepted recalc puts the moon drop at Multi-Continent.

Anyway, is this for canon composite?

25 petatons is multi-continent?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You got the updated calc?

It should be on Majora's page under its AP.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So wait, your argument that Ganon doesn't scales to Majora is because Majora has a higher feat..?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

25 petatons is multi-continent?

The newest yield is >1 exaton, which is on the low end of Multi-Continent.

 

[ShadMorgen]

So wait, your argument that Ganon doesn't scales to Majora is because Majora has a higher feat..?

The argument is that Ganondorf doesn't scale to Majora, because there is NO reason for it. By virtue of doing NOTHING on a comparable level. This has been said numerous times now. Scaling because the ToP should be stronger is not an argument, it's an assumption.

Can people please read before posting arguments that have been addressed, and at least follow up?

 

[ShadMorgen]

25 petatons is multi-continent?

The newest yield is >1 exaton, which is on the low end of Multi-Continent.

Wasn't aware of the updated calc. So Majora and FD get put at Multi-Continent. Again, nothing still scales to them.

 

[ShadMorgen]

There is a reason that Ganon is an inconclusive match for Majora, and that Ganon would win with the full triforce. No offense, but you are far from the first to say that Majora=/= Ganon.

I've seen that I believe. Literally all speculation. Failed scaling. A VS thread is NOT proof.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Well, I am going to bed. It would be very much appreciated if this thread could not be bombarded and considered finished whilst I sleep, thank you very much.