LoZ Downgrades

[ShadMorgen]

Alright. You got me there. Kudos to you, Shad. ALBW still holds up though, and Demise's statement still holds up. You've got to remember that this is a composite Link, and not just a single Link throughout the games. All of his feats are taken together, and meshed into a "Knight-of" character.

ALBW was still a wish, and not a direct power boost.

Demise's comment is still vague as shit, I'll quote what I said in the OP.

"Demise is only planet level through incredibly vague wording in the Hyrule Historia. "Destroy" could be anything from upsetting the natural order, to lifewiping, to planet busting. You don't get to just naturally assume it's a direct planet bust when there is nothing on this level. Given the fact he needed to build an army to attack? One of the quotes is "...who commands enough power to destroy the world,...". Commands. Y'know, like an army? Which is a FAR more logical assumption than him being able to straight up planet bust."

Yeah, I assumed it wasn't sarcasm, you seem more mature than that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But again, Peach was a wish, and she still got the same level of power boost that Link did. And while vague, it's the only thing we've got. Most of our Undertale stats are vague, but we have to do our best to attempt a level of power. And believe me, it resulted in some crazy boosts.

Destroying the world, I'd have to say would imply planet busting. How many times has DBZ said "Oh No! Vegeta/Frieza/Cell/Buu is going to destroy the planet!" Ravage would be a better word for the other two. And forgive me if I said this already, but Saitama's boost came from a statement as well.

 

[ShadMorgen]

"Not to mention, the Gauntlet weapons are COMPLETELY non-canon, even to the HW canon, never mind the rest. You obtain them in Adventure Mode, completely optional, nothing to do with the main story, which brings us to the next point."
This is composite link....also as been stated before the triforce has reality warping abilities(to a certain extent)

other than that the feat resulted 2.6 tetons or large planet level

and does not the calc say "As the screen/map/planet flips counter clockwise, Link's body is moving clockwise" i am confused what does that have to do with the camera.

I must have missed this, my apologies. Please stop trying to repeat back the results of the calculation to me, I know them well. What I am addressing is that the calc is based entirely on the fact that the whole rotation thing is simply the camera spinning. Read my original post and a few of the early ones in this thread, please.

 

[Eldritch_abomination]

"Not to mention, the Gauntlet weapons are COMPLETELY non-canon, even to the HW canon, never mind the rest. You obtain them in Adventure Mode, completely optional, nothing to do with the main story, which brings us to the next point." This is composite link....also as been stated before the triforce has reality warping abilities(to a certain extent)
other than that the feat resulted 2.6 tetons or large planet level

and does not the calc say "As the screen/map/planet flips counter clockwise, Link's body is moving clockwise" i am confused what does that have to do with the camera.

I must have missed this, my apologies. Please stop trying to repeat back the results of the calculation to me, I know them well. What I am addressing is that the calc is based entirely on the fact that the whole rotation thing is simply the camera spinning. Read my original post and a few of the early ones in this thread, please.

http://i.imgur.com/KOTmcDK.png http://i.imgur.com/CgcLhFr.png http://i.imgur.com/qa9ED6j.png http://i.imgur.com/DMdMWqZ.png http://i.imgur.com/6CCMKnH.png http://i.imgur.com/AofNLrT.png http://i.imgur.com/h3tnLtT.png http://i.imgur.com/PUZWO5o.png http://i.imgur.com/R9TGfac.png http://i.imgur.com/LHCbZQM.png http://i.imgur.com/SbrFtdy.png http://i.imgur.com/hBPz4yH.png http://i.imgur.com/8BBrW6a.png http://i.imgur.com/kmWjSUZ.png http://i.imgur.com/19MfZSP.png http://i.imgur.com/nrJkTGh.png http://i.imgur.com/ZtdskzH.png http://i.imgur.com/F1jotjd.png http://i.imgur.com/KdOGfhk.png http://i.imgur.com/P8rLNRe.png http://i.imgur.com/PjCdpsp.png http://i.imgur.com/6jxh5Mw.png http://i.imgur.com/pqPBgoM.png http://i.imgur.com/GdU9WSV.png

For anyone who does not know what shadmorgen means by camera spinning

 

[WarriorWare]

Weird how this got highlighted, given that I've tried to tell these people the exact same thing and got laughed at multiple times.

 

[ShadMorgen]

But again, Peach was a wish, and she still got the same level of power boost that Link did. And while vague, it's the only thing we've got. Most of our Undertale stats are vague, but we have to do our best to attempt a level of power. And believe me, it resulted in some crazy boosts.
Destroying the world, I'd have to say would imply planet busting. How many times has DBZ said "Oh No! Vegeta/Frieza/Cell/Buu is going to destroy the planet!" Ravage would be a better word for the other two. And forgive me if I said this already, but Saitama's boost came from a statement as well.

Just because Peach also got it does not mean both are correct. I don't actually know that Peach feat, 'nor do I care for Undertale in any way, so those comparisons are completely wasted on me I am afraid. I'm am addressing LoZ right now. The problem is that Demise HAD to build an army to attack and take over the land. Different context gives different results. Those DBZ characters were LEGIT planetary threats, and them detroying the planets would not be out of the level of powers for that verse. Piccolo destroyed a moon, couldn't do shit against Vegeta and crew, Frieza straight up destroyed Planet Vegeta, and Cell was a greater theat than he ever was.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. The DBZ thing was a long shot. And he only had to build up an army to fight Hylia's, who by herself was supposed to be almost as strong as he was. He couldn't have done it alone. And wishing should count towards reality warping. Hencewhy we and every other battle site have Genie and Jafar as high as they are.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And @Warrior, yours got shut down because you were regarding the canonicity of the calc, and we all knew it wasn't canon. This is regarding the legitimacy of the calc, which isn't even the main point anymore and we're debating about Demise and the Triforce.

 

[ShadMorgen]

http://i.imgur.com/KOTmcDK.png http://i.imgur.com/CgcLhFr.png http://i.imgur.com/qa9ED6j.png http://i.imgur.com/DMdMWqZ.png http://i.imgur.com/6CCMKnH.png http://i.imgur.com/AofNLrT.png http://i.imgur.com/h3tnLtT.png http://i.imgur.com/PUZWO5o.png http://i.imgur.com/R9TGfac.png http://i.imgur.com/LHCbZQM.png http://i.imgur.com/SbrFtdy.png http://i.imgur.com/hBPz4yH.png http://i.imgur.com/8BBrW6a.png http://i.imgur.com/kmWjSUZ.png http://i.imgur.com/19MfZSP.png http://i.imgur.com/nrJkTGh.png http://i.imgur.com/ZtdskzH.png http://i.imgur.com/F1jotjd.png http://i.imgur.com/KdOGfhk.png http://i.imgur.com/P8rLNRe.png http://i.imgur.com/PjCdpsp.png http://i.imgur.com/6jxh5Mw.png http://i.imgur.com/pqPBgoM.png http://i.imgur.com/GdU9WSV.png

For anyone who does not know what shadmorgen means by camera spinning

No need to link all of that, you could have specified what in the calc you were talking about. Longass quotes link that just make it a pain for everyone to read.

Here is a quicker more direct comparison.

The feat with camera hijinks.

The feat with the camera not spinning.

Please notice how the sky does not rotate when the camera doesn't.

 

[WarriorWare]

And @Warrior, yours got shut down because you were regarding the canonicity of the calc, and we all knew it wasn't canon. This is regarding the legitimacy of the calc, which isn't even the main point anymore and we're debating about Demise and the Triforce.

I, too, was questioning the legitimacy of the calc. I, too, said that it was a blatant camera screw.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

This, also, isn't relevant to this debate. Stop.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Yeah. The DBZ thing was a long shot. And he only had to build up an army to fight Hylia's, who by herself was supposed to be almost as strong as he was. He couldn't have done it alone. And wishing should count towards reality warping. Hencewhy we and every other battle site have Genie and Jafar as high as they are.

If Demise was that powerful, nothing would have stopped him plowing through their army. Remember, he NEEDED the Triforce to do what he wanted to, why would he if he was that powerful?

Wishing is absolutelya form of reality warping, the problem with Triforce wishing is that it needs to be slowly called down, then for you to place your hand on it and make the wish. And you can be beaten to it. Remember the Wind Waker finale? It's not just an instant reality warp like Genie and Jafar.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

In that case, my bad. I only remembered the argument about canon. However, the feat was meant for the camera to do that, as evidenced in the trailer. There's a lot of tings you can do in a game that aren't supposed to be manipulated. I could argue that Red from Pokemon can walk through walls via an action replay, or all the things Minecraft Steve can do with mods. The non sky flip could've also just been a glitch

 

[ShadMorgen]

In that case, my bad. I only remembered the argument about canon. However, the feat was meant for the camera to do that, as evidenced in the trailer. There's a lot of tings you can do in a game that aren't supposed to be manipulated. I could argue that Red from Pokemon can walk through walls via an action replay, or all the things Minecraft Steve can do with mods. The non sky flip could've also just been a glitch

The problem with those, aside from being strawmen and completely irrelevant to the current debate, is that those are done with completely external devices. If the feat WAS legit, the sky would be spinning as it's done. It's poor, I agree. Like I said before:

"It's just far more likely that Link is just slamming it into the floor and ripping it up. Too much against it. Why does it only hit enemies in a...what, 15 foot radius? Why is Link able to fling it around like a light weight, yet suddenly increase to the point where it is easier for him to supposedly flip the planet than yank it out of the ground?"

Later on I specified that it is much more likely it's just the debris that damages them. The whole feat is iffy. If you don't mind, could you please stop drawing up comparisons to verses aside from this one? You have my thanks.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If Demise was that powerful, nothing would have stopped him plowing through their army. Remember, he NEEDED the Triforce to do what he wanted to, why would he if he was that powerful?

Wishing is absolutelya form of reality warping, the problem with Triforce wishing is that it needs to be slowly called down, then for you to place your hand on it and make the wish. And you can be beaten to it. Remember the Wind Waker finale? It's not just an instant reality warp like Genie and Jafar.

It would've stopped him from plowing through Hylia though. The triforce would've been needed to stop her. Also, have you read the one-shot manga of Skyward? Actuall question. It might have some explaining of it. And there was instant wishing in ALTTP at the end, and possibly OOT with Ganondorf's wish. Or ALBW.

 

[Salavtore]

Why was your account made today and this is the immediete thing you post?


Also, on topic, would you keep link's stats to remain the same or have it all lowered to some degree?

 

[ShadMorgen]

It would've stopped him from plowing through Hylia though. The triforce would've been needed to stop her. Also, have you read the one-shot manga of Skyward? Actuall question. It might have some explaining of it. And there was instant wishing in ALTTP at the end, and possibly OOT with Ganondorf's wish. Or ALBW.

You might get a chuckle out of this, but a few days ago in a debate with a few friends of mine I actually used the prequel manga as canon to back up points. Turns out? It's completely non canon and just speculation. Exact same category as the other manga. And yeah, I have read it, I have the HH.

ALTTP he has to touch the Triforce.

OoT we do not see, but Ganon had to go to the Sacred Realm to touch it and make his wish.

ALBW they have to touch it. Zelda even specifies it has to be touched.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Why was your account made today and this is the immediete thing you post?

Also, on topic, would you keep link's stats to remain the same or have it all lowered to some degree?

Is this directed to me? Not that my reasons have ANYTHING to do with the current debate, but I have had this account for a while, I just haven't posted here.

There are other stats I would like to address, yes, however I would like to stay on topic. I also have problems with numerous other Zelda feats and scaling abuse, but I will deal with what I have specified in my original post for now.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The problem with those, aside from being strawmen and completely irrelevant to the current debate, is that those are done with completely external devices. If the feat WAS legit, the sky would be spinning as it's done. It's poor, I agree. Like I said before:

"It's just far more likely that Link is just slamming it into the floor and ripping it up. Too much against it. Why does it only hit enemies in a...what, 15 foot radius? Why is Link able to fling it around like a light weight, yet suddenly increase to the point where it is easier for him to supposedly flip the planet than yank it out of the ground?"

Later on I specified that it is much more likely it's just the debris that damages them. The whole feat is iffy. If you don't mind, could you please stop drawing up comparisons to verses aside from this one? You have my thanks.

I'll oblige your request, even though it severely inhibits me. And game mechanics for the 15 foot radius.. I was going to do an arceus comparison, but you told me to not, so I won't. It would make more sense for the flip (as unlikely as that sounds) to be planet level because Link would have to somehow get the landmass back into its right place, and the debris didn't hit all of them, only those in the closer radius.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You might get a chuckle out of this, but a few days ago in a debate with a few friends of mine I actually used the prequel manga as canon to back up points. Turns out? It's completely non canon and just speculation. Exact same category as the other manga. And yeah, I have read it, I have the HH.

ALTTP he has to touch the Triforce.

OoT we do not see, but Ganon had to go to the Sacred Realm to touch it and make his wish.

ALBW they have to touch it. Zelda even specifies it has to be touched.

Ha. I did get a chuckle out of it.

Secondly though, for vs battles debates, we assume it's already in their (Link and Ganon's) posession. Like swords or guns.

 

[Salavtore]

Well yes it was directed at you. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Message_Wall:ShadMorge Because you joined today 4 hours ago and the admins don't like people using new or possible extra accounts to get away with certain things here. So, just making sure your account isn't one of these.


Anyway, aside your problems with the feats, the camera flipping is considered a feat. As, if you check clouds profile, we consider the typhon summon a legit feat. Though his is more detailed.

Also i wouldn;'t consider comparing the wish making via tri force among other games, they always change each time. like in WW you had to touch it and say your wish outloud. while in other games, it would read your heart, and such.

 

[Eldritch_abomination]

Well yes it was directed at you. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Message_Wall:ShadMorge Because you joined today 4 hours ago and the admins don't like people using new or possible extra accounts to get away with certain things here. So, just making sure your account isn't one of these.

Anyway, aside your problems with the feats, the camera flipping is considered a feat. As, if you check clouds profile, we consider the typhon summon a legit feat. Though his is more detailed.

Also i wouldn;'t consider comparing the wish making via tri force among other games, they always change each time. like in WW you had to touch it and say your wish outloud. while in other games, it would read your heart, and such

you misinterpreted what shadMorten said, when he said he was on the wiki for a while he probably meant as a wiki lurker only making this account to address this problem that is bothering him....

 

[WarriorWare]

I could have sworn the prequel manga was right there in Hyrule Hystoria. I'll have to check again.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Ha. I did get a chuckle out of it.
Secondly though, for vs battles debates, we assume it's already in their (Link and Ganon's) posession. Like swords or guns.

The problem is, that makes perfect sense if you are arguing for the stat boost. Not summoning it's physical form and making a single wish. It's not a straight up weapon, like say, to give an equal example, the Biggoron Sword, or the Fairy Bow.

 

[ShadMorgen]

I could have sworn the prequel manga was right there in Hyrule Hystoria. I'll have to check again.

It is At the back. Last 30-40 pages.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The wish could always be used to buff the Master Sword, or Ganon's anything, or Link's anything. Or to just straight up reality warp the enemy away.

 

[Eldritch_abomination]

I could have sworn the prequel manga was right there in Hyrule Hystoria. I'll have to check again.

It is but not connected to the other 3 timelines....

 

[WarriorWare]

Eh? Doesn't the whole "three timelines" thing not happen until OoT, which is way after Skyward Sword?

 

[ShadMorgen]

Well yes it was directed at you. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Message_Wall:ShadMorge Because you joined today 4 hours ago and the admins don't like people using new or possible extra accounts to get away with certain things here. So, just making sure your account isn't one of these.

Anyway, aside your problems with the feats, the camera flipping is considered a feat. As, if you check clouds profile, we consider the typhon summon a legit feat. Though his is more detailed.

Also i wouldn;'t consider comparing the wish making via tri force among other games, they always change each time. like in WW you had to touch it and say your wish outloud. while in other games, it would read your heart, and such.

Nah, I was just lurking. It's just today I set an avatar and made a first post, I got that post on my wall then.

Please link this summon. Like I have repeated a few times, we are debating THIS particular feat. Whether other examples are correct or not is up for debate here.

Don't understand what you are saying at the end here to be honest. What point are you trying to make?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes. SS is about 3 games prior to OoT (Skyward, then Minish Cap, then Four Swords, then Oot), and centuries prior

 

[ShadMorgen]

The wish could always be used to buff the Master Sword, or Ganon's anything, or Link's anything. Or to just straight up reality warp the enemy away.

Absolutely. The problem is that he would have to go up to and make the wish. Do you now understand why debating using the full Triforce as a wish granting item is very awkward?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I understand, but standard battle assumptions state that it's a complete arsenal, and in Link's and Ganon's case, this is the complete triforce.

 

[ShadMorgen]

Debating the canocity of the prequel manga is entirely pointless. It is NOT canon, and has never been confirmed to be.

 

[WarriorWare]

Really? I would assume that its inclusion in Hyrule Hystoria would be confirmation of its canonicity.

Cal, that's not really true. Standard battle assumptions give each character their standard equipment unless stated otherwise in the thread. Link has to dig into two other characters' standard equipment to get the full Triforce, and so does Ganon.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not in Skyward. He has it fully there, w/out the help of Zelda and Ganon (who doesn't even exist yet), and same case as ALTTP (probably. Not 100% certain about that one). And since this is Composite Link...

Also, Ganon has it for the most of the parts of the downfall timeline.

 

[Eldritch_abomination]

Really? I would assume that its inclusion in Hyrule Hystoria would be confirmation of its canonicity.
Cal, that's not really true. Standard battle assumptions give each character their standard equipment unless stated otherwise in the thread. Link has to dig into two other characters' standard equipment to get the full Triforce, and so does Ganon.

If that manga was canon then it should have been shown at the beginning of the timeline

but the manga was shown at the end of the page not connected to any of the three timelines

so I dunno what that's supposed to mean? A nod to the manga?

 

[Eldritch_abomination]

Not in Skyward. He has it fully there, w/out the help of Zelda and Ganon (who doesn't even exist yet), and same case as ALTTP (probably. Not 100% certain about that one). And since this is Composite Link...

well Zelda did exist and ganon=demise

 

[Metabro]

It's been stated before that Link left the Triforce behind when he chased after Ghirahim. He did not have it in his possession for his fight against Demise

In ALttP, the Triforce was sitting in a separate room from where Link and Ganon were fighting, so he did not possess it then either

 

[WarriorWare]

Sooo, in other words, giving him the Full Triforce would be like giving Deadpool the Carbonadium Sword, but worse.

Or is it more like giving Lex Luthor the Orange Lantern Ring?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's been stated before that Link left the Triforce behind when he chased after Ghirahim. He did not have it in his possession for his fight against Demise
In ALttP, the Triforce was sitting in a separate room from where Link and Ganon were fighting, so he did not possess it then either

Not what I meant. I meant that wielded it before. And Link did psess it post-battle in ALTTP to restore Hyrule. That's the whole epilogue.