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LoZ Downgrades

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Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Very true, and that likely shouldn't affect Composite Link, but MM Link is the same as TP Link, and the Hyrule Historia seems to suggest Link needed the Fierce Deity Mask to defeat Majora during their final confrontation in the moon, which is kind of weird if the ToC is assumed to be >>> the Fierce Deity Mask.
Click to expand...
While it isn't primary canon in the slightest, the Majora's Mask manga gives us a good example of this. Link can't do anything to the Mask, as seen here, and the next few pages. (I apologise for the poor fanlations, I can take pics of my own physical copies if you want later) When he puts the FDM on, he proceeds to decimate Majora's Mask.

Not canon, but worth bringing it up as it shows us something of which we only have a statement to go by. (And that manga is incredible!)
 
ShadMorgen said:
While it isn't primary canon in the slightest, the Majora's Mask manga gives us a good example of this. Link can't do anything to the Mask, as seen here, and the next few pages. (I apologise for the poor fanlations, I can take pics of my own physical copies if you want later) When he puts the FDM on, he proceeds to decimate Majora's Mask.

Not canon, but worth bringing it up as it shows us something of which we only have a statement to go by. (And that manga is incredible!)
Click to expand...
A bit off topic, but the MM manga is pretty damn solid. It also gave Majora and the Deity a nice, if sorta unquantifiable buff.
 
Okay, this thread has gotten way off topic. From now on, could we NOT discuss the Golden Goddesses, as they have nothing to do with this. They left the Triforce behind when the finished the realm, that is as far as their relation to this debate goes. I'll start by addressing the current Triforce arguments.

First of all, my points still stand about claiming the Triforce is "omnipotent" just because the HH said that. No one has been arguing that the Triforce ISN'T the strongest artifact in the Zelda world. It is through feats. And only when it is complete. The Chaos Emeralds comparison that Metabro made earlier is incredibly sound. The individual Triforce pieces are exceptionally weaker when seperated. They resonate when completely together and massively increase in power. How strong are they? We can only scale their power to the highest level that their wielder's have shown through feats and CORRECT scaling. This puts them to city-island level. The quickest example I can think of is that in Wind Waker, Ganondorf destroys an island, and Link defeats him in combat in this game. (Yes I know that mightn't directly be island level, but it's the quickest example I can grab right now, and there is other scaling that puts him at this level) There aren't feats above this level in LoZ that either Link or Ganondorf scale to.

I have seen people saying that having access to the full Triforce means that this allows them a stat boost of planetary levels, the same as the Triforce's power. This is a joke. Zelda even goes on board to say that ""For while the supreme power of the Triforce was created by gods, all of its power can never be wielded by one. Knowing this power was her last and only hope, the goddess gave up her divine powers and her immortal form." — Zelda (Skyward Sword)". What does this mean? It means that when the Triforce is fully assembled, it doesn't allow a stat boost. This is why touching it's physical form and making a single wish is a must, and afterwards it . The full Triforce is a single, reality warping wish and it splits after, retrurning to the Sacred Realm presumably. The Triforce is an energy source for the world, this is why it is planet level to my understanding. As seen in ALBW, when Lorule did not have their Triforce, their world started crumbling. Ravio heavily implies that the exact same fate would await Hyrule had Yuga managed to take their Triforce. "I wish the best for our kingdom. But by ruining Hyrule...? You'd bring the absolute worst in Lorule." — Ravio (A Link Between Worlds)

Tl;dr thus far: The Triforce individual parts do not grant stat boosts further than what they have shown. The complete Triforce grants a single planet level wish, then goes back to the Sacred Realm. Possessing it does NOT grant a planet level stat boost.

As has been said, the individual stat boosts alone do not show give a stat boost higher than anything they have shown. Link possessed the ToC and still needed the FDM to defeat Majora, who dropped the moon which yielded a multi-continetal blast.

From now on, if we could debate only using FACTS, it would be much appreciated.

I understand LoZ is a great verse to theorise and speculate over, and I have done so myself. However. Such things have NO place in VS debates. Leave the theories and speculation at the door please. Thank you. I feel we are really in progress to getting these characters to their correct tiers and power levels, and it would be great if we could get this finished soon.
 
The planet flipping can be debunked by one thing the lighting. If there is evidence for the lighting to shift into a darker tone I'll believe it which there isn't.
 
The great ZZ said:
@ShadMorgen
You think this thread is done now?
Click to expand...
I'd like to give it a little bit longer to see if people have legitimate arguments, it wouldn't be fair to call this completely done so fast since I posted my previous points.
 
The great ZZ said:
@ShadMorgen
Great work on that LoZ Revision thread.
Click to expand...
Haha thanks, it was nothing really, just a few minutes of dedicating time to actually looking into it. I could tell simply from looking at it that it wasn't, I think several could, I just needed concrete proof that they would accept, since they refused to accept the other evidence that Metabro provided. I remembered the Composer Brother's saying mentioning time manipulation anyway, I just couldn't take to them in my own game since I only have a completion save file. Ah well, it's done now, but we should get back on topic to current debate here.
 
Even if the planet-flip was actually just him taking a piece out of the ground, it still doesn't have a shadow effect even then. By the logic of "no shadows = no planet flip" then Link doesn't do anything at all the entire feat other than stick his arm in the ground and flail about.

You quoted something about people not being able to wield the full power of the Triforce, but I'm pretty sure Ganon has acquired the full Triforce before. In fact I'm pretty sure Ganon uses the Triforce to do multiple feats in ALttP.

About the Triforce having the power of the Goddesses

"In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was he exposed, subdued, and brought to justice. Yet... By some divine prank, he, too, had been blessed with the chosen power of the gods. His abiding hatred and lust for power turned to purest malice..."

Quote from a Sage in Twilight Princess.

As for why Link needed the Fierce Deity Mask. He was a literal child? Not only that but his ToC is based around, well, Courage, not power. He doesn't get a boost from the ToC. He gets a boost from becoming strong enough to beat Ganon, who explicitly is powerful because he has the ToP.
 
Even after all this, still doesn't change the fact that Demise wasn't proven to not be planet level, which wouldn't change the tiers at all.
 
Debatable, but I'd argue the Master Sword does scale to the HW gauntlets anyway. It isn't in the "main" universe but it was stated it connects to different parts on the main timeline. What this suggests to me is that the characters from the HW universe aren't apart of the main timeline, but the characters they meet through the portals and such in the plot are the main timeline characters.
 
What about the official statement that Demise was strong enough to destroy the world? Wouldn't composite Link scale from that?
 
To Ant, yes. But people are arguing hyperbole, and that not even Demise should be planet, despite the fact that lore gets people upgraded all the time. Just look at the recent Bayonetta upgrades purely on lore. And they're far larger than any Zelda upgrade.

And to Homestuck, an aesthetic pass on a childrens game to give a cool looking attack shouldn't be the main point of the downgrade. You're arguing semantics.
 
Well, I would agree with you regarding that. Maybe the world-flip cannot be used, but Link should logically scale from Demise.
 
True. I'm with you for the Demise scaling. I still support the world-flip, as semantics are the only thing being argued for its downgrade though.
 
Okay. Let's wait to see what ChaosTheory123 thinks.
 
Alright. For the record, I believe him with the pieces giving power. Remember, it's what turns G-dorf into Ganon in OoT, giving the 2nd hardest boss battle in the game (I HATED Bongo Bongo, and I didn't have the lens of truth), and gives him the power to slay the water sage in TP.
 
Antvasima said:
What about the official statement that Demise was strong enough to destroy the world? Wouldn't composite Link scale from that?
Click to expand...
ShadMorgen already addressed this more than once I believe. It says he "commands enough power to destroy the world". Command is an extremely weird word to use if it's specifying actual abilities. It's most likely referencing the army he commands rather. Even then, the statement "destroy the world" is SO vague as to what it means. It could range from life wiping, to destroying the surface land on the globe, or just busting the whole planet.

Also, Demise has NO feats to back this statement up. You can't even argue the idea of upgrading it based purely on lore since Hyrule Historia is generally considered secondary canon anyway.

Demise was killed by Skyloft falling on him, an island. That just screams toward him not being planet level, yet people still seem to think otherwise because of a vague statement from a secondary canon book, and not even the actual game, and because they think the full triforce gives Link a stat boost, which Shad already debunked earlier. It all relies on assumptions, which generally don't have a place in Vs Debating.
 
The real cal howard said:
Alright. For the record, I believe him with the pieces giving power.
Click to expand...
NO ONE who wants LoZ downgraded argued against this tho. ShadMorgen has even gone on record to state that boosts from the triforce pieces are legit. What was being argued was that you can't simply divide DC evenly for each piece of the triforce since the full triforce is only considered planet level because it grants wishes that can go on that level.
 
Well, "enough power to destroy the world" sounds pretty straightforward and unambiguous to me.

If they meant armies, they could have stated "conquer the world", and if they meant "life-wipe", they could have stated "raze the world".

Still, if there are contradictions with canon, that is admittedly a problem.
 
Destroy the world seems pretty straightforward to me. Especially seeing how everyone but Girahim and himself are mooks. Destroy the world would very unlikely mean life wiping, because if anything, the world would flourish more without human intervention. Or more likely, fiction likes to say "destroy mankind." Surface destroying would also be unlikely, as that's not common in fiction, and there's already underground creatures that live in that game, and Demise wants to get rid of everything.

Demise has no feats because he's there for one boss battle. That's it. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of tier 5 and 3 Final Fantasy final bosses that fit the bill too. There's a crudton of featless characters on this wiki. Some are in tier 1 and 0.

Lore and secondary canon has a place here. Once again, look at the Bayonetta upgrades. We disregarded a lot of the Cell not being a solar system buster due to secondary canon confirming it too. And we're discussing the Marvel speeds due to secondary canon.

No. The imprisoned was killed by Skyloft falling on him. A FAR weaker version of Demise. Why else do you think Girahim had to give the imprisoned Zelda's soul to make his boss whole again? Demise's battle had nothing to do with the trifore either, as Shad himself stated that Link left it back at Skyloft when he went to go finish the job
 
The Bayonetta upgrades weren't based on secondary canon. They were based on actual statements and legitimate lore pieces from the game. I also plan on making a thread one day to put it back where it was for being a blatant outlier, but that's besides the point.

NOWHERE is it said that the Imprisoned was a weaker version of Demise. The game legit calls the Imprisoned "an embodiment" (which literally means "physical/tangible" form) of Demise
 
HomestuckLover1 said:
The real cal howard said:
Alright. For the record, I believe him with the pieces giving power.
Click to expand...
NO ONE who wants LoZ downgraded argued against this tho. ShadMorgen has even gone on record to state that boosts from the triforce pieces are legit. What was being argued was that you can't simply divide DC evenly for each piece of the triforce since the full triforce is only considered planet level because it grants wishes that can go on that level.
Click to expand...
Really? Because I remember someone comparing them to the Dragon Balls saying that they're useless on their own. For the record, I'm being serious. I remember someone saying that. The tier 5 on Ganon's profile is because of the fact that he had the full triforce in the Downfall Timeline.
 
HomestuckLover1 said:
The Bayonetta upgrades weren't based on secondary canon. They were based on actual statements and legitimate lore pieces from the game. I also plan on making a thread one day to put it back where it was for being a blatant outlier, but that's besides the point.
NOWHERE is it said that the Imprisoned was a weaker version of Demise. The game legit calls the Imprisoned "an embodiment" (which literally means "physical/tangible" form) of Demise
Click to expand...
Then why are they two different beings/forms. And for the Bayo things, that's why I put the lore and there
 
NO ONE who wants LoZ downgraded argued against this tho. ShadMorgen has even gone on record to state that boosts from the triforce pieces are legit. What was being argued was that you can't simply divide DC evenly for each piece of the triforce since the full triforce is only considered planet level because it grants wishes that can go on that level.
Really? Because I remember someone comparing them to the Dragon Balls saying that they're useless on their own. For the record, I'm being serious. I remember someone saying that. The tier 5 on Ganon's profile is because of the fact that he had the full triforce in the Downfall Timeline.

One, I'm pretty sure they used the Chaos Emeralds as a comparison, and two, it's just a comparison. No one is arguing that they give no stat boost whatsoever.

Then he's planet level via one wish from the full triforce. This doesn't apply to his physical DC.
 
Then why are they two different beings/forms. And for the Bayo things, that's why I put the lore and there

Different forms with different abilities. Doesn't indicate a DC difference
 
Despite the fact that he used it to corrupt the Sarcred Realm into the Dark World in the downfall timeline and still held the triforce even while imprisoned.
 
HomestuckLover1 said:
The real cal howard said:
And for the Bayo things, that's why I put the lore and there
Click to expand...
You used it to make an comparison that makes no sense.
Click to expand...
I stated that lore made them 3-A, and lore here, regardless of the source, made Zelda characters 5-B.
 
Even if the planet-flip was actually just him taking a piece out of the ground, it still doesn't have a shadow effect even then. By the logic of "no shadows = no planet flip" then Link doesn't do anything at all the entire feat other than stick his arm in the ground and flail about.

Because that is exactly what happens. You haven't refuted anything, only solidified the points made.

You quoted something about people not being able to wield the full power of the Triforce, but I'm pretty sure Ganon has acquired the full Triforce before. In fact I'm pretty sure Ganon uses the Triforce to do multiple feats in ALttP.

Why are you not linking anything then? He doesn't. The only one who uses the Triforce in A Link to the Past is Link, who uses it to undo Ganon's evil.

About the Triforce having the power of the Goddesses

"In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was he exposed, subdued, and brought to justice. Yet... By some divine prank, he, too, had been blessed with the chosen power of the gods. His abiding hatred and lust for power turned to purest malice..."

Quote from a Sage in Twilight Princess.

It might help if you provided the context, and an actual link to this. I will, to show why this is an incorrect use of this quote, which is out of context.

They do say this, but in referral to only his Triforce of Power, which revealed itself to him, when they attempted to execute him. It's why he survived, and had to banish him to the Twilight Realm. They are in no way referencing the full Triforce, this is the first time Ganondorf in this timeline obtained his ToP.

As for why Link needed the Fierce Deity Mask. He was a literal child? Not only that but his ToC is based around, well, Courage, not power. He doesn't get a boost from the ToC. He gets a boost from becoming strong enough to beat Ganon, who explicitly is powerful because he has the ToP.

So now you are arguing that the ToC DOESN'T give as large a boost as the ToP? And that all the pieces are NOT equal? This is the opposite of progress. He had the ToC, and was powerful. Majora was a greater threat than anything else, this is backed up by him dropping the moon, whose detonation was powerful enough to yield a multi-continental blast. NOTHING any incarnation of Ganondorf has done is even remotely close to this.


Even after all this, still doesn't change the fact that Demise wasn't proven to not be planet level, which wouldn't change the tiers at all.

Demise being at that level, is by an obviously hyperbole, secondary canon, outlier statement. Demise has displayed NOTHING close to planet level, at any moment. The only way this "wasn't changed", is by you REFUSING to accept the facts here. Show me actual evidence of Demise being planet level. Demise in the present timeline during Skyward Sword was killed by an island being dropped on him. Fi even specifies that he was "eradicated". Meaning he was destroyed completely.


Debatable, but I'd argue the Master Sword does scale to the HW gauntlets anyway. It isn't in the "main" universe but it was stated it connects to different parts on the main timeline. What this suggests to me is that the characters from the HW universe aren't apart of the main timeline, but the characters they meet through the portals and such in the plot are the main timeline characters.

No. The whole game is non canon. So you are trying to scale a non canon weapon, from a non canon game mode, from a non canon game to the canon Master Sword? Do you actually have any proof for ANY of this? Just because characters who are in the main games show up does NOT make them canon in this. You simply cannot scale a weapon over another on nothing other than Author's Intent, which this isn't even. There have ALWAYS been stronger weapons than the Master Sword, as far back as OoT, which gave us the Biggoron's Sword.


'J'ust look at the recent Bayonetta upgrades purely on lore. And they're far larger than any Zelda upgrade.

I have PERSONALLY told you this already, near the top of this thread. Other VS "upgrades" are. Not. Proof.


'O'kay. Let's wait to see what ChaosTheory123 thinks.

Do you not actually have any proof or anything to add yourself? Waiting for someone else, who, by the way, every point he brought up has been directly refuted in case you didn't notice, is NOT the way to go in a debate.


'A'lright. For the record, I believe him with the pieces giving power. Remember, it's what turns G-dorf into Ganon in OoT, giving the 2nd hardest boss battle in the game (I HATED Bongo Bongo, and I didn't have the lens of truth), and gives him the power to slay the water sage in TP.

Still you are not linking proof that these are shows of power you are claiming they are. What feats does the Water Sage have that make them out to be as powerful as you are making them sound? How difficult you personally found a boss fight in the game does NOT contribute to their stats in any way. Furthermore, NO ONE has argued that the individual pieces do not grant them a stat boost, we are arguing that the individual pieces on their own are not as strong as Majora.


'D'espite the fact that he used it to corrupt the Sarcred Realm into the Dark World in the downfall timeline and still held the triforce even while imprisoned.

And still not providing links to these statements. Shiek explains why this happens to it in OoT, which is why it stays that way in ALttP, which is in the Downfall timeline. "The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects what is in the heart...the heart of one who enters it..." — Sheik (Ocarina of Time) and when she said "If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise." — Sheik (Ocarina of Time) . It's a passive ability of the Sacred Realm, not him using the Triforce. Please provide links instead of saying these things without checking.
 
From now on, if people could do the following, it would GREATLY help progress here:

>back their statements up

>not rely on hyperbole

>stop refusing to accept evidence because you don't like it

>not use theories and speculatio

>read the thread before trying to make arguments that have already been made and refuted

It would very much be appreciated. I am getting extremely tired of having to constantly repeat myself on these points.
 
@ShadMorge

  • We can see whirlwindspinning with the flippinganimation. Due to the added whirlwind effect, the flipping was obviously intended, and is not a "camera trick".
  • To have a truly composite Link, we must have the planet flipping feat.
  • The Triforce is described as an "omnipotent" power, and is therefore above anything else in the verse.
 
Do you not actually have any proof or anything to add yourself? Waiting for someone else, who, by the way, every point he brought up has been directly refuted in case you didn't notice, is NOT the way to go in a debate.

Watch your tone. I am not here to "debate". I am here to take care of this wiki by monitoring hundreds of edits a day, and helping to evaluating lots of different discussions at once. My attention to each single task is limited per definition.

The best way to do that is usually by listening to different people, not strictly one just arrived single-issue account. If I had consistently allowed massive changes from every single pushy new editor with an attitude or agenda, without waiting to hear out different viewpoints, the wiki would have featured considerably more inaccurate information than currently (And yes, I am well aware of that it already regrettably features considerable amounts of it. Our staff is not informed about every franchise, and does not have unlimited time and energy to fact-check everything).

ChaosTheory123 is a well respected OBD veteran and calculator. He has provided very sensible input on previous occasions. I would prefer to read what he has to say, and get some kind of agreement and collaboration between the involved parties. Your current condescending tone is not doing a good job of helping out in that respect.
 
That said, I am not averse to changing the profiles, but I have to make sure that we are not making a mistake. To that end, patiently waiting for more input seems appropriate in this case.
 
I apologise, I did not intend to come across as condescending towards you, I assumed that with your inputs you were here to debate, I misinterpreted your posts, and for that, I apologise.

I know who ChaosTheory123 is, he has many, many good calculations, I have used some as evidence for LoZ characters actual power levels myself. However. He came across just as condescending, if not more, whilst I treated him with nothing but respect, as I have everyone else on this site thus far, even telling someone who asked if the thread was done that it should be left longer, so other people could get their arguments in. Whatever respect he has on a completely unaffiliated VS site, should not mean for him to get special treatment. That's just pure honesty.


If I come across as condescending, it's honestly because of how many times I have had to repeatedly refute the same arguments, whilst finding correct quotes and link them because of people who half use them without backing statements up. It's getting a bit grating, and starting to feel like we are going in circles. Every time a point is debunked, someone else half brings it up because they didn't catch up on the thread. I have tried multiple times to express in my posts for people to PLEASE read the thread, and provide links to what they are saying.
 
Okay then. Apology accepted.

In my case, it is difficult to recall all the information from many different issues going on concurrently, especially for long threads such as this.

Anyway, beyond scaling composite Link from Majora's High 6-A or 5-C feat, what other changes are you looking for, specifically?
 
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