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Low 2-C Mario: In The Final

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Dino Ranger Black might respond later, but he's probably pretty exhausted, but I did ask him to take his time if needed.
 
Even if we aren't "relying" on him, considering he is an important supporter we should wait for his opinion a bit more.
 
Dino Ranger Black is knowledgeable, but his messages here make me doubt if he read all the arguments or even read any arguments.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm honestly burned out and honestly don't care whether or not Universal upgrades get approved, but I do agree that maybe revaluating the tiers for the mid tier bosses to find their own consistent feats rather than being scaled from Mario or Bowser would be something if Mario gets upgraded. But Grand Stars do amp their physical stats, and speed and have their own consistent Universal feats. So those physically amped should be universal physically. Saying, "None of those other bosses destroyed the universes" could be argued for a bunch of other characters who are "Comparable if not superior to others who do have universal feats."

I just vehemently disagree with Matt about downgrading Mario to anything less than Tier 4 or Massively FTL+ based on the countless and innumerable feats on these levels that are very consistent with the lore. Especially since Dreamy Luigi's case, he actually does physically sneeze away star constellations on multiple occasions.
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Anyway, I am leaning towards agreeing with Medeus. He seems to have the most balanced and well-considered take here.

I would prefer if DRB could give input, given his history of reliability, but if he is too busy, I suppose that there isn't much for me to do in that regard.

Also, please take time off when necessary Medeus. You have real life to take care of as well, whereas I do not, and you are extremely important for this community, easily one of our most crucial, reliable, and rational staff members. We cannot afford to have you suffer a burnout.
 
Possible low 2-C can work imo. I just hope there’s no bias between users and staff, especially after seeing DRB and Ryu’s lack of arguments.
 
Well, I'm not burnout burnout, but I do appreciate the concern. Only just often burned out with certain topics. Hence why debating verses I'm actually less familiar with tend to be better for health then ones I am.
 
People need to stop constantly throwing shade at staff in these threads. It's annoying and does not build any trust or respect.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
People need to stop constantly throwing shade at staff in these threads. It's annoying and does not build any trust or respect.
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I hate to be that guy, but that happens because a few staff members disagreeing with something tend to close these kinds of threads, even if a huge amount of people disagree with them. It feels less like discussing and "try to convince the staff members because your input hardly matters otherwise" here. Let's not act like there isn't a reason why that happens. That's frustrating as hell for a lot of normal users. I agree we should try to remain civil, though.
 
Thank you to everybody who are trying to calm things down.

Anyway, the thing is that from the staff members' perspective, they are constantly working hard for free to help this community function properly, and if they do not accept the upgrades that fans of various franchises want to impose, they still recurrently get accused of power abuse and corruption. It can be very tiring in the long run.
 
Basically what Ploz said, I can vouch from my own experience
 
Rtxthegamer said:
Just woke up. This is just going back and forth, and its already been established that there are several Low 2-C feats, at least in Galaxy.

Bowser seems to only really stunned by the Galaxy Reactor for a bit, and touching it doesn't instantly incinerate him, so he is able to tank the heat, albeit slightly.

Looking back on the statements, Bowser did indeed survive the Low 2-C Blast, and he was in the epicenter of it, as stated in the guide book, "his immediate fate". However, it is also noted that it was "his narrow escape from a terrible fate". But in the cutscene, he wasn't like near death or anything, he was just shaken, this is even noted in the guidebook. So Base Bowser tanked the epicenter of the Low 2-C Blast, and he was shaken by it, but not near death. However, had he stayed too much longer, he likely would have died.

Mario can take on several bosses with Grand Stars, which are pretty much accepted to be Low 2-C, and he can trade blows with them.

To summarize, I propose that we just slap a Varies from Multi-Solar System level to at most Universe level+ for the base cast. Bowser tanked the epicenter of a Low 2-C blast, but if he stayed too much longer, he likely would've died. However, the fact that he didn't immediately die, nor was heavily injured by the initial explosion shows that he did tank it. And there are also the various other Low 2-C feats that were brought up. But these are definitely the higher end of the feats, since they can't no-sell the Low 2-C attacks. So this is what I'm proposing, otherwise this thread is gonna last forever.
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Antvasima said:
Thank you to everybody who are trying to calm things down.

Anyway, the thing is that from the staff members' perspective, they are constantly working hard for free to help this community function properly, and if they do not accept the upgrades that fans of various franchises want to impose, they still recurrently get accused of power abuse and corruption. It can be very tiring in the long run.
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Staff members are meant to regulate the conversation for it to remain civil. Their vs opinion has no reason to be greater than of an average user.
 
Staff members are also intended to evaluate content revision threads, and make judgements, in order to avoid that hordes of fans for every verse overwhelm all opposition with sheer numbers and vote all of the verses of this wiki to completely exaggerated and unreliable statistics.

That said, they are obviously intended to try to be reasonable, listen to, and be convinced by the arguments of the regular members.
 
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Antvasima said:
Staff members are also intended to evaluate content revision threads, and make judgements, in order to avoid that hordes of fans for every verse overwhelm all opposition with sheer numbers and vote all of the verses of this wiki to completely exaggerated and unreliable statistics.

That said, they are obviously intended to try to try to be reasonable, listen to, and be convinced by the arguments of the regular members.
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and if they aren’t reasonable?
 
Agreed. Further derailment and attempts to rip away the fundaments that have made it possible for the wiki to function at all during the last 6.5 years are not productive or desirable.
 
It can probably remain open, but the derailment should stop.
 
@Dino_Ranger_Black

We would appreciate if you could evaluate this thread. You can focus on DarkDragonMedeus' posts if you wish to save time.
 
"I went over why the feat is only planetary in my posts, please check them out. The world in question in the actual game is very clearly just the planet."

I believed that, my post was simply stating that under the assumption that it was universal it wouldn't be Low 2-C.

"It's not straightforward, as Bowser does not scale to the Grand Star (Merely being exposed to the energy of the Star Reactor burns him, even when "amped"."

Pretty sure heat resistance doesn't translate to physical durability here. He also cannot be defeated this way, and the only significant damage dealt to him is via Mario's own attacks. Also Bowser was only directly amped in Mario Galaxy 2.

"Bowser is only using a fraction o the full power of the Grand Star and certainly doesn't scale to the collapse of the reactor that destroys the universe."

Why is he only using a fraction of the Grand Star's full power? Mario is Bowser's archnemesis, he has every incentive to use the Grand Star's full power to defeat Mario. Same goes for any of the other Grand Star amped bosses.

"Secondly, Bowser scratching his head and waking up confused isn't evidence that he survived the reset. Rather, he just ended up on the Mushroom Kingdom again and is as confused as Mario and Peach. He has no physical evidence of injuries in him, and even if he had those could easily be from the can of whoop-ass Mario delivered to him rather from the universe blowing up."

He wasn't just groggy, he couldn't even stand up straight, which he was shown to still be able to do after Mario beat him up. Also if the argument is that Bowser's injuries from the universe's destruction were "reset", it would hardly make sense for him to still retain his injuries from Mario as well.

"Bowser getting reset in Galaxy should be banned to talk about as a feat given the dozens upon dozens of times it was brought up and its sheer illogicality, though then again I already proposed Matt something to fix that."

I don't recall this happening close to "dozens upon dozens of times" before, and would appreciate it if one of the main points of the thread is left to be evaluated and discussed properly.
 
GyroNutz said:
Pretty sure heat resistance doesn't translate to physical durability here. He also cannot be defeated this way, and the only significant damage dealt to him is via Mario's own attacks. Also Bowser was only directly amped in Mario Galaxy 2.
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It's not just Heat Resistance, Gyro, it's the fact that a small portion of the energy of the reactor powered by a Grand Star harms Bowser. It's not a matter of heat is that Bowser cannot be scaled to Grand Stars (Even in Base, which was the argument) as he is demonstrably inferior to a fraction of the energy of a Grand Star.

GyroNutz said:
Why is he only using a fraction of the Grand Star's full power? Mario is Bowser's archnemesis, he has every incentive to use the Grand Star's full power to defeat Mario. Same goes for any of the other Grand Star amped bosses.
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This is not my argument, my argument is that if Bowser is stronger than the other "Grand Star-amped" Bosses, and yet he cannot touch the Grand Star reactor without burning, it stands to reason that the amp doesn't scale to the potential full power of the Grand Star (Which are Low 2-C scaling to the Reactor Collapse anyway). The issue is that simply being powered by a thing does not necessarily mean that you scale to the full power of said thing.

This is like the issue of scaling people who are electricity-powered to like, the entire electricity of a city, or people who are powered by an alternate dimension to the size of the dimension. A source of fuel does not mean you will emmit an equal amount of fuel to your source's whole reserve at once.

GyroNutz said:
He wasn't just groggy, he couldn't even stand up straight, which he was shown to still be able to do after Mario beat him up. Also if the argument is that Bowser's injuries from the universe's destruction were "reset", it would hardly make sense for him to still retain his injuries from Mario as well.
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He got up just fine after waking up groggy. We see no injuries on Bowser's body whatsoever, and the description makes it clear that Bowser was caught in the destruction of the universe, "Mario and Peach escape Bowser's immediate fate" and all that.

GyroNutz said:
I don't recall this happening close to "dozens upon dozens of times" before, and would appreciate it if one of the main points of the thread is left to be evaluated and discussed properly.
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Well it has been brought up in numerous threads and always rejected. And it is being discussed in this thread.
 
@Antvasima I have gone over DDM's comment. He's technically right about many of the feats but the main issue isn't the legitimacy or how many times it happened, it's the coherence. Just a couple months ago, everyone was breaking down the franchise, taking down feats (Especially the flat out bad and ridiculous ones) while justifying the plausible ones and making sure they follow the standards of the wiki. It's even agreed multiple times that Mario isn't a shonen anime (It's more of a fantasy/adventure-like) nor are we treating the franchise as one and I remembered a few people actively getting angry or argued against being accused of doing so. Now all of the sudden, they are dumping that all away and retconing that very argument by saying stuff like "Oh Mario gets stronger now" just because they are vouching for a large cast of Low 2-C characters, proving their point. I don't know if it competition with other franchises or personal desires but no matter how you see it, this is the very definition of throwing all sense of logic out of the window. As Ryu, Matt, and many others have said with you yourself have acknowledging it, this change is just illogical. It has nothing to do with whether it happened or not. The franchise nor its characters simply can't have this scale due to the gap (and absurdity) of the feats themselves making this a huge leap in power for basic building blocks reasons and how ridiculous and off powerscaling will be. In the Dragon Ball franchise, we didn't mindlessly scale Brianne or any of Universe 2's fighters despite the amount of times they confronted Universe 8's heavy hitters, why should do it here? Does Wingo being Low 2-C because of a Toad he fought sounds rational and reasonable? No, it does not. And neither does this.
 
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Once again DRB’s argument boils down to just arguing from incredulity. There’s not a single proper debunk in there.
 
Dino_Ranger_Black said:
@Antvasima I have gone over DDM's comment. While he's technically right about many of the feats, the main issue isn't the legitimacy, it's the coherence. Just a couple months ago, everyone were breaking down the franchise, taking down feats (Especially the flat out bad and ridiculous ones), and making sure they follow the standards of the wiki. It's even agreed multiple times that Mario isn't a shonen anime (It's more of a fantasy/adventure-like) nor are we treating the franchise as one and I remembered a few people actively getting angry or argued against being accused of doing so when. Now all of the sudden, they are dumping that all away and retconing that very argument say stuff like "Oh Mario gets stronger now" just because they are vouching for a Low 2-C Toad, proving their point. I don't know where it has to do with competition with other franchises or personal desires but no matter how you see it, this is the very definition of throwing all sense of logic out of the window. As Ryu, Matt, and many others have said and you yourself have acknowledged, this change is just illogical. The franchise nor its characters warrants this scale due to the gap of the feats themselves making this a huge leap in power for basic building blocks reasons and how ridiculous power scaling will be. It has nothing to do with whether it happened or not. We didn't mindless scale Brianne or any of Universe 2's fighters despite the amount of times they confronted Universe 8's heavier hitters, why should do it here? Does Wingo being Low 2-C because of a Toad he fought sounds rational and reasonable? No, it does not. And neither does this.
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No debunks or arguments here, just the "it doesn't make sense"
 
Does Mario busting Solar Systems every time he fights sound reasonable and in character?

Does Sonic bust universes left and right or planets for that matter?

Does Link slice the fabric of the universe each time he fights enemies?

Using those trains of thought we'd have to downgrade half of the profiles we have simply because "they sound ridiculous"

That's all I'll say.
 
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