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And to top it off, I can put money that people will latch onto it, claim because he said no the thread is dead, and either parrot it or just ask to close it.
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Low 2-C Mario: In The Final
- Thread starter DatOneWeeb
- Start date
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No because he doesn't do it.
He doesn't do it.
He doesn't do it.
Your comment only highlights the ridiculousness and inherent suspiciousness of all those other ratings also.
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This is really disrespectful Cal. The thread had gone back to a peaceful state but the moment Dino returns and expresses his disagreements once again you and other people start to poison the well once more.
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Why him explaining the arguments being 'maybe' wrong is disrespectful?
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Not this, but immediately as soon as Dino threw his disagreement again in response to DDM, Cal complains that Dino has no arguments and that he is only speaking from feelings, and then regular users feel the incentive to join in on it.
I don't want the thread to be toxic again.
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I'm glad Dino did go over the multitude of feats. And I do agree that there are a lot of loopholes. And upgrading Mario to Tier 2 outright would pretty much create even more loopholes. Mario isn't a Shounen verse; it behaves more like a Fantasy verse with some comicbook like practices. Mario doesn't get stronger in the Shounen sense, he basically fluctuates and goes back and forth where it's all over the place. Very much more like various Marvel or DC characters albeit not as extreme.
However, I do want to point out listing every single antifeat isn't good practice either. Super Mario World already establishes the difference in Mario's power from gameplay to story. He goes from struggling to fight blocks in gameplay to literally one-shotting entire castles to the point here his extremely casual attacks are essentially one-shotting many Thwomps. And that's barely even close to a bunch of other feats often being ignored.
Also, I want to point out GyroNuts raised some strong points. Bowser is literally eating the Grand Star to grow giant. He's got a Universe nuking artifact in his chest that's amping his power levels skyrocketing. And he's absolutely utilizing its full powers into his physical strength and Bowser even acknowledges that he should have used it that way the first time. However, I think it's loophole for Bowser to be Universal without a Grand Star and thus would be contradictory to base Mario's stats in the process.
The Heat feats are still work in progress, but here's the detail. Most of the time, withstanding extreme heat is no where near as impressive as surviving blunt force trauma. 200 Kilojoules of thermal energy is barely enough thermal energy to cause a summer cold. But 200 Kilojoules of blunt force trauma is equivalent to getting run over by a speeding car that shatters every bone in your body. But, even calculating and assuming the lava has the same density as normal lava and dividing it by surface area. Thermal Equilibrium would make it 3-B levels of heat. it wouldn't scale to taking hits from 3-B punches normally fra about though.
As I said, I don't care one way or the other if Tier 2 gets accepted, but I'd appreciate it if both sides tried to remain civil.
However, I do want to point out listing every single antifeat isn't good practice either. Super Mario World already establishes the difference in Mario's power from gameplay to story. He goes from struggling to fight blocks in gameplay to literally one-shotting entire castles to the point here his extremely casual attacks are essentially one-shotting many Thwomps. And that's barely even close to a bunch of other feats often being ignored.
Also, I want to point out GyroNuts raised some strong points. Bowser is literally eating the Grand Star to grow giant. He's got a Universe nuking artifact in his chest that's amping his power levels skyrocketing. And he's absolutely utilizing its full powers into his physical strength and Bowser even acknowledges that he should have used it that way the first time. However, I think it's loophole for Bowser to be Universal without a Grand Star and thus would be contradictory to base Mario's stats in the process.
The Heat feats are still work in progress, but here's the detail. Most of the time, withstanding extreme heat is no where near as impressive as surviving blunt force trauma. 200 Kilojoules of thermal energy is barely enough thermal energy to cause a summer cold. But 200 Kilojoules of blunt force trauma is equivalent to getting run over by a speeding car that shatters every bone in your body. But, even calculating and assuming the lava has the same density as normal lava and dividing it by surface area. Thermal Equilibrium would make it 3-B levels of heat. it wouldn't scale to taking hits from 3-B punches normally fra about though.
As I said, I don't care one way or the other if Tier 2 gets accepted, but I'd appreciate it if both sides tried to remain civil.
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Then try to not overreact to it. It's an arguement, like all others. He argues Dino's position is based on a fallacy. Counter it by explaining why it isn't, not by getting defensive.THAT is how drama starts.
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My main issue is with nonsensical backwards scaling. If someone does something in an amped state, it doesn't make any sense to scale back to base because Mario fights both. Even disregarding whether or not the Grand Star amp is quantifiably Low 2-C, which I don't think it is. Base Bowser is physically stronger than Mario, either the Amp is minimal or it's an outlier to scale it back to Mario.
The discusion isn't just heat, I wasn't talking about heat when I brought up the reactor, i brought it up as an obvious example of how Bowser cannot scale to the Grand Star feat himself as a tiny fragment of the reactor's energy (which, when fully collapse causes the Low 2-C feat in the first place) hurts him.
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Ayee Fox you made it
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While I'm here,
Am pretty neutral overrall, but lean more with Medeus' take.
That said, I do understand Dino's overall sentiment and agree that we shouldn't just take the highest interpretation at face value and ignore all context behind it. Specially on a franchise like Mario, where cartoony stuff reign supreme, most even bordering on toon force.
The mentality that "feats are feats regardless of all" is as flawed as trying to pass the opposite.
Am pretty neutral overrall, but lean more with Medeus' take.
That said, I do understand Dino's overall sentiment and agree that we shouldn't just take the highest interpretation at face value and ignore all context behind it. Specially on a franchise like Mario, where cartoony stuff reign supreme, most even bordering on toon force.
The mentality that "feats are feats regardless of all" is as flawed as trying to pass the opposite.
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By that very same logic, Frieza, Imperfect/Semi-perfect Cell, and Buu should be Planet level since we've seen no feats of them destroying stars or solar systems.
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This tbh^
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Let's please not bring dragon ball into this.
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This is a blatant lie because they all have very direct feats and statements of planet level destruction.
1. Frieza blows up Planet Vegeta in First Form.
2. Final Form Frieza casually kicks Vegeta's planet-busting attack.
3. Final Form Frieza blocks Goku's Kaioken x20 Kamehameha which is also stated to be planet busting
4. Frieza blows up Namek.
5. Cell is hit with Planet-Busting Attacks from both Vegeta and Goku (Stated to be planet-busting), and although most of his body is destroyed he is admittedly holding back
5. Cell blasts Earth with a Kamehameha stated to be planet-busting, which is overpowered by SSJ2 Gohan's stronger Kamehameha, and then he endures this stronger Kamehameha to the face.
6. Super Perfect Cell's Kamehameha is stated to destroy the solar system.
7. Buu destroyed hundreds of planets across the galaxy in his backstory.
8. Buu casually shoots a planet-level Ki Blast at Earth and when Vegeta neutralizes it he fires a blast hundreds of times stronger that obliterates the planet.
If you want to use analogies please don't use Dragon Ball because Dragon Ball actually has several direct feats.
You don't need any scaling to prove that Frieza, Perfect Cell, and Buu are Planet level.
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People shouldn't bring other series period. This is for Mario and how should we interpret its feats the most logical and consistent way. It doesn't matter what other series does and doesn't do, because they may have different context to Mario.
And that's in general.
And that's in general.
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Pretty much this. If you have a problem with other verses that do the same thing, make a separate thread for that.
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He was talking about them having no star-SS feats, not planet.
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^
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For the record, I'm not being ignorant nor am I arguing from incredulity. So many people, even DDM, have pointed out the several issues, that I decided to focus on the issue with this thread from a rational point of view in why we can't accept this. In addition, many of the people supporting this have overlooked the primary and crucial reason why Mario nor co. have been scale to this tier for years, no matter how frequent or legitimate they are................................................................................................multiple of them are from Bowser, a character they've been constantly fighting amped AND unamped, making this super difficult to qualify. Bowser's already treated as one of the recurring cast strongest and most resilient in BASE. So powerscaling Mario to his amped forms will mean powerscaling Bowser right back to him, despite the fact he was empowered in the very first place and we will be back to square one. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Thank you for mentioning this, DRB, I have been talking about this for the whole thread. How you cannot simultaneously scale Mario to Base Bowser and Amped Bowser when Base Bowser is consistently physically stronger than Mario in the first place, it creates recursive scaling where Base Bowser will be stronger than Amped Bowser.
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For verses like these, bringing up Dragon Ball is honestly far worse than bringing up Marvel or DC.
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...what?
Dino the only feat that’s uni coming from Bowser is from paper Bowser, and the rest of the posse survive it with him.
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I called a spade a spade. We waited all this time and his argument (at the time) was essentially “I don’t like uni Toad”
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Again, don't be disrespectful, there is more to his posts than that.
Cal, you can't say this with a straight face when for several pages people are trying to argue Bowser in base scales to Grand Star people while also arguing Base Mario scales to Grand Star-amped Bowser. The circular scaling is the issue.
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Sure, when I called him out on it, he came back with more to it. But no, at the time, it wasn’t.
Yes, the one feat out of...what was it, four? Five? Five feats being discussed in detail here involve an amped Bowser. And yet Dino said that most of them were. At best you could say the Olly feat involved an amped Bowser, but Bowser wasn’t even fighting Mario then.
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He didn't, he said that it was a major problem he has. Again, you don't need to misrepresent a person's arguments.
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The entire crux of the argument in the latest post (the one that doesn’t involve incredulity) was about how multiple feats come from Bowser and that’s it’s circular scaling. That’s outright false. A grand total of one listed feat involves scaling to an amped Bowser, and it’s not even one that I’ve been arguing.
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The snide hostility, disrespectful attitudes, and destructive subversive incendiary rhetorics really need to stop here. They only serve to cause damage to this community.
Anyway, I think that the only workable solution here, to avoid extreme inconsistency and the kind of illogical circular scaling that DRB mentioned, might be to figure out a compromise solution, wherein Mario, Bowser, and others get more statistics keys, to accommodate that their power levels differ greatly from game to game.
Anyway, I think that the only workable solution here, to avoid extreme inconsistency and the kind of illogical circular scaling that DRB mentioned, might be to figure out a compromise solution, wherein Mario, Bowser, and others get more statistics keys, to accommodate that their power levels differ greatly from game to game.
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I've always thought that would be a good idea, however, then we shouldn't have just 4-A and Low 2-C, then, as a lot of games, even a lot of subseries, don't show any feats on that level of power. And that'd be a lot of work since... Well, Mario's got a lot of profiles and a lot of games.
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This thread cannot stay on track for over 15 posts, huh? Is it a rule I missed or something?
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Well, I think that most of the staff are doing their best to make an effort to do a good job, but if that is Matthew saying those things, it obviously isn't appropriate, yes.
Anyway, can we please try to stay on topic, try to be polite, and avoid causing damage to the working structure of this community? I feel like an overworked fireman at the moment.
Anyway, can we please try to stay on topic, try to be polite, and avoid causing damage to the working structure of this community? I feel like an overworked fireman at the moment.
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That is Matt, yes. My point is if the person mainly arguing thinks this the most wanked verse on this site, do you not think that even gives off a hint of bias?
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Agreed. I and likely many others here are very stressed out by the world's ongoing political upheavals, but I am at least still making an effort to not take out said stress, anger, and anxiety on others here, so we can try to keep this as a form of safe haven, and would appreciate if all other members would make an effort to do the same thing.
I mean, I have an active depression over the state of the world at large, am severely overworked trying to help this community as best as I am able for no pay, have been repeatedly severely harrassed and abused as thanks for the effort over the years, and have a mental disability that limits my social ability. If I can still usually manage to be respectful and polite, the rest of you can do so as well.
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Yes, I cannot object to that logic, but he at least seems to try to stay on topic here in this thread, and it would be much more constructive if we discuss how to practically apply my suggestion of several statistics keys for Mario, Bowser, and other affected characters, one of which would be Low 2-C.
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The issue with giving keys for each subseries is that they are all connected canonically from stuff in games (Luigi's Mansion to Sunshine for example), Miyamoto (the creator), and the official encyclopedia where they repeat that all of these are the same characters.
The Bowser argument was silly, because only one feat was done by Bowser, rest from different characters. Not to mention there has yet to be a fight where Bowser defeats Mario without preparation or some type of help. In the NSMB games, Bowser would win from either a sneak attack or never directly battle and run away. Mario isn't actually defeated in these. Or in Odyssey where he had to make Mario turn around to get hit and loses via being knocked off the ship.
Mario and even others like Luigi or Peach have defeated an amplified Bowser plenty of times.
These are stronger versions of Bowser that have lost. And much like how I already proved the Mario Bros get stronger as they fight (via statements and showings) Bowser has gotten stomped too.
Fawful ended up knocking down Bowser very easily, however later on Luigi comes in and easily defeats Fawful.
Bowser was going through several body changes and power boosts, despite all this the Bros defeated Bowser with no visual damage while Bowser ended up in casts.
Bowser was literally slapped away by King Olly's fist, Mario however took it like a champ and pushed him away when Olly tried to crush him.
Arguing Bowser is just that much above is pretty silly when Bowser has actually lost a lot. And again, this is only one feat that we are using him to scale.
The Bowser argument was silly, because only one feat was done by Bowser, rest from different characters. Not to mention there has yet to be a fight where Bowser defeats Mario without preparation or some type of help. In the NSMB games, Bowser would win from either a sneak attack or never directly battle and run away. Mario isn't actually defeated in these. Or in Odyssey where he had to make Mario turn around to get hit and loses via being knocked off the ship.
Mario and even others like Luigi or Peach have defeated an amplified Bowser plenty of times.
- Bowletta
- Shrowser
- Vibe Scepter
- Star Rod
- Shiny
- Shiny Robo
- Grand Star
- Bowser X
- Black Paint Bowser
- Origami Bowser
These are stronger versions of Bowser that have lost. And much like how I already proved the Mario Bros get stronger as they fight (via statements and showings) Bowser has gotten stomped too.
Fawful ended up knocking down Bowser very easily, however later on Luigi comes in and easily defeats Fawful.
Bowser was going through several body changes and power boosts, despite all this the Bros defeated Bowser with no visual damage while Bowser ended up in casts.
Bowser was literally slapped away by King Olly's fist, Mario however took it like a champ and pushed him away when Olly tried to crush him.
Arguing Bowser is just that much above is pretty silly when Bowser has actually lost a lot. And again, this is only one feat that we are using him to scale.
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