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Low 2-C Mario: In The Final
- Thread starter DatOneWeeb
- Start date
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I have been mostly lurking, and I am pretty neutral overall; but DRB didn't really provide an argument, rather a simple disagreement.
EDIT: his only comment was as follows:
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Eh with all due respect, the guy only dropped in the debate to basically say "No this's weird so wrong", and hasn't done anything outside it
Plus of what basis is he considered the most knowledgable Mario regarding Mario, and even if in theory he was I fail to see why we'd need to wait for him to respond before coming to a conclusion, this sort of attitude is why Blue names afterwards say that only staff and a select few people's voices matter
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I just woke up and now that have had some time to collect my thoughts here's my two cents.
I couldn't careless if the upgrades go through or not but I for one 100% agree with Cal that staff shouldn't (so brazenly too) abuse their power to enforce their cognitive preconceptions on what is "fact" to force a conclusion (hasty generalization) if a regular user did this it would be called out as an ad populism or appeal to authority and quickly dismissed yet staff can do exactly the same thing with impunity and nothing is done about it unless other staff members call them out (because regular users calling them out isn't enough yet we're all supposed to be people here right?).
Also finding something "ridiculous" isn't an argument, again debating with clouded preconceptions is a sure fire way of a debate derailing into insults, irrelevant memes, stonewalling, etc. Sure we all have verses we like or dislike not to mention we all have differing opinions on how characters should be rated but letting blatant bias warp logical reasoning as well as differing opinions into a painful mess that goes on for hundreds of messages ad nauseam is just draining for everyone involved.
Lastly I know these issues are riddled all over popular verses moreover I've already brought this up in multiple threads already but try not to bring up other unrelated verses/characters into the discussion not only can it lead to derailment but (depending on the context) it often leads to circular reasoning potentially even spite (e.g: character A can finally get upgrades to stomp character B or well if verse C is getting downgraded it's only fair verse D gets downgraded too).
Sorry if my "rant" dragged on but I'm tired of seeing, the same old status quo whenever a major CRT (that affects a popular verse) is posted. I just hope the rest of this CRT can continue on with mutual respect from all sides of the debateplus I still got to prepare spaghetti just in case this thread breaks the 1000 messages mark!
Anyway that's my take on the matter. If you took the time to read a long winded comment from an irrelevant regular user like me, thank you for your patience!
Whelp good luck with the CRT folks, adios for now!
I couldn't careless if the upgrades go through or not but I for one 100% agree with Cal that staff shouldn't (so brazenly too) abuse their power to enforce their cognitive preconceptions on what is "fact" to force a conclusion (hasty generalization) if a regular user did this it would be called out as an ad populism or appeal to authority and quickly dismissed yet staff can do exactly the same thing with impunity and nothing is done about it unless other staff members call them out (because regular users calling them out isn't enough yet we're all supposed to be people here right?).
Also finding something "ridiculous" isn't an argument, again debating with clouded preconceptions is a sure fire way of a debate derailing into insults, irrelevant memes, stonewalling, etc. Sure we all have verses we like or dislike not to mention we all have differing opinions on how characters should be rated but letting blatant bias warp logical reasoning as well as differing opinions into a painful mess that goes on for hundreds of messages ad nauseam is just draining for everyone involved.
Lastly I know these issues are riddled all over popular verses moreover I've already brought this up in multiple threads already but try not to bring up other unrelated verses/characters into the discussion not only can it lead to derailment but (depending on the context) it often leads to circular reasoning potentially even spite (e.g: character A can finally get upgrades to stomp character B or well if verse C is getting downgraded it's only fair verse D gets downgraded too).
Sorry if my "rant" dragged on but I'm tired of seeing, the same old status quo whenever a major CRT (that affects a popular verse) is posted. I just hope the rest of this CRT can continue on with mutual respect from all sides of the debate
Anyway that's my take on the matter. If you took the time to read a long winded comment from an irrelevant regular user like me, thank you for your patience!
Whelp good luck with the CRT folks, adios for now!
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And he did the same thing to you here
https://vsbattles.com/threads/low-2-c-mario-in-the-final.110950/post-3500774
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Just woke up. This is just going back and forth, and its already been established that there are several Low 2-C feats, at least in Galaxy.
Bowser seems to only really stunned by the Galaxy Reactor for a bit, and touching it doesn't instantly incinerate him, so he is able to tank the heat, albeit slightly.
Looking back on the statements, Bowser did indeed survive the Low 2-C Blast, and he was in the epicenter of it, as stated in the guide book, "his immediate fate". However, it is also noted that it was "his narrow escape from a terrible fate". But in the cutscene, he wasn't like near death or anything, he was just shaken, this is even noted in the guidebook. So Base Bowser tanked the epicenter of the Low 2-C Blast, and he was shaken by it, but not near death. However, had he stayed too much longer, he likely would have died.
Mario can take on several bosses with Grand Stars, which are pretty much accepted to be Low 2-C, and he can trade blows with them.
To summarize, I propose that we just slap a Varies from Multi-Solar System level to at most Universe level+ for the base cast. Bowser tanked the epicenter of a Low 2-C blast, but if he stayed too much longer, he likely would've died. However, the fact that he didn't immediately die, nor was heavily injured by the initial explosion shows that he did tank it. And there are also the various other Low 2-C feats that were brought up. But these are definitely the higher end of the feats, since they can't no-sell the Low 2-C attacks. So this is what I'm proposing, otherwise this thread is gonna last forever.
Bowser seems to only really stunned by the Galaxy Reactor for a bit, and touching it doesn't instantly incinerate him, so he is able to tank the heat, albeit slightly.
Looking back on the statements, Bowser did indeed survive the Low 2-C Blast, and he was in the epicenter of it, as stated in the guide book, "his immediate fate". However, it is also noted that it was "his narrow escape from a terrible fate". But in the cutscene, he wasn't like near death or anything, he was just shaken, this is even noted in the guidebook. So Base Bowser tanked the epicenter of the Low 2-C Blast, and he was shaken by it, but not near death. However, had he stayed too much longer, he likely would have died.
Mario can take on several bosses with Grand Stars, which are pretty much accepted to be Low 2-C, and he can trade blows with them.
To summarize, I propose that we just slap a Varies from Multi-Solar System level to at most Universe level+ for the base cast. Bowser tanked the epicenter of a Low 2-C blast, but if he stayed too much longer, he likely would've died. However, the fact that he didn't immediately die, nor was heavily injured by the initial explosion shows that he did tank it. And there are also the various other Low 2-C feats that were brought up. But these are definitely the higher end of the feats, since they can't no-sell the Low 2-C attacks. So this is what I'm proposing, otherwise this thread is gonna last forever.
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Will reply later today.
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"Harmed weaker" - you serious? Damn, Mario's human level, he dies from touching a mushroom.
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Dino has consistently been the most knowledgeable and helpful staff member regarding improving the quality of the Mario pages in the past. I trust his sense of judgement. However, he tends to have limited time available, so this kind of massive thread will likely be overwhelming to him. As such, a comprehensive summary from Medeus would be appreciated.
Also, everybody should please stop with the subversive incendiary rhetorics. I do not have 40 hours available every day, so I have to sift through what I read for the sake of efficiency. As such, I mostly only have the time to read the staff replies, and recurrently barely that, so I am very dependent on that they help out with checking through and evaluating enough of the rest. That is all. There is no malevolent elitistic conspiracy here.
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Again on what basis is he the most knowledgable?
And I think it's ludicrous that we need to wait for him to finish this revision and accommodate him to this degree, wether he's the most knowledgeable or not
Also while I don't doubt that you're a bust man even if unintended when you only really pay attention/read what staff have to say it creates the feeling that only they really matter, which is why many blue names feel the way they do
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Based on that he has consistently been the most productive member when it comes to improving the quality of the Mario profiles in the past, and also helped out with extensive analyses in previous Mario discussion threads. I find his input very valuable.
I tend to read what regular members have to say in less extensive threads that are easier to overview, but I am still extremely overworked and have ADHD in combination. I have to sift a lot when working, or I would not be able to help out and organise nearly as much.
Again, there is no malevolent elitist agenda here. We are just trying to create an organisational structure that is somewhat workable, without the forum and wiki descending into pure chaos. That is all.
I tend to read what regular members have to say in less extensive threads that are easier to overview, but I am still extremely overworked and have ADHD in combination. I have to sift a lot when working, or I would not be able to help out and organise nearly as much.
Again, there is no malevolent elitist agenda here. We are just trying to create an organisational structure that is somewhat workable, without the forum and wiki descending into pure chaos. That is all.
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I don't understand why this matters anyway, the Shadow Queen has no universal feats with our without the Crystal Stars.
As for proof, what more proof than the fact we see it in-game?
The release of the Shadow Queen starts covering the entire world in darkness in a sequence that goes on for several minutes and several characters comment on it.
And then after the Shadow Queen is defeated, Peach says this:
"If not for all of you, the world would have fallen into terrible darkness."
World = Planet in TTYD unarguably.
"Mario and Peach escape Bowser's immediate fate". That's Bowser getting caught in the destruction cause he wasn't shielded, but then the universe reset and everything that was destroyed was made whole again. The quote you guys keep using never say he ******* tanked the physical destruction. Again, he can't even endure touching the reactor's energy physically in the fight, which is far, far less than the actual power of the reactor's collapse.
This is a lie, in more than half the Mario Plataformers Mario cannot harm Bowser directly or without a projectile power up.
What is "blatant" to you is irrelevant. "The very fabric of reality" doesn't mean universal scale, it only means space and time, which is established because the expression "the very" is just an intensifier. Olly uses it to reinforce how impressive it is that he can now fold the fabric of reality. We have nothing more than a single quote which does not prove universal scale, and using the same quote yet again is not a good argument.
A sword that cuts through "the very fabric of reality" isn't going to cut the literal universe in half. Likewise "punching through the very fabric of reality" is just going to be punching a hole through space-time.
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Will reply later
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No matter how knowledgable he is, he said ABSOLUTELY nothing. I wasn't here for that long so I can't say for sure, but in all Mario threads everybody waits for him for some reason, only for him to come, and provide like zero evidence, only saying what's wrong and what's wrong. I'm in no means saying it to spite him, but we really shouldn't rely just on him, especially since he rarely provides any arguments.
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Like you said, context matters. A sword that cuts through reality (for example, the Jigen Tō from Yu Yu Hakusho) isn’t gonna have everyone freaking out like the world is gonna end. But Olly doing it did.
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Except most arguments about it's illegitemacy were rejected here.
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It often does actually.
"holy shit it can cut through the very fabric of reality?"
You need more than a single line to prove Olly was folding the universe.
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There’s also the fact that we see reality being folded on more than just a minute scale, broski. It’s not just a little slit in space.
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We see a room being folded. ._.
The whole game he is trying to fold the world into origami but space is never brought into question. We see the origami folds spreading across the planet and we have to travel across the land.
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Nobody freaks out from the Time Killing Deep Flash tho...
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Is this argument really relying on people being scared by something or not? The Mushroom Kingdom isn't exactly only inhabited by courageous folks.
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ok i'm back,before i refute back matt lemme say something,
Matt,ignoring the context really doesn't help you,you and efi are trying to argue that dimensional travel/portal creation is the same as manipulating/destroying reality
Which is pretty out of context if you ask me
Matt,ignoring the context really doesn't help you,you and efi are trying to argue that dimensional travel/portal creation is the same as manipulating/destroying reality
Which is pretty out of context if you ask me
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The fact that blaze and everyone else is ignored for their good arguments yet matthew is supported even though he argued for ******* surface area for a tier 2 feat and then proceeded to shotgun everyone making 837477 posts just makes me question this sites validity.
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No offense Antvasima, but this is exactly what I was referring to earlier. Just FRA'ing shouldn't be the solution to such massive upgrade/downgrade threads like this, especially when those who are saying so haven't really been proactive throughout the discussion. I understand that you probably want to keep the peace and wrap up a thread that, admittedly, has outlived its usefulness. I respect that. But at the same time, to dive into this thread and then simply "agree" with the mods (upgrade or downgrade), kind of ignores a lot of the contributions of other users, and doesn't really add much to the thread itself.
Yes, you should be free to share your opinion on whatever you like in these threads (especially given your position), but especially because of your position, your words hold a lot of weight/power, and sometimes I don't think you and the mods realize that. When you FRA someone, the likes pile on and it doesn't feel like there's a lot us blue-named users can do but stand by and watch decisions being made without our input.
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This is not a good argument. You need more evidence than a single line of dialogue from Olly himself to prove that the folding was universal in scale. If this wasn't a verse you were invested in, Cal, you would agree with me.
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This is not what I'm arguing for, if anything you severely ignored the context for both the ending of Mario Galaxy and also TTYD in favor of throwaway lines.
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I'm honestly burned out and honestly don't care whether or not Universal upgrades get approved, but I do agree that maybe revaluating the tiers for the mid tier bosses to find their own consistent feats rather than being scaled from Mario or Bowser would be something if Mario gets upgraded. But Grand Stars do amp their physical stats, and speed and have their own consistent Universal feats. So those physically amped should be universal physically. Saying, "None of those other bosses destroyed the universes" could be argued for a bunch of other characters who are "Comparable if not superior to others who do have universal feats."
I just vehemently disagree with Matt about downgrading Mario to anything less than Tier 4 or Massively FTL+ based on the countless and innumerable feats on these levels that are very consistent with the lore. Especially since Dreamy Luigi's case, he actually does physically sneeze away star constellations on multiple occasions.
I just vehemently disagree with Matt about downgrading Mario to anything less than Tier 4 or Massively FTL+ based on the countless and innumerable feats on these levels that are very consistent with the lore. Especially since Dreamy Luigi's case, he actually does physically sneeze away star constellations on multiple occasions.
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Do not generalize the whole of a users arguments based off one that wasn't correct.
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You took things out of context. I quoted Cal saying something wrong and showed an ex. of the same he said not being what he said.
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it’s not even just that, none of his other arguments make much sense to me at all, and clearly go against this sites rules.
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yes, but your original statement was very incorrect generalization.
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Well, I am just trying to make an effort to help out to make things a bit more efficient, so things do not go in circles too much, but in this case I am uncertain, as both sides make good points.
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Did Dino Ranger Black respond?
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