Low 2-C Mario: In The Final

[Matthew_Schroeder]

One obviously bullshit thing right off the bat: The Shadow Queen needs the Crystal Hearts to destroy the universe which naturally means she is not universal without them and there's no reason her power scales to the artifacts
If I create a bomb that can blow up a house that is not evidence that I 9-A at all let alone something on a universal scale.

We don't accept creaton of weapons and artifacts to scale to AP or else they'd have no point.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ollie's feat isn't Low 2-C either because folding the fabric of reality isn't evidence of universal scale it just means he has some degree of reality warping and that's it.

Him turning the world into Origami in the context of the game only scales to the entire planet really. There's no evidence world means universe there.

 

[Tllmbrg]

We don't accept creaton of weapons and artifacts to scale to AP or else they'd have no point.

Eh I don't get your point, even if you're the same AP as a weapon or it's below why wouldn't you want them?
Unless those weapons offer 0 utility for you I'd imagine you'd still want them for versatility sake or not needing to expend your current energy to preform feats when you got a weapon that can do it

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Black Jewel is already accepted as Low 2-C here. There is nothing mwhuch more for me to say other than Wario destroys the Black Jewel and can take all of its attacks

Why does it's power to create a universe scales to it's durability and attack potency?

We are having a Staff thread on world / dimension creation feats and we now agree that without further evidence they don't scale.

 

[Armorchompy]

On second though, I can agree that a solid Low 2-C rating is too much- I'd much rather see a possibly/likely.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Eh I don't get your point, even if you're the same AP as a weapon or it's below why wouldn't you want them?

If you need to make a weapon to achieve a result then you can't do it without the weapon. It's simple as is.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I agree with this. Also, wasn't Culex stated to control space and time? And couldn't mario cast fight base dimentio, who's also universal+?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

And tell me, what prevents a solid Low 2-C? 9 feats seem more than enough.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with this. Also, wasn't Culex stated to control space and time? And couldn't mario cast fight base dimentio, who's also universal+?

Culex controlling space-time being Low 2-C was rejected in a previous thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In the first display, we can see he has spatial manipulation over the dream world. Decent, but we need a bit more. Well, it's also shown he corrupt or even change a dream into a nightmare. As when Mario falls asleep, Antasma is shown larger and chases down Mario. The backgrounds represents a nightmare, as it does not resemble any other dream world. In it are portals that lead Mario in a place full of saws. Now this should be Antasma's doing, after all he made Mario sleep and everything in his nightmare helps Antasma

Literally how is any of this universal.

"Changed a dream into a nightmare" isn't an AP feat it's just hax. We've been over this in other threads.

How does Antasma's ability to manipulate dreams:

1. Affect his physical attack potency.
2. Relate to his durability.

The answer is that it doesn't, Hax dream manipulation isn't an Attack Potency feat and Mario fighting Antasma is completely unrelated to it.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

As someone who dealt with a similar discussion on world=more than a planetary space, I fully agree with everything stated her.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Culex controlling space-time being Low 2-C was rejected in a previous thread.

It was rejected only because he was shown to be on Mario's level, and Low 2-C for Mario they didn't think was legit.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Why does it's power to create a universe scales to it's durability and attack potency?

I assume the creation universe feat is derived from reality warping which I assume he can use offensively, his striking strength is unknown so that's why I assume it's not physically
And tbf to the page his durability is a possibly

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

It was rejected only because he was shown to be on Mario's level, and Low 2-C for Mario they didn't think was legit.

No, it was rejected because it was considered hax and simply applied to his Range.

Anyway there's already enough Low 2-C feats so we don't have to fall back on rejected stuff.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Bowser surviving the universe reset

Everything in the universe survived the reset because the universe was reset and restored back to normal.

If the Bowser from the old universe survived on his own there would be two Bowsers.

Also accounting for Bowser's surface area this feat is at most Tier 5. A universal explosion that stretches along the universe isn't going to be universal around a single person.

 

[Tllmbrg]

If you need to make a weapon to achieve a result then you can't do it without the weapon. It's simple as is.

I mean wouldn't the weapon still end Low 2-C, unless nobody scales to it they'd end Low 2-C

 

[Armorchompy]

Matthew is making sense to me, actually.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I mean wouldn't the weapon still end Low 2-C, unless nobody scales to it they'd end Low 2-C

Using a magic crystal artifact to recreate the universe won't scale to your AP at all. :/

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Much like before, the Grand Star is also accepted as Low 2-C here. Now, what needs to be noted for is scaling. Yes, the cast does scale in base forms. This is because Mario/Luigi have defeated several enemies amped by the Grand Stars in both Galaxy 1 & 2.

Bowser doesn't scale to the Grand Star at all. The same source you use also states that he cannot touch the energy contained in the Star Reactor without burning himself up.

Just because Bowser is using the "Grand Star" to empower himself at the end doesn't mean he is using it's full power.

Being empowered by something doesn't mean you scale to its full power anyways unless you can prove the thing was completely exhausted.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I assume it still scales to how much energy it produces overall, and from what I understand those hearts are used in game as a power source yes?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also as other have said, this is from a Nintendo Power Review and should not be used as a source:

And speaking of invalid sources...

This is from the American Mario Galaxy manual. As discussed before, this is unnaceptable as Mario is a Japanese Game and game manuals frequently changed things for the American Release, thus the Japanese manual should be used instead.

This is from the American Nintendo Power Guide. As discussed previously in other Mario Threads, you cannot use Nintendo Power Guides for Mario Games as they are not made or written by the same people involved with writing the games and can often make stuff up on the spot for flavor text to an american audience. Nintendo Power guides were rejected for Wart and should also be rejected for scaling Mario 64.

Likewise, these are unnaceptable too for coming from the same Nintendo Power Guide.

If the two main sources that the OP Blaze is using to argue for Low 2-C Power Star creation are both invalid, then Mario 64 isn't Low 2-C either.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Bowser doesn't scale to the Grand Star at all. The same source you use also states that he cannot touch the energy contained in the Star Reactor without burning himself up.

Just because Bowser is using the "Grand Star" to empower himself at the end doesn't mean he is using it's full power.

Being empowered by something doesn't mean you scale to its full power anyways unless you can prove the thing was completely exhausted.

Why would Bowser not use full power?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Super Paper Mario is the game with the best feats so I will address them one by one:

In Super Paper Mario, Mario, Peach, and Bowser survive the Incomplete Void, during its destruction of the Sammer Kingdom Dimension

This again is a matter of size and distance. The Void destroyed the Sammer Kingdom universe, yes, but being caught up in the destruction of a universe isn't a Low 2-C feat if you're a human-sized person who wasn't in the epicenter of the blast. The void appears behind the characters in the background and destroys the dimension, with them falling on another universe after that. They were caught in the collateral of a Low 2-C feat, they weren't hit with it directly in the first place.

I always use this example, but there's a Marvel Comics character (Basilisk) who was blasted with the Big Bang and his resulting durability from the feat was Moon level because the calculation made had to account for his size relative to the universe-expanding size of the blast.

As for the Ancients creating dimensions, again I have to ask:

- "With the help of the Pixls, the Ancients built amazing worlds."

1. If they need help from the Pixls why does this scale to the Ancients on their own?

2. How did they make these worlds? Was it instantaneously with reality-warping? Did they build them over time (Which would only be 3-B?) If there is no context this can't be immediately applied to AP.

Also the very same scene you use says, IN THE EXACT FOLLOWING LINE:

"But this amazing technology was lost." meaning that the Ancients used their technology to built the worlds, not reality-warping magic that instantly scales to AP.

There is no context behind the Ancients creating worlds with Pixls and as such giving every Ancient Low 2-C AP based on this off-hand statement is unnaceptable.

Every single feat in this thread has glaring issues.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why would Bowser not use full power?

If you have a Power Source and you use its full power, it's actual full power, it will run out immediately.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

If you have a Power Source and you use its full power, it's actual full power, it will run out immediately.

Not necessarily. It may last for quite a while

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Why would Bowser not use full power?

I think he's arguing that Bowser isn't using the totality of the Grand Star's energy to empower himself or else the Grand Star would be immediately drained of energy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not necessarily. It may last for quite a while

Then you didn't use the full power you limited the output to have it not run out.

Anyway it's literally stated that Bowser can't touch the Star Reactor without burning himself on the energy so he blatantly doesn't scale.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Why does it's power to create a universe scales to it's durability and attack potency?

We are having a Staff thread on world / dimension creation feats and we now agree that without further evidence they don't scale.

The universe is sustained by it until it dies, after which it spontaneously becomes a white void or Dark Jewel outright destroyed it all during his death throes

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Side note but the Shadow Queen blatantly doesn't scale to the Crystal Stars / Star Stones since they were used to overpower her and kept her sealed for 1,000 years. It's the whole premise of the game. The Crystal Stars are more powerful than the Shadow Queen. Her making the Stones doesn't mean she scales to their power.

"Don't worry about it. My information has to do with the book I told you about that mentioned the disaster that befell the ancient city 1000 years ago. It turns out that a demon destroyed the city. The demon also made the 7 Star Stones which helped it control the world. It is said that 4 brave warriors finally overcame the demon. But, they only destroyed its body. They weren't able to destroy its soul. So, they used the power of the Star Stones to seal the soul away behind the 1000 Year Door. The Star Stones can be used for both good and evil. So, with the 7 Star Stones you could either seal the demon away or revive it. It's up to the user."

The Shadow Queen is also not at full power when Mario and crew fight her:

"I have been resurrected. My new body and my soul have not yet fully merged and it'll take some time to get fully accustomed."

And then in the Climax of the game everyone in the world starts cheering for Mario with the Star Stones that have been scattered, giving him the necessary power to defeat the Shadow Queen. In the first phase of the Boss Fight you literally cannot damage her.

"Mario, can you hear that? It's everyone...Everyone is giving us their power."

So I am fine with Low 2-C Crystal Stars / Star Stones but it couldn't blatantly not scale to Mario.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Why does it's power to create a universe scales to it's durability and attack potency?

We are having a Staff thread on world / dimension creation feats and we now agree that without further evidence they don't scale.

A staff thread that's going nowhere

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The universe is sustained by it until it dies, after which it spontaneously becomes a white void or Dark Jewel outright destroyed it all during his death throes

You just explained why it's Low 2-C you haven't given a Low 2-C AP or Durability feat to justify Wario scaling.

 

[TheGatememer]

Bowser isn't amping himself with the Grand Star in MG1, as it's being used to power the galaxy reactor.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Starting to lean towards neutral now...

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree with Matthew.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Bowser isn't amping himself with the Grand Star in MG1, as it's being used to power the galaxy reactor.

Bowser cannot touch the reactor without harming himself. The power of the reactor far outpaces what Bowser can endure. Bowser using the Grand Star shows that he wasn't using its full power making the Amp unquantifiable.

 

[TheGatememer]

Bowser doesn't amp himself with the Grand Star in MG1, he amps himself with the Grand Star in MG2. Its base bowser that is being harmed by the reactor.

 

[SamanPatou]

My main concern with the whole "Mario/Luigi without amps = Bowser with stars/other amps" mean that normally Bowser and the others without power ups are greatly inferior to the brothers

 

[TheGatememer]

It could honestly also just be them winning through luck. The Luma could also potentially be amplifying Mario/Luigi's power, since we see that without the Luma, they can't use the spin technique. But again, thats just assumption

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So I am fine with Low 2-C Crystal Stars / Star Stones but it couldn't blatantly not scale to Mario.

Actually now I'm uncertain.

DatOneWeeb was using a ******* Review Quote to argue for Low 2-C / blowing up the universe, which is unnaceptable on every level.

Beyond that, he used these two lines from the American Translation of the Game while also linking a Fan Translation of the OG Japanese Text as support.

Except that "destroy the world" is never once stated in the Japanese Version of the text which he linked:

This is what is said on the fan translation of that same line:

"So they want to use that evil to help them take over the world?"

"What they are doing I don't know. But, that is most likely the case. We cannot let them get their hands on the treasure. If they do this town, no...the world will fall to evil."

They're not talking about destroying the world, but merely taking over the world.

Other quotes:

"I know what the Legendary Treasure is. It is the soul of a demon. They want to revive the demon and use its power to take over the world."

"The demon also made the 7 Star Stones which helped it control the world."

Well, later on they do talk about that the world "come to an end" or "being destroyed" but world in the context of the game is obviously talking about the planet.

When the Shadow Queen awaken we see darkness falling over every village in the game that you go through, with characters suddenly mentioning that it's the end of the world.

And when the characters are thanking Mario we have this line:

"Oh, thank you. I'm so happy. Everyone...if you weren't here the world would still be swallowed by the darkness. But through your hopes for peace you saved the world. I thank you from the bottom of my heart."

"The world would still be swallowed by the darkness". Meaning that the Shadow Queen would cover the planet in darkness and destroy the world like that. It's not a Universal feat at all.

The Shadow Queen isn't universal because the only mention of universal scale is in a ******* game review and every usage of the term "world" in game refers to the planet.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Bowser is typically equal to or stronger than Mario in just his base form so saying Mario is stronger than a Grand Star-amped Bowser is sus, though Mario defeats other enemies powered by Grand Stars.