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Low 2-C Gold Saints, and 7th Sense users (Saint Seiya)
- Thread starter TheUnshakableOne
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So all of a sudden there's an issue with one feat in specific.
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This is false.
Relevant panel at the bottom right, Iapetus says 銀河 / ぎんが which is Galaxy and not universe.
Then later:
小宇宙で銀河を作って隕石の雨を降らし百の手ごと巨人を打ち抜いた！！！/ Creating a galaxy with his cosmo, he pierced the hundred hands of the giant with a rain of meteorites !!!
I don't know what happened with the Saint Seiya Translation collectively deciding to translate this as "universe" in every version there is, be it Portuguese, Spanish or English. I don't know, maybe there's something more to it.
Also minor, but Shaka's Tenma Kofuku being compared to the universe is just???
This is not in the Brazilian Translation of the Galaxian Encyclopedia guidebook. This could be another guidebook that was only translated in French, maybe, but I have NO IDEA what this is. Hell it might be a French-exclusive Databook.
The Brazilian Translation of the "Galaxian Encyclopedia" does say that Shaka's "Khan" attack is equal to Saga's Galaxian Explosion when Shaka is opening his eyes and unleashing his full power, though, so there is that.
I also think Tenbu Hourin being considered a literal universe when it's a mental attack to be kinda questionable.
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How muscular are the main bronze saints and gold saints? It might be because of the art style but I feel like they should be way more built
Hasty12345
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it does however state that the galaxian explosion is comparable to the kofuku which has the power similar to that of the big bang, albeit my french is incredibly rusty. and Saga's GE was stated to be able to destroy the "world" in GA, which in context refers to a timeline of the universe, so it's consistent (which is further backed up by photon burst).
This is incredibly unfortunate, however, doesn't really change the scaling as there's many other statements which support low 2-C gold saints.
although, it's super weird all translations say universe etc, I know Japanese is an incredibly context heavy language where different combinations of kanji can completely alter meanings and since there aren't any official English translations I agree this should be left out unless there are any native Japanese translators willing to interpret the kanji for us? pardon me if you're a native Japanese speaker, I don't mean to be rude.
questionable definitely, especially when he has Agyo which can create universes, kind of seems redundant to have both abilities. Shimejima - who is another 7th sense user - could destroy the universes created by Agyo, so Shaka scales to either interpretation of the tenbu hourin.
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- Thread starter
- #126
A quick reply here as Im currently busy.
Its unfortunate that the translations are wonky and weird. I don't know how you could end up such different translations in different languages from the original like that
However, Tenma Kofuku is still being stated to be equal/compoarable to Galaxian Explosion, and Saga states that the photon burst is equal to Galaxian explosion
and the within the Episode G manga, photon burst is stated to be equal to the Big Bang by a titan
@Matthew_Schroeder i know tags don't work for me.. But id like to know how we should progress with that new piece of information.
Its unfortunate that the translations are wonky and weird. I don't know how you could end up such different translations in different languages from the original like that
However, Tenma Kofuku is still being stated to be equal/compoarable to Galaxian Explosion, and Saga states that the photon burst is equal to Galaxian explosion
and the within the Episode G manga, photon burst is stated to be equal to the Big Bang by a titan
@Matthew_Schroeder i know tags don't work for me.. But id like to know how we should progress with that new piece of information.
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Again, those aren't AP vased attacks, is representing the start and ending of a universe in a specific place.
Basically Shijima makes a void of nothingness and Shaka makes space to counter each other.
And over 20 times GE is stated as galaxy level everywhere so I dont understand why we should take the photon burst statement as more valid.
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- Thread starter
- #128
"only 2 or 3 statements of it being galaxy level"
Gets contradicted by literal 20 other statements and calculations that place it higher. Also, shown feats and scaling that places it higher.
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Is the other way around, there's no universe level calc for Golds and only one Big Bang statement for Aioros agaisnt 20 for just galaxy level GE.
Also Mu attacks are said to be galaxy level wich is even more of a bonus to GE being galaxy level.
We are outright told Athena baned AE because she thinks the power of the Big Bang is too much for Golds.
Non canon.
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@Matthew_Schroeder
So is this accurate, and if so, how exactly do we need to do to adjust the statistics and their justifications?
Hasty12345
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the panels literally state "a myriad of universes being created and destroyed" your headcanon interpretation is headcanon. furthermore, I believe this wiki recognized Shaka as universal with Agyo prior to this CRT, so presumably this has been discussed and your position has lost otherwise it wouldn't have been added.
saints don't have static AP, so both sets of statements are valid and non-contradictory. I guess Seiya is still island level despite having defeated Zeus (Aiolia), Hades, Saga, Aiolia, Thanatos so on. If we assume static AP for saints, nothing is consistent. Given the saints can raise their cosmo at the drop of a hat and increase their power literally infinitely..... there are no inconsistencies with these statements (and no, it's not hyperbole it's a requirement to activate the god cloths which middle tier gold saints like Mu and Camus could activate in GA).
I don't know how many times this has to be stated, all your points have been addressed, the AE is not a valid debunk as there's different levels of uni+, you're just downplaying and being intellectually dishonest at this point. Even supposing you're correct, all StS media post OG manga including G, GA, LC and the LN's have completely disregarded it, making the statement more inconsistent than literally any other interpretation, heck, the same author literally wrote Seiya creating a big bang prior to the AE being introduced, so the one statement you're clinging on to is literally so ridiculously inconsistent it's like saying the saints are < star level due to the Libra weapons.
Although not technically canon, it's not contradicted, in-fact, it's stated by Shion in G almost to the letter.
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I'm fine with universe level Gold Saints.
I am not fine with "lol several times baseline" because of Shiryu pushing the clash of Athena Exclamations.
'
I am not fine with "lol several times baseline" because of Shiryu pushing the clash of Athena Exclamations.
'
Hasty12345
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I don't believe that's on any of the profiles, that was dropped long ago when you took issue with it at the start of the thread.
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- Thread starter
- #136
It does not come from Shiryu surviving it. It comes from the statement that Gold Cloths are needed to survive the shockwave, and how a weakened, and exhausted Shura, Camus, and Saga took the full force of it and survived. And Mu, Aiolia, and Milo survived the other half of the shockwave.
Edit: Would you like it dropped completely? I was under the impression that you wanted only the shiryu part to be an outlier. I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding here if so....
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What the panel said still needs proper interpretation, what you are mentioning is the bronce saints dialogue as they are in the midle of the cicle.
Just read on what angyo and ungyo means and pay attention to how the attack works and you will notice this.
Unless you thing Saga actually destroys the galaxy every time he uses GE
I already debunked all this arguments, in the end you only have statements contradicted by more and more coherent statements.
Also no, G is the only part of the franchise that ever compares a single Gold to the Big Bang in terms of power.
For the last time, all Cosmos is the power of the BigBang.
Based on what? Every scan here has been debunked.
A single Big Bang level AE turned Shaka into dust.
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- #138
A quick reply since its early morning here, and a bit busy.
Shaka wanted to come close to death. He needed to enter the underworld alive with the 8th sense. and the durability of a character is also dependent to their cosmo. so lowering his cosmo, or not going all out would do the trick to get dusted.
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But the whole point of the fight is Shaka forcing the Darks to use AE to win since it would also prove they had betrayed Athena, it's wrong to assume Shaka just nerfed himself right before being dusted.
The Darks are also crying because they know nobody can survive AE.
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@Matthew_Schroeder
Can you check what needs to be adjusted in the just applied Saint Seiya revisions please?
Can you check what needs to be adjusted in the just applied Saint Seiya revisions please?
Hasty12345
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you literally haven't debunked anything, all you have been doing this whole time is come up with nonsensical explanations that lead to inconsistent conclusions. You're the only one who disagrees, everyone else who has commented agrees with the upgrade, including a staff member. So it's incredibly arrogant to think you've successfully debunked anything.
for the last time:
-saints don't have static AP, 3 galaxy level statements and 3 uni+ statements are in no way contradictory. the only way they are is if it's stated techniques can only have "one AP", in which case, I'll be opening a thread to get Marin to galaxy level because she can use the Ryuseiken, Crystal saint to galaxy level because he can use diamond dust, and all silver saints who fought the bronzes and I expect your support.
-saying every big bang statement is a "power of cosmo statement" is intellectually dishonest, especially when asserting that to be the case leads to statements which make no sense.
-The one AE statement is no different to the libra weapons statement, so unless you're prepared to argue star level gold saints drop, it.
- there are different levels of uni+, just like destroying earth and destroying mars are both planetary despite one requiring more energy, 3 gold saints combing their cosmo could all individually be uni+ themselves, this is not a contradiction.
- being buddhist concepts does not invalidate the very clear statement of "destroying a myriad of universes". So your head canon is still head canon.
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Do you think the anime version of the scene with the 4 Bronze Boys going gold diverting the attack makes more sense?
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- #143
The Taizen, and Hypermyth (One of those 2) iirc use that example for that scene. The bronze cloths going gold as they use their 7th sense.
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Wait really?
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- Thread starter
- #145
Yes, i found it. i believe this is from the Hypermyth.
Edit: hypermyth has summaries for both anime and manga. This was the summary for the anime...*
Edit 2: It doesn't elaborate much for the manga...*
Translation: "The two "Exclamations of Athena" collide and miraculously remain in balance, forming a huge ball of energy. The Bronze Saints interfere, raising their cosmos to the maximum, causing their armor to turn golden, and with the union of their attacks they manage to cause the "Exclamations of Athena" to rise to the sky, but the House of Virgo is destroyed , and the Bronze Saints are trapped in the rubble. Athena asks Aiolia, Mu and Milo to bring Saga, Camus and Shura to her presence, and asks Kanon to take something that Saga left in the Master's Room. The Golden Saints arrive at the Temple of Athena and Kanon delivers the Saga the golden dagger with which he tried to kill Athena when she was a baby. Athena says that he must kill her. Saga despairs, but she says everything is fine, and takes her own life with Saga's dagger. The whole Sanctuary feels Athena's death. Meanwhile, Seiya has a strange dream, in which he is injured and wearing armor different. The Bronze Saints arrive at the Temple of Athena and discover that she has died. There they meet Shion, who says he will tell the truth behind the death of Shaka and Athena."
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Quick Debunk: Shaka survived an AE. They explictly show and state so.
Aries Shion: Shaka and Athena have not abandoned ship yet.
Libra Dohko: In Order to defeat Hades, one must go to the underworld ALIVE.
Dragon Shiryu: Shaka and Athena awakened their eighth sense so THEY COULD GO TO THE UNDERWORLD ALIVE
We then see Shaka alive in the Underworld fighting Hades.
He's also counted among the Living Gold Saints in the Wailing wall scene so....
Aries Shion: Shaka and Athena have not abandoned ship yet.
Libra Dohko: In Order to defeat Hades, one must go to the underworld ALIVE.
Dragon Shiryu: Shaka and Athena awakened their eighth sense so THEY COULD GO TO THE UNDERWORLD ALIVE
We then see Shaka alive in the Underworld fighting Hades.
He's also counted among the Living Gold Saints in the Wailing wall scene so....
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In addition, Shun and Hyoga states the Virgo cloth had never been destroyed before Thanatos blew them up, which leads further evidence to the idea that Shaka wasn't killed by the AE
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I would appreciate if all knowledgeable and experienced members here check through the recent Saint Seiya edits, as I have found them to repeatedly be inconsistent/illogical/incoherent.
In addition, there are likely still several of them that need to have their tier categories at the bottoms of the profile pages corrected.
@Matthew_Schroeder
We really need you to try to be responsible and help out here. Otherwise one of your favourite franchises is likely going to turn into a complete mess.
In addition, there are likely still several of them that need to have their tier categories at the bottoms of the profile pages corrected.
@Matthew_Schroeder
We really need you to try to be responsible and help out here. Otherwise one of your favourite franchises is likely going to turn into a complete mess.
Hasty12345
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could you point out the inconsistencies? The only ones i could find are the god cloths for all but Seiya being high 3-A (which is weaker than their prior selves).
I believe god cloths and gods will get a CRT once this thread is finished. However, if you be more specific with what you don't like, fixing them will be much quicker.
Hasty12345
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That's just the gap between gold and silver saints though, the gap between 7th and 9th (the 8th sense has no confirmed power increase, it's more of a transcendence of the soul hence why it's not relevant this point) sense is even larger than the gap between 6th and 7th. I'm not sure what the policy on LC statements regarding verse cosmology is on this wiki, however, Virgo Asmita states that 8th sense users (and above) exist in a higher plane of existence above spacetime, and Hades created constructs which span infinitely in said plane (Underworld and Elysium) and Hades isn't even the strongest 9th sense user. So suspect or not, it's simply how the verse operates, so it's one of those "put up or shut up" situations.
**statements come from a LC one off special that was released not too long ago and to my knowledge have only been translated by amateurs, so accuracy of said translations are debatable.
Hasty12345
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I 100% agree
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- #156
I'll message matt after work (12 hours from now) if he does not respond by then...
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Saint Seiya doesn't reach cosmic power until the gold saints show up, which is why there's no progression inbetween. It just skyrockets with the introduction of the 7th sense.
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i'll private message Matt now..
Edit: i have sent him a message
Edit 2: currently in talks with Matt now. He still thinks universal gold saints are fine as he said above, but he would like a few scans to be translated from the Japanese raw's to ensure the best quality and best accuracy.
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