Lover's Revenge: A stupidly cute dragon fights a pretty messed up scientist

[Firephoenixearl]

@Pen

Oh i see. Well it's not that big of a deal, it's just a bit weird that kind of answering, haven't really seen it around Well there is always a first time i guess

Magma isn't 1200, i mean it is, but that's the magma that comes out of the earth, after it has been cooled down quite a bit from the long road. It's not nearly the same heat as Stella's Magma which is created from 15 mil degree fire. And again he doesn't form from scatered gas molecules like that. Otherwise he'd just reform in the sky not on the water

Yes but in context it is the same, cus both didn't have a mind. In fact Mercer's case is easier cus he didn't have a brain, but still had a mind. But yeah as said the only thing that bypassed this in verse was being controlled by another thing.

Hmm, i'll think about the distance.

@Death

Ugh, again with the long quoting. Just press reply and erase everything besides my name, that way it will show "reply to #xx message" so i know exactly which message you're replying to without you needing to quote.

>Brings out heat being AP >Mentions in the same comment Alex had higher durability but was still burned by the heat. Oki. My points are not iffy dude. You're pressing the NLF button without any reasoning behind it. You say "he survived a point blank (which is about as wrong as you can get as he was possibly even kilometers away from it) nuke which would go to at most around 1k degrees from that range then it means that 15 mil degrees of heat won't be a problem for the virus either". Like dude, that's like saying "he resisted basic fate hax, that means not even 1-A fate hax will do anything to him". That's now how stuff works. You need to prove why heat of magnitudes Mercer has never even thought of won't deactivate the virus.

Yes but "deceiving the mind" is not mind manip cus mind manip would be "manipulating the mind". Deceiving it is something you and me can do too. She just has it to pretty high levels of deceiving i guess.

...A deep blood red gas that's basically the same colour as his mutating weird body. Yeah if it were me i'd say "imma try and inhale it to see what happens" because the 1st thing to come to mind is smoke screen so we don't even think about stuff like poisonous gas. So obviously a once in a decade genius with info analysis, danger sense and supernatural luck would do the same.

Yes he has shrugged off some heat before, you need to prove why Stella levels of heat won't work though. You don't say "you threw a drop of water in my mouth and i didn't suffocate, so clearly if you threw me into the ocean the same thing would happen".

 

[DeathNoodles]

@Fire

Those points of yours are iffy and I've hardly used any NLF. I'm not just talking about Mercer surviving a nuclear fireball, I am also referring to him tanking a thermobaric explosion that then led to an entire military base being wiped out (which is estimated to be an 8-A attack and should be hotter than mere magma. I'm pretty sure magma has a set limit on its heat somewhere as its temperature depends on the chemical composition of the molten rock, unlike fire). He literally has a feat of not just dealing with one heat-based phenomenons, but two as well (and the thermobaric explosion that Mercer tanked was done effortlessly, with no damage caused to him). That was the explosion I was referring to when that he tanked point-blank, the explosion that wiped out an entire military base. As the total output of the Sun concentrated on human-sized targets are confirmed by the staff to be 8-A AP in terms of heat, the "15 million degrees celsius" isn't as impressive as you think it is. And I'm pretty sure that "deactivating the virus that is Mercer" wouldn't even be likely with Mercer's Mid-High Regenerationn.

As for deceiving the mind, she probably still needs some feats/scans of deceiving a hivemind of millions though. And I'm pretty sure that, unless there are more explicit mechanics behind "deceiving the mind", it could be seen as Mind Manipulation.

You do know that red/pink gasses exists in real life to be used as smokescreen, right? It was even done by a military force from what I can recall. And your point about Stella using Info Analysis and Danger Sense are irrelevant when they're not even in Stella's profile. And even then, you'll also need to provide feats/scans of Stella using said abilities in-character.

Why do I need to prove that Stella's "15 million degrees" needs to be resisted when staff members has confirmed that the total output of the Sun (including its core) in sheer heat would only have 8-A AP when used on human-sized targets? I'm pretty sure I don't need to elaborate further on that...

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh that. Well, it's still 8-A explosion with 2000 degrees of heat. And he gets burned on the inside-out by a nuclear explosion. On the other side we have a 7-B attack with 3k degrees of heat. I wonder which is better. Also the attack itself is far greater than anything Mercer has dealt with, the problem is the virus has never shown to resist that much heat. It would just deactivate, when the 15 mil hits the field.

So you're saying you cannot fool Mercer. Being made of many minds doesn't make you "unable to be fooled" it makes it harder to control you. Besides like there is a dude who controled a whole country and he would still be suseptible to phantom form.

Ah yes, and as i said if i see that im gonna go like "a dude just released a gas that's made of the same sort of tumor that his arms are, let me inhale that". I mean that's seriously what im gonna do. About the Danger Sense and Info Analysis:

― What's wrong? You haven't even got within my reach but you're running out of breath already, aren't you?

The man in black clothes dragged the bloodstained Dandalion with his left hand. They were exhausted just by looking at the man who suddenly appeared in front of Stella and the others and who partially destroyed the force deployed on the west main road.

― Am I so frightening to you?

― So noisy… shut up!

― Kuku, your mouth is the only vigorous thing you have.

― !

Stella distorted her expression with the man's sneer.

He saw through her. That she was startled.

Yes, Stella was overawed.

The man was clad in a sinister aura that made them feel sick just by looking at it, there was no way to describe it at all.

――Who was this guy?

It's just her passive traits, it's not Ikki levels of good, but it's good enough for a once in a decade genius not to say "imma just inhale that gas cus it's probably a good thing after all it came from my opponent".

Cus her 15 mil degrees far outclass his heat resistance and he has been burned by far lower heat before?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Also as i said, i have like 4 people to YEET at mercer so look forward to that once this ends.

 

[DeathNoodles]

An 8-A explosion which is placed in the same category of AP as the temperature of the Sun's core when used against human-sized targets. While you can make a case about Stella's AP via harming strong opponents, the "15 million degrees celcius" is a moot point when the said heat is only 8-A against human-sized targets. And again, I doubt a Mercer would "deactivate" when he has Mid-High Regenerationn (and Bambu has confirmed that plasma conversion via heat doesn't bypass Mid-High). You're applying the logic of conventional viruses to Mercer, who has displayed feats beyond what any conventional virus is capable of in real life, so please stop treating him as if he operates under the same logic as conventional viruses.

I doubt that merely controlling the minds of many would give you that same amount of resistance in most cases. And having "many minds" thus "harder to control" does count as a resistance of some kind. Though I still have my doubts on Stella being able to deceive the mind of a being that doesn't have a traditionally functioning brain (it would be preferable for Stella to have feats/scans of deceiving the mind of a character that has no brain or doesn't have a functioning one).

Even if that's how you would react, it doesn't mean that the same necessarily applies to everyone else. Red/pink smokescreen are a thing even in real life.

Her supposed info analysis doesn't seem good based on that scan (where is the part where she can sense the capabilities and weaknesses of her targets, and such? Those doesn't sound as combat applicable as detecting capabilities and weaknesses of the target), and her so-called Danger Sense could just be her sensing the magical aura of her target (which Mercer shouldn't have by the way, as he doesn't have/use magic or even any type of energy from what I can recall). Also, the gasses likely wouldn't even need to be inhaled to perform its purposes. It also still doesn't change the fact that such abilities like Information Analysis and Clairvoyance are not in her profile, so it doesn't even seem valid to be used in Versus debates.

Again, while you can make a case of the AP of a heat-based character harming a strong character, it wouldn't be the same for "lol, 15 million degrees Sun's Core" when it was confirmed that the temperature of the Sun in total (including its core) would only be an 8-A attack against human-sized targets. "15 million degrees" is just not a good enough of a justification to deal with Durability higher than 8-A with heat resistance.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Also as i said, i have like 4 people to YEET at mercer so look forward to that once this ends.

I wonder who.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Also as i said, i have like 4 people to YEET at mercer so look forward to that once this ends.

That doesn't help disapprove the idea that you could be biased against Mercer (you're like, one of the OPs who put matchups between two characters, and then frequently debate against this one character intensely).

Why even bother going through these efforts to make matchups that could likely stomp or "decisively" beat Mercer (which I'm pretty sure you're going to be arguing with against characters like Mercer), thus likely painting yourself in a biased light against characters like Mercer to others?

 

[SpookyShadow]

That's too true. I don't understand making matches while you are sure your character will win and don't accept any wincons of other character.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not really. It was discussed at some point and some people did agree with me. I have a character im knowledge on, then there is X character who im not fully knowledgeable on and i want to see how my character fairs up against that character. What's the problem with me making the match then as a knowledgeable member arguing for it?

 

[DeathNoodles]

Not really. It was discussed at some point and some people did agree with me. I have a character im knowledge on, then there is X character who im not fully knowledgeable on and i want to see how my character fairs up against that character. What's the problem with me making the match then as a knowledgeable member arguing for it?

It makes you seem too focused on that one character (and you not being fully knowledgeable on the other characters as you've admitted doesn't really help disapprove the possibility of being painted in a biased light), thus not being neutral as an OP should be and letting other users debate with the characters while remaining out of it for the most part. As far as making matches goes, OPs usually remain out of it and let the others debate for the characters (as frequently debating for that one character as an OP wouldn't really paint you in a favourable light for some of the other users in most cases).

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That as i said is a random rule that keeps getting broken. It's completely uncalled for and there is no point for it other than it preventing me throwing alex at masada characters like 30 times in a row for complete stomps.

If the match ends up fair it's ok.

 

[StarPlatinumm]

Incon

 

[DeathNoodles]

That as i said is a random rule that keeps getting broken. It's completely uncalled for and there is no point for it other than it preventing me throwing alex at masada characters like 30 times in a row for complete stomps.

If the match ends up fair it's ok.

Okay?

Even if that is a bad practice that is usually pulled through by some other users, that still doesn't change the fact that it can be... Well, something that is considered a bad practice (I've recalled that some users frown on OP frequently debating on one side of the two character matchups that they've set up at some point). That also means that won't help prevent others from seeing you as being biased towards a character, so it's better to just leave the debating of the characters to others as the OP.

And the lines between fair and unfair can get quite blurry if one is debating about a character "decisively winning" against the other character as the OP.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

well to be honest making a match where mercer has a direct disadvatage due to the range you put them at and having the charater he fough bloodlusted while he isn't dose seem quite baised if ya ask me

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Sir sun man

Well i mean Ikki vs Mercer was a similar thing. Also the range is not "a disadvantage", that's just Stella being better. If it ends up as a stomp at this range i will fix the range obviously.

Range advantages are character traits, this is not me putting stella purpously beyond Alex' range, this is SBA range.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@Sir sun man

Well i mean Ikki vs Mercer was a similar thing. Also the range is not "a disadvantage", that's just Stella being better. If it ends up as a stomp at this range i will fix the range obviously.

Range advantages are character traits, this is not me putting stella purpously beyond Alex' range, this is SBA range.

Yes... And Ikki vs Mercer was listed as a stomp. And the vital part of Mercer's hax (like his gasses) isn't guaranteed to work on kilometers, so it's delving into the stompish unfairness category. You can probably fix the skewed range advantage by putting the starting distance on the few dozen meters.

Yeah, and SBA also says that if there is an extreme advantage generated for one character for the starting distance, it can also be discussed for alternatives.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Guys we're derailing. I'm going to have to ask you guys to cease or I'll close the thread.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Firephoenixearl
Starting distance: The characters start as far away from each other as the highest range of the fighters is, but a maximum of 4 kilometers. For example, if one character has a range of 10 meter and the other has a range of 20 meter they start 20 meter apart. However if the range of one character is 10 meter and the range of the other is 5 kilometer, they start only 4 kilometer apart. If extreme advantages are generated via this distance to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@Sir Ovens

We are also discussing the unfairness that the starting distance gives, so it's not entirely off-topic.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Gonna make a CRT about that. And viruses do activate at higher temperatures. Stop your NLF argument of "it wasn't deactivated by several hundred degrees of temperature that's why the core of the sun won't deactivate it either. Basically textbook NLF. Prove me the virus won't deactivate at those temperatures (feats on that level or good enough statements would work).

I mean this isn't a great point im trying to push cus as i said above with the ikki vs alex case, Phantom Form is not something i'd enjoy pushing too hard due to the nature of how it's portrayed in verse, but you countered yourself in that argument. "Fool the mind of someone who doesn't have a brai" you yourself just mentioned the difference.

Yes if that's how i, an average human being with 0 combat experience would react, it obviously means that a once in a decade genius of Japan and Vermillion that has tons of combat experience, info analysis, danger sense and supernatural luck, would act worse in that same scenario. Im clearly a superior fighter and human being here.

They aren't in the profile cus as you noted, they aren't that good. A lot of people in Rakudai get these really bad premonitions when something bad is about to happen, stella is no different. When fighting an opponent way out of your caliber, fighters in rakudai can notice the danger. A puppet created by a puppeteer noticed danger before stella used Bahamut Howl. It's just a thing that fighters in rakudai in general are capable of. It's not listed cus she doesn't sense the strength and weaknesses right off the bat, but she can sense if someone is dangerous or not.

Same as first point, but again it would decativate the virus. AP or not, you have no feats that the virus would be able to sustain that much heat. And inb4 you bring up AP again, not all AP is the same. If i punch you you don't burn alive, you get hurt.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Sir sun man

I know, but if "extreme advantages", in other words, if it becomes a stomp. Which as i said, if it does become a stomp, i will fix the range. But it's not really unfair right now, if Stella's range is completely useless as she only wins with a singe attack.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@Fire

When the said virus (which displays feats beyond any conventional virus) has Mid-High Regenerationn with heat resistance (yes, it doesn't necessarily work against higher potency of heat, but still the Regenerationn...)? At that point, "deactivation" could just be regenerated from. In fact, what would deactivation even do to Mercer that he can't heal from? In fact, anything I've said about deactivation likely not being successful because of Mid-High Regenerationn is hardly even NLF when Mercer's Regenerationn rating is listed as Mid-High in his profile. Inactivating viruses is about destroying the virulence of viruses (making them unable to infect because of the destroyed virulence)... How would something like that prevent Mercer from just reforming and regenerating his virulence back (and the said viruses has also shown cases where it can operate at the molecular level)? Inactivating a unconventional disease with a Regenerationn like that doesn't sound likely to me (and you keep using the term "lol, inactivating virus" as if Mercer is a conventional virus, when he is not. Do conventional viruses infect inanimate objects such as buildings in real life? Do they cause you to turn into some kind of monstrous creatures bent on destruction? Do they also convert pure water into infected creatures? I'm pretty sure they don't, so your argument about Mercer being inactivated like he's a conventional virus is pretty iffy as well).

I don't think I've countered myself in that argument when you haven't even brought up any scans/feats of abilities like Stella's Phantom Form affecting beings that doesn't have a traditional or a functioning brain. For all we know, Stella deceiving Mercer's mind might not even be successful because Mercer's mind doesn't operate with a functional brain (which is why I've asked to see if Stella has any scans/feats of affecting characters with either no brains or non-functioning ones). It's already pretty dubious when you've admitted that Phantom Form doesn't sound like it has a simple mechanic for how it achieves its effects.

And would that even prove anything about Stella having experiences with dealing against gasses (especially the poisonous kind)? Because a showing of her dealing with gasses could be useful here. If Stella doesn't have such showing, she could at best see it as an another form of smokescreen (because I'm pretty sure fire creates a lot of smoke, which she should be aware about for gasses such as smoke).

If they aren't in the profile, then make a CRT about it (it doesn't matter if said abilities are "good" or "bad"). Because abilities being used that isn't in a character's profiles aren't treated as valid in most cases by this site's standards.

Again, Mid-High Regenerationn with some heat resistance (And he did fine dealing with extreme heat previously. Even if the heat is apparently higher like you've said, there's still Regenerationn), and I don't see why Mercer can't just regenerate himself from the supposed "inactivation" that conventional viruses (which Mercer is beyond) suffers through.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Regen has nothing to do with deactivation dude. Deactivation means the virus just stops "working" in a sense it goes from being active (infective) to inactive (useless or dead as we call it). Regenerationn has nothing to do with it, a Regenerationn itself would be deactivated due to being a byproduct of the virus. There is nothing to regen, because nothing is losing, it's just stops working.

I mean i will drop this cus as i said, i'd rather avoid heated topics on Phantom Form. And you don't seem to know where you're making a mistake here but eh whatever.

Cus anyone who hasn't dealt with this before will be assumed to be a complete idiot and just go like "yeah let me inhale this gas, it'll be a good thing". Dude just drop this. There are people with poisonous gas in verse, and invisible gas at that, people don't go like "uuh gas imma inhale". Like for real, it's like me saying "alex will see the fire and say oh it's fire i wonder what happens if i jump in", or alex against the nuke going like "oh a piece of metal that feels like it's gonna explode, i wonder if it really will if i stay here".

They aren't cus they aren't true powers. They are completely basic. There was a thread sometime ago to try and remove useless or very weak powers if possible. In this case her info analysis and danger sense are really weak as they would at best tell her that an opponent is strong, how strong and why he's strong would be unknown.

 

[Schnee_One]

Anyone mind if I close this for going off the deep end, into the Earths Core, out the back and into space?

 

[DeathNoodles]

@Fire

A virus "stops working" because of the chemical alteration on its lipid and protein (or whatever it is, but it involves chemical alteration), hence the inactivation. Mercer is a virus who has Mid-High Regenerationn (Viruses are cellular size or smaller, and are giants compared to molecules and atoms. Gasses are just a bunch of molecules circling around without a solid structure), and is also a virus that can operate at the molecular level (with him being able to control himself at the cellular to the molecular level). I'm pretty sure something that permanently alters you should be something that Regenerationn the scale of Mid-High would prevent.

Okay.

I'm not really sure about that... I mean, there can be characters who can be reckless in combat at times, or characters who can make stupid mistakes, but fine.

It doesn't matter if they're completely basic, the point of characters profiles in this site is to keep track of a character's capabilities as an indexing site. If the abilities are mainly combat inapplicable, then it should be noted as such for the profiles of the characters. So in this case, if you want to have such abilities being valid to use in Versus debates on this site, then make a CRT to add them.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Anyone mind if I close this for going off the deep end, into the Earths Core, out the back and into space?

I'm pretty sure it's going to be buried deep in the Earth's Core, destroy the Earth, and get flung into the edge of the observable universe instead.

 

[Schnee_One]

I'm being serious, though that is funny

 

[DeathNoodles]

I'm being serious, though that is funny

I guess that decision depends on Firephoenixearl, as he is the OP. I'm fine for whichever either way.

 

[Migue79]

What the hell did I miss?

So, what I'm getting is that's Stella gets stomped via regen.

 

[DeathNoodles]

What the hell did I miss?

So, what I'm getting is that's Stella gets stomped via regen.

Or, from what I'm getting from Earl's points, she can "inactivate/deactivate" Mercer via sheer heat like what happens to conventional viruses apparently (which looks pretty dubious to me, for Mercer has Mid-High Regenerationn, is more than conventional viruses, has control over molecules with Blacklight, etc.).

 

[Migue79]

Blacklight a conventional virus KEK

 

[DeathNoodles]

Blacklight a conventional virus KEK

Yeah XD

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Conventional or not, it's still a virus all normal weaknessess apply until stated otherwise. A 5-B human is not a conventional human, but doesn't mean he doesn't need to breathe until prove otherwise.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Conventional or not, it's still a virus all normal weaknessess apply until stated otherwise. A 5-B human is not a conventional human, but doesn't mean he doesn't need to breathe until prove otherwise.

Kind of a bad example when the said virus has Mid-High Regenerationn, can shrug off some heat, can control molecules it makes contact with (with Mercer also being able to control the virus, and thus himself, at the cellular to molecular level), can somehow gain sapience (which is impossible for any conventional virus), and such...

...Did I also mention the fact that Mercer has Mid-High Regenerationn and has good control over himself and virus? I'm pretty sure I did, so he can just recover via regenerating. What would inactivating a sapient virus with a physical human form even do anyways?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah nonsesne alex has survived far higher heats without being deactivated and has resistance to heat so your argument is pointless in other word try something else and move on...You evidence that blacklight will deactivate is regular viruses while we have examples of blacklight being exposed to extreme heat and contiuing to function so yeah no,

 

[Migue79]

Well, to be fair, the nuke feat's vague af. But using Occam's Razor we can use the least assuming theory for it (from what little we know).

But uh... No. It doesn't have the weaknesses of a normal virus, and the feats the BLV displayed demonstrate that.

Does her EE and other hax work btw? Not really willing to read through the entire thread.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

So for the moment nothings change stella has one win con, she can only get it of due to her range allowing her to yeet mercer and eventually she realizes he's still alive and ee's. Mercer can do nothing due to range making it impossible for him to close the distance.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Pretty much only ee will work

 

[DeathNoodles]

Does her EE and other hax work btw? Not really willing to read through the entire thread.

Minus the weird "inactivation" points, all she has is her EE via heat of some kind, but the only problem is that she has only used it on inanimate objects (and not living beings)... And the said inanimate objects are also pretty much objects of solid matter as well.

Even if we assume that somehow works, her EE is logically her only win condition here.

 

[SpookyShadow]

What's the distance btw? I don't see it in OP