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Lover's Revenge: A stupidly cute dragon fights a pretty messed up scientist

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People being around really changes things.

Stella would never open up with her actual attacks and would be heavily restricted not to hurt civilians. Unless SBA changes (which really should on this part), the tables are completely turned.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
People being around really changes things.

Stella would never open up with her actual attacks and would be heavily restricted not to hurt civilians. Unless SBA changes (which really should on this part), the tables are completely turned.
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Well, that's Stella's problem. CIS is valid to use when concerning a character's combat mindset in Versus debates after all.

Edit: Also, I still stand by the points that Mercer would want to infect (thus, gas for the sake of convenience) against even single ordinary-looking human targets.
 
MrDrProfessorPatricio said:
So is it safe to say Mercer FRA?
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Lets wait until Bambu confirms on whether or not sheer heat actually bypasses Mid-High (that can regenerate from vapourisation) by burning stuff into plasma or "ionising gasses" first. That can decide on whether or not this match is potentially a stomp.

Edit: I also still stand by the points of Stella needing to have scans/feats on her EE working on more than just inanimate objects, thus would only work on inanimate objects otherwise.
 
Doesn't matter. Her EE would get past mid high regen either way. Also are we really arguing Alex would be able to survive in the core of the sun here?

The problem is @DeathNoodles That's not CIS. That's her actually not wanting to have innocent people turned to mush. That's adding people around just to restrict her whole powerset and give Alex a huge advantage. It's not her willing to go easy on the opponent, it's her not wanting to kill other people completely unrelated to the fight.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Doesn't matter. Her EE would get past mid high regen either way. Also are we really arguing Alex would be able to survive in the core of the sun here?

The problem is @DeathNoodles That's not CIS. That's her actually not wanting to have innocent people turned to mush. That's adding people around just to restrict her whole powerset and give Alex a huge advantage. It's not her willing to go easy on the opponent, it's her not wanting to kill other people completely unrelated to the fight.
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CIS.

Examples for CIS in this site:

>Superman not flying lightspeed in the atmosphere, because it would kill everyone

>The Flash not speedblitzing most of his opponents right off the bat and refusing to go above a certain speed limit because it would harm civilians and damage the environment.

What you've just mentioned literally fits this site's definition of CIS and its examples.

And yes, based on Schnee One's link of a staff's thoughts on the total output of the Sun (which includes its core), the temperature core of the Sun actually wouldn't be useful against characters that are Tier 7 or over.
 
I mean, freaking Broly died to the surface of the sun.

We really need a revision on heat, because a LOT of ficion has people die to fire but tank far higher attacks.

But about that, again this is basically SBA forcing characters to get CIS'd.

But until i make a CRT on that i guess i should just specify in the OP this takes place in a desert.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
I mean, freaking Broly died to the surface of the sun.

We really need a revision on heat, because a LOT of ficion has people die to fire but tank far higher attacks.

But about that, again this is basically SBA forcing characters to get CIS'd.
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Fictional characters can operate under pretty weird logic at time (Broly should be above Planet Level, yet he can die to the High 6-A output that is The Sun... And just from the surface of the sun at that, which should have much lower AP, especially in terms of heat). It isn't uncommon for heat getting misinterpreted for their attack potency in fiction after all.

But eh, I'll just wait to see if such revisions about might pop up one day.

Well, SBA is SBA after all. One of the things about it is that being in-character and having character flaws that limits their combat mindset (thus, CIS) is valid by default.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
4km apart. His gases are not hitting her anytime soon. She'll just dragon spirit way before then.
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Make the starting distance a couple of meters, or else it would create a huge disadvantage for Mercer via Stella's range at that starting distance alone.
 
So your saying she will use dragon spirit against a random guy in a hood? She's done it against average looking people she doesn't know before?

We have an example of alex gassing people he doesn't know and are inconsqential does she have the same? What is her first in character move against mercer. Alex max range with the gass is two hundred meters, so her bahumat howl and some of her other abilities severly outrange him.
 
The pen or the sword said:
viral sonar and vision would let him see her but his stealth mastery isn't that helpful in there location...
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Basically this, but Stella can counter Trackless Step, stealth is not doing much to her anytime soon. Especially when Ikki himself tried to sneak up on her during the night (not for lewd purposes...not this time at least), and she just turned and kicked him.

But before continuing. Most viruses deactivate at even mildly high temperatures even assuming her armor is 3k degrees that would be way more than enough to deactivate viruses. Pretty sure Alex's virus has no feats of resisting heat. There is also the fact that the huge amount of air would rise up, due to the heat, that means the gas too.

>A guy in a hood.

10/10 for the sneaky wording. A guy in a hood who just released a blood red diseased gas around, transformed his arms into weird looking claws and possibly even tried to go for the tentacles. Totally normal guy in a hood. Also do not underestimate Stella's info analysis, danger sense and supernatural luck. Her info analysis was good enough that she knew ikki had a counter to her suprise attack just from looking at him. Her danger sense was good enough to know that <<Habob>> was not an opponent she could take on just from looking at him. And her supernatural luck is Rank A, 1 rank below what is basically Passive Probability Manipulation. But back to the point, she does use Dragon Spirit rather in character-ish. Like the only reason she didn't spam sooner against Ouma and the others is cus she was saving it as a surprise attack against Ikki. She was gonna use it against Iris rather soon before Kurono stopped them. It's in character, just not the first move, maybe 3rd move or so, her first move would be Bahamut Howl, usually. Not to mention she can make Bahamut Howl in phantom form for the incap.
 
Most viruses don't revive corpses and turn concrete into biomass so Im iffy on the idea alex virus will be destroyed by heat, I mean alex is literally a walking mass of virulant tissue and he's not noted as being weak to heat.

Phantom form fails due to alex lacking a traditional brain and having the ability to move/function without his head. So incap isn't really feesible

So shes going to know not to touch the gas? That mercer isn't what he appears? Fair enough/

So its her third move, alex first is gas, saying the starting distance kinda harms him here, he has no attack that can reach her at 4 km. His max range with gas is 200 meters.

Hmmmm... If she avoids touching the gas and uses the dragon form before it can touch her she can win. saying that she needs to use it before alex can touch/gass her. Her range is massive but only one of her abilities can win her the day here....
 
Yes, but that's just an unusual virus, but a virus none the less. Example most humans don't benchpres 500kg but Eddie Hall is still human. Get my point? The fact that's it's still just a virus would give it virus weaknesses unless stated otherwise. And not beng noted to be weak to heat doesn't mean it's not. It has to be noted it's not weak to heat.

It attacks the consciousness, not the brain. He can move without a head (i don't remember that, but ok), but he still has a mind. He came out ok out of a nuke due to sheer luck (which i forgot an argument as to why Mercer's regen isn't as good, cus he wouldn't have run away from the nuke if it he had no problem regening from it but ok), if he sees someone use that same nuke but far better, bigger and stronger. He'd think he's dead for sure.

I mean, would you just go like "oh look my opponent just farted out blood red gas out of, i wonder what happens if i inhale it, i should try". And "not what he looks to be", well i mean "a dude who mutates and farts out really suspicous looking gas" is rather easy to assume he's not what he's seems to be.

Technically, due to the fact that alex doesn't resist heat and that he's a virus, wouldn't even Bahamut Howl seal the deal here? It would deactivate the virus inside mercer turning him normal. Also it's not "one of her abilities" as much as it is just her existing after she transforms.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Yes, but that's just an unusual virus, but a virus none the less. Example most humans don't benchpres 500kg but Eddie Hall is still human. Get my point? The fact that's it's still just a virus would give it virus weaknesses unless stated otherwise. And not beng noted to be weak to heat doesn't mean it's not. It has to be noted it's not weak to heat.
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from mercers profile

Resistance to Mind Manipulation (Resisted Greene uploading visions into his head, led the Hive Mind), Radiation Manipulation, Cold Temperatures, Extreme heat (Survived a nuclear fireball)

so yeah it is directly stated and even used on this wiki just saying
 
It tricks the mind using aspects of human mentality and processing something alex doesn't share so again just like with ikki the attack fails. True easy to assume he's not what he seems, doesn't mean she understands how dangerous he actually is.

Considering the fact the supreme hunter was confident in tanking the nuke after consuming mercer im not sure what your point is. Being able to survive doesn't mean wanting to be hit by it....Thats...Just a poor argument there.

Nope considering he suvived vaporization and the heat of a nuke (Which would have destroyed a regular virus, but what do you know! He's fine) I think you'd need to prove alex has a weakness to heat like regular viruses. Burden of proof their falls to you

If you want to argue his regen make a crt as I stated before we've done this three times and we'll do it again.
 
It tricks thoughts, not "human mentality". Stella's conceptually a dragon ffs. The point is, it tricks you into believing you're hit. But it didn't work with ikki cus of the "mid high wouldn't believe he was beat by a sword slice" (given how people in verse actually know it deals no damage and it still works on them, that argument is moot, but eh didn't feel like arguing) and i didn't want to continue arguing something as weirdly explained as Phantom Form. A nuke that completely consumes him, will trick him into thinking he's hit. She's not the kind to go easy on people unless she's weary of hurting civilians, but then again she understood how strong Nassem was, just from a basic look at him. While her danger sense is not nearly on Ikki's level it won't take all that much for her to understand that a dude with those traits is someone she shouldn't go easy against considering she knows he's her opponent.

"After consuming mercer" that's cus they become more powerful by consuming things, so he would just tank it. The most damaging part of a nuke is not the heat, it's the shockwave. Excuse me? If he could just stay there in the nuke why would he run off like a madman on a heli to escape? If someone explicitly makes a ton of effort to dodge something, how is the logical assumption "he could have tanked it"?

That's just higher than average virus resistance to heat. As in it can resist up to maybe several hundred or 1k or so heat (a nuke from that range wouldn't really go for anywhere near or beyond). But we don't go to NLF on "He resisted 1k degrees fire that's why 15 mil is no good either", it's like saying "he tanked a 9-A attack so logically 7-A attacks won't scratch him either". It's your job to prove that no level of heat would affect that virus, you don't push the nlf button with feats.

Meh, that will just go in circles again.
 
Eh didn't schnee just post heat doesn't really matter teir seven and up? So your point there is invalid by site ruling.

A ton of effort? He flew the nuke away from the city, turned the helicopter back and was heading back to the city. Madman out of hell is a very large exageration. So i don't really get your point, why would he want to take the hit...Again not a strong argument.

So here info anyalsis isn't so good so how liable is she to realize mercer is a threat.

conceptually a dragon physically a human so...Again poor argument there, the way you explained it its a mind trick, alex brain doesn't function in the way human minds do...I assume it's somewhat like trackless step where it relies on tricking the opponents senses.

She knows she wants to kill him beyond that she knows nothing so...Depends on if she's willing to go for the dragon transformation straight away. Doesn't sound like she will, she needs to take that form before touching mercers gasses.
 
It doesn't deal damage. Phantom form doesn't deal damage. Also her AP is far greater so again. Her 3k fire can damage 7-B's.
 
Ahuh and? I don't really see how that helps at the moment. Im aware it doesn't deal damage Ive looked the ability and even pre retcon it didn't make any sense. So Ill pose it to you like this when has it ever effected an entity that doesn't require its brain to process information? Alongside mental manip resistance. Hell part of it's weakness is it failed on ikki cause he could fight unconscious.

Im not denying it can hurt him, Im denying it can bypass mid high regen. Her having a larger attack potency and higher heat doesn't really help her attacks. She needs to take her dragon form to bypass mercers regen, and she needs to do it before alex manages to touch/gass her.
 
Yes that was effort. He actually took the bother of moving out of the way of the nuke full speed ahead. Why would he do that, if he legit didn't mind getting hit?

Her info analysis is not "ikki's level" not "not good" (cus that dude's info analysis is just stupid beyond reason). It'll help in this fight just fine.

Alex is also physically a humanoid so... you know. Not really. Trackless Step abuses the fact that the brain cannot process all of the info, Phantom Form just relies on "wrong conversion" saying "it's different" would literally be the same as saying "Alex's brain doesn't recognize damage" or "Alex's brain cannot believe stuff". Cus that's what it uses.

She will go for that form, just not right away, she will spam some fire attacks and Bahamut Howl before doing anything. Also, can't she just leave a fire where alex is standing? It took him literal hours and a crow to recover from a low tier degree fire. If she just leaves a 3k degree fire at his feets or just turn the part around him into magma, he'll literally never recover as he'll constantly burn as he's trying to regen.

>Didn't make any sense pre retcon.

I mean boy, that was fine, but ugh now it's just stupid af. But "doesn't need a brain to process info", it doesn't affect the brain dude, it affects your opinion, your mind. It doesn't need feats of affecting a brain, when it doesn't affect the brain at all. And "part of why it didn't work on Ikki"...huh? Phantom Form has not worked on Ikki? Excuse moi? When?

Yes, but we're arguing on the hurt here. An omnidirectional fire would sure as hell make him believe it hurts.
 
I thought he resisted by fighting while unconcious or something, how does one resist it then? Yeah im calling nonsense when I asked bambu about the ability he said it sounded like preassure points or non magical mental manip. The fact its effected people with mental manip just means it peirces that level of mental manip. Alex doesn't have a coventional brain and has a pretty decent mental manip resistance so yeah.

It sounds like the ability is so poorly defined you could argue it works on anyone the way youve described it....

He flew back in the direction of the city, why would he stand over the nuke? That would be pointless you'll also note rather then flying straight ahead and away from the nuke which would have allowed him to get away from it faster. (As he wouldn't have to turn the copter around) He did turn the copter around and flew back towards the city.

Not really how it works, he would become vapor and begin reforming, if the flames were hot enough hes liable to be pushed away by the heat and reform somewhere else. Also has she ever done that or displayed the ability to leave an eternal flame under someone.
 
Why is the way you answer points so weird? My last point you answer first, then 2nd point 3rd. It's confusing.

The only 2 cases where Phantom Form has been resisted had to do with their will. The 1st was some dudes who loved stella so much their will transcended their body (which is just casual PIS, i can't make sense out of that one), the 2nd was some dudes who were getting body controlled by a pupeteer, so it would be useless to attack them as they don't even think, their will to move is not theirs. And "being strong mind manip" doesn't really help cus Ikki can fight with a completely inactive mind. As in with a shut down mind. He would have been able to resist too, but lol. As for the will, the will in rakudai gets pretty stupid as characters break through logica and causality with will.

Not on "everyone" i described the 2 cases it didn't work. But it's really weird. I guess it could be called non mind based will manip. Idk.

He turned around cus who knows how much water was on the other side he would never have been able to reach the shore like that. He was aiming for the shore ofc he would turn around.

That's not how reforming works. What do you think he is? Majin Buu? He doesn't just go "lol vapor" away into a safe place he reforms by creating blobs. Well she hasn't shown it but she has shown other things like turning the place into actual magma. Which would work just fine too as it would never allow Alex to regen.
 
Catch her with 4km of space between them? You need a whole argument for that.

A 4 km starting distance which you refused to shorten. Are you trying to give Stella a huge advantage here by giving Mercer a huge disadvantage in return?
 
Since she hasn't done it before Im call bull on her leaving a fire under mercer, the heat of magma Isn't actually that high so 1200 C so thats not keeping him from reforming from what i can gather. I was using your argument about heat and gasses rising earlier in the thread so...Yeah.

Completley inactive mind....Missing most of your head, serious doubt this vauge ill explained ability will work.

except if mercer kept going foward he could have gotten farther from the epicenter turning around to head back to the shore was the incorrect descion. If he was truly worried/terrified about his survival he would have attempted to escape the blast radius as fast as possible.

Not the point though if your really want to argue alex regen more this isn't the place but your debunks have been said before and they shot down rather quickly.

also this starting distance means mercer can't really do anything so...Id shorten it a bit to make it an actual fight. Cause at the moment she's liable to turn alex to vapor realize the fight is still on and ee him. Though alex does have a crt that could boost him to 7b I believe.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Yes, but that's just an unusual virus, but a virus none the less. Example most humans don't benchpres 500kg but Eddie Hall is still human. Get my point? The fact that's it's still just a virus would give it virus weaknesses unless stated otherwise. And not beng noted to be weak to heat doesn't mean it's not. It has to be noted it's not weak to heat.

It attacks the consciousness, not the brain. He can move without a head (i don't remember that, but ok), but he still has a mind. He came out ok out of a nuke due to sheer luck (which i forgot an argument as to why Mercer's regen isn't as good, cus he wouldn't have run away from the nuke if it he had no problem regening from it but ok), if he sees someone use that same nuke but far better, bigger and stronger. He'd think he's dead for sure.

I mean, would you just go like "oh look my opponent just farted out blood red gas out of, i wonder what happens if i inhale it, i should try". And "not what he looks to be", well i mean "a dude who mutates and farts out really suspicous looking gas" is rather easy to assume he's not what he's seems to be.

Technically, due to the fact that alex doesn't resist heat and that he's a virus, wouldn't even Bahamut Howl seal the deal here? It would deactivate the virus inside mercer turning him normal. Also it's not "one of her abilities" as much as it is just her existing after she transforms.
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Conventional viruses does not effortlessly tank heat from thermobaric tanks at point-blank, which can cause explosions that has 8-A AP. The total output of the Sun (including its core) has 8-A AP against human-sized targets when we're talking about the heat. That means Stella's "15 million degrees" is irrelevant here as far as the heat of the Sun goes. You assuming that Mercer being weak to heat like conventional viruses do (when he has displayed feats that already puts him far beyond any conventional viruses) are pretty iffy points when Mercer withstood a point-blank thermobaric tank explosion, and survived a nuclear fireball.

If we're assuming that Stella's "tricking thoughts" ability works on the mind, then it works as Mind Manipulation by default. And like Mind Manipulation, Stella would need evidence for the sheer volumes of mind she has affected to be able to get past Mercer's resistance to Mind Manipulation (which includes having a hive mind containing millions of minds). And I'm pretty sure her "Social Influencing" seems more like outright Mind Manipulation at that point from the "deceiving the mind" part, rather than actually using some type of social skills.

Stella wouldn't even know that those gasses are dangerous. With fights (via SBA) that assumes that characters has absolutely no prior knowledge over each other, Stella would at best assume that the gasses Mercer unleashes is a smokescreen of some kind.

And you points about Mercer "being a virus, thus not resisting heat like conventional viruses" is already a moot point when Mercer has shrugged off extreme heat or survived them before.
 
Also sorry about not adressing your points in a specific order, I basically write the points as I think of a response and its...not the most organized system, I could rearrange the paragraghs I usually don't bother apologies.

edit bambu confirmed plasma does not bypass mid high as its still a gas.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
He turned around cus who knows how much water was on the other side he would never have been able to reach the shore like that. He was aiming for the shore ofc he would turn around.

That's not how reforming works. What do you think he is? Majin Buu? He doesn't just go "lol vapor" away into a safe place he reforms by creating blobs. Well she hasn't shown it but she has shown other things like turning the place into actual magma. Which would work just fine too as it would never allow Alex to regen.
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Yeah, I am not going to bother to properly address that.

Mercer has Mid-High Regenerationn rating in his profile, thus he has Mid-High Regenerationn here, so your assumptions isn't going to change otherwise for this matchup.

Magma also isn't even that hot. Certainly doesn't seem like it can compare to the explosion of thermobarric tanks.

Edit: From what Pen said, Magma is 1200 degrees Celcius. A thermobarric weapon gives of heat of 2200 kelvins (which is around 1926.85 Celsius) from what I can see. Yeah, mere Magma isn't doing anything to Mercer.
 
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