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This includes outside the universe, as it is Eru who prevents them from leaving Arda, and they had to cross into the universe to enter Arda.
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LOTR verse speed
- Thread starter Arceus0x
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I was going to suggest that sounds like omnipresent, but than if Tyranno's comment is true, where they just remove anywhere within and outside the universe and it takes 0 time to travel anywhere. Then Infinite speed might be okay in my book.
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For added clarity by the way, possible anti-feats of the Spirit forms of Ainur not moving to a location instantly are accounted by Tolkien, as he says they can choose to move elsewhere instantly, or at a lower speed.
So it's more like a varies up to infinite, depending on how fast they want to move.
So it's more like a varies up to infinite, depending on how fast they want to move.
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By the way, is the Vigilot accepted as MFTL+?
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The subject of discussion before the current topic. The ship that went past an I innumerable number of stars before returning in a reasonable timeframe.
It's just above.
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Great, so we have a solid speed for the Ainur, and a solid, but vague one for the LOTR High and Top tiers.
Hellbeast
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Could it be they aren’t as fast outside bodiless forms
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You are correct, their spirit/true/original forms are seperate to their physical forms in regards to speed.
The quotes above mention this afterall, as they need to discard their physical shell to move at such speeds.
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The Vigilot was shown to be capable of flying past an innumerable number of stars in a reasonable timeframe, so an unknown level of mftl+.
Ancalagon and his winged dragons fought against Earendil riding atop Vigilot, alongside the Eagles of Manwe, so they should scale.
Sauron is the greatest of Melkor's servants so he probably scales above Ancalagon, and by proxy, so do any who compare to him.
Although truth be told, this might need more insight, as cases like Eonwe or Manwe being physically MFTL+ is reasonable, but I'm unsure of Elendil, and Gil-Galad.
Otherwise there's the Balrog speed feat, which I believe is somewhere in the hypersonic or high hypersonic range.
I believe Varda also has her feat of creating the constellations in a relatively short timeframe, but it's rather vague how short this was, possibly even being years.
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That is one of the possible issues, but of course, even if it was travel speed, Earendil navigated the ship without crashing into Arda with just his senses, and Ancalagon was obviously able to keep up with its movements.
Still, I'm personally thinking of a potentially MFTL+ rating, but I'd need more opinions.
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Here they are:
vsbattles.fandom.com
Speed
Speed is simply how fast a character can move in a given amount of time. There are five types of speed used for VS purposes: Attack Speed, Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Travel Speed, and Flight Speed. The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed. The speed at which an attack moves. For...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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I believe travel speed is fine, but for one issue.Here they are:
Speed
Speed is simply how fast a character can move in a given amount of time. There are five types of speed used for VS purposes: Attack Speed, Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Travel Speed, and Flight Speed. The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed. The speed at which an attack moves. For...
Earendil flew the ship into battle, and by all accounts, was not perceived as exceptionally faster than his opponents, the winged dragons.
Would an at least, and possibly be advisable?
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There's also the fact that whilst the feat does seem legitimate, it's rather a one off all things considered, and whilst there's nothing to contradict it persay (indeed, the Ainur can move at faster speeds without a body), it does seem a bit out there.
That could strengthen a travel speed MFTL+, or a only potentially MFTL+ rating.
That could strengthen a travel speed MFTL+, or a only potentially MFTL+ rating.
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If they are shown to be able to engage in combat mid-flight, I'd say it scales to combat speed and reactions as well.
If not, just leave it as travel speed.
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It's unknown. We know there was an extended battle, but we don't know the details too well. I'll check the text again later to make sure, but the details are vague.
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I see.
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"Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.
But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed..."
But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed..."
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So it was a battle that lasted day and night, till before the sun rose.
Any judgements from that.
Any judgements from that.
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Indeed, but the vaugness leaves room for all manner od speculation. It's why I'm personally in favour of a "possibly" rating, but I'll defer to the majority.
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Bump.
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@Goodyfresh @Colonel_Krukov @Newendigo @Legion350 @DarkDragonMedeus @Edenstar @InfiniteSped @GojiBoyForever @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
Would any of you be willing to help us evaluate whether this should scale to Massively FTL+ flight speed only, or combat speed as well, please?
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I guess I'll wait for the majority's opinion as well, this seems a bit vague to me as well. Granted I don't know jackshit about LOTR to give any meaningful contribution.
Colonel_Krukov
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I'm not really knowledgeable enough to comment on this topic, sorry.
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Impossible to say if it scales to combat since we know basically nothing about the fight. And that's assuming the distances are that high since the stars might not be as far as irl considering the flat earth cosmology, with the sun and moon being smol ships flying around the planet.
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The cosmology of LOTR is rather confusing. Not even the state of the world pre-Fall of Numenor is decided, with some stating Arda was always spherical.
Regarding the Sun and Moon in particular, the size of the vessels carrying the fruits is unknown, other than early accounts stating immensity. Moreover, LOTR is meant to be a past to our current world, and notes that are compiled in works like NOME, reflect this (the moon reflects light, not generating it, and objects believed to be stars were planets like Venus, the Elves of Valinor being more aware of scientific truths, etc).
This is something I intend to look into at a later date at least.
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Should we then delay this particular speed discussion till the cosmological one? Though that will take quite a lot of time.
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Well, if they moved that fast via flapping their wings really fast; I think it would qualify for combat speed scaling normally. Same with being able to basically sneak up and ambush with a speed like that and fight as they fly really fast and the like.
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