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Tolkien Empathic Manip Layers and Fear Manipulation

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Welp, might as well finally get this simple thing over with.


Empathic Manipulation Layer:​

Honestly this is self-evident from just looking at the Elven Physiology page and the Powers and Resistances of the Ainur page.

So firstly, there is one very obvious layer.

Elves as a baseline have Empathic Manipulation and resistance to it. However, High Elves and the Ainur can still inspire awe and other emotions in them. In fact, the Valar need to veil their true majesty to prevent the loss of their free-will. This is listed across both pages.

There is a second layer for the Valar and Greater Maiar however.

The forms that the Valar in Valinor are explicitly meant to avoid over "aweing" the Elves. This means that they should be capable of aweing even the Elves that reside in Valinor, the High-Elves, into such a state that their free-will is forfeit as is listed on page.

Moreover, for some lesser support, Elwë was able to awe the elves of Middle-Earth to an even greater extent upon being elevated by the light of Melian (whereupon his awe was compared to a Maia) than he had as High-Elf.

"But when Elwë awoke from his long trance, he came forth from Nan Elmoth with Melian, and they dwelt thereafter in the woods in the midst of the land. Greatly though he had desired to see again the light of the Trees, in the face of Melian he beheld the light of Aman as in an unclouded mirror, and in that light he was content. His people gathered about him in joy, and they were amazed; for fair and noble as he had been, now he appeared as it were a lord of the Maiar, his hair as grey silver, tallest of all the Children of Ilúvatar; and a high doom was before him..." - The Silmarillion, Chapter 5: Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië



Morgoth and Sauron Fear Manipulation:


Another rather evident revision. This is already on profile but rather lacking in detail.

"For it is recorded in the histories that Morgoth, and Sauron after him, would drive out the fëa by terror, and then feed the body and make it a beast. Or worse: he would daunt the fëa within the body and reduce it to impotence;[11] and then nourish the body foully, so that it became bestial, to the horror and torment of the fëa.)" - The Nature of Middle-Earth Part Two: Body, Mind and Spirit, XVII Death
  • "11 As originally typed this clause read: “and reduce it to a stupor of horror so that it was impotent”" - for the footnote regarding impotence
Essentially Morgoth, and later Sauron, could either drive the fëa, aka the "soul, indwelling spirit of an incarnate being" (Morgoth's Ring, "Appendix to the Index: Elvish words and terms", p. 470), out of the body or make it catatonic with fear.

This should be passive as we see that Luthien gets knocked out by the sheer terror of just Sauron's presence.

"So great was the horror of his approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath." - The Silmarillion, Chapter 19: Of Beren and Luthien
  • This is actually rather impressive as Luthien could endure the direct terror of Morgoth's eyes that can similarily to the awe of the Valar, basically rid someone of their free-will
    • "...but Lúthien was stripped of her disguise by the will of Morgoth, and he bent his gaze upon her. She was not daunted by his eyes;" - The Silmarillion, Chapter 19: Of Beren and Luthien
    • "And desiring above all to sow fear and disunion among the Eldar, he commanded the Orcs to take alive any of them that they could and bring them bound to Angband; and some he so daunted by the terror of his eyes that they needed no chains more, but walked ever in fear of him, doing his will wherever they might be. Thus Morgoth learned much of all that had befallen since the rebellion of Fëanor, and he rejoiced, seeing therein the seed of many dissensions among his foes." - The Silmarillion, Chapter 13: Of the Return of the Noldor
  • Notably it's unknown if Sauron had accomplished the art of driving the soul of the body with terror alone yet so it may be that he simply hadn't the capability yet. Either way, he should have a layer here too for affecting Luthien when even Morgoth could not.


TLDR:
Empathic Manipulation:
  • One layer for High-Elves and Maiar
  • Two layers for Greater Maiar and Valar
Fear Manipulation:
  • Morgoth, and later Sauron at an unknown point, can either drive the soul out of the body with fear or render it powerless
  • Sauron can (weirdly tbh) invoke fear in those who resist Morgoth's terror = one layer there.
    • IF we take Sauron as not being at this level of FM yet, he was still able to knock people out before getting this proficient.
    • If not that, then resisting Sauron's FM still knocks out people who resist the initial FM layer
  • Anyone who can endure Sauron or Morgoth's presence naturally resists these.
 
This seems fine to me.

Which staff members have helped out during past LotR revision threads, so I can call for them? 🙏
 
Looks fine, though Sauron having higher fear hax than Morgoth is a tad weird.
Yeah, It's weird to me too tbh. The two don't really interact much either so this is weirdly an independent case.

I'll need to find a statement or something about Morgoth being "the most terrifying" being or something if it exists.
 
I believe this has passed with 2 staff?

Sauron and Morgoth's pages please be unlocked?

Sauron

Morgoth

(Currently on mobile, will edit later)
 
Sauron and Morgoth's pages please be unlocked?

Sauron

Morgoth
They're unlocked.
(Currently on mobile, will edit later)
Let us know when you're done so we can lock the profiles and thread.
 
They're unlocked.

Let us know when you're done so we can lock the profiles and thread.
Finished.

Sorry, but do you mind unlocking Elven Physiology (Tolkien) as well? I assumed it was unlocked since Powers and Resistances of the Ainur was unlocked as well...

Actually, that page should probably be locked most of the time.



As an additional, I added some additional examples since the full description of the above justification for Sauron's passive FM is actually regarding a specific form.

"Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world; and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge. So great was the horror of his approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath."

Didn't matter much since pretty much every form of his that isn't "fair" and "beautiful" causes a passive terror in some way.
  • "Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Taur-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror."
  • "There he took up again his great Ring in Baraddûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure."
  • "There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure."
  • "He took Minas Tirith by assault, for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; and Orodreth was driven out, and fled to Nargothrond. Then Sauron made it into a watch-tower for Morgoth, a stronghold of evil, and a menace; and the fair isle of Tol Sirion became accursed, and it was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves."
He just tends to inspire passive terror as a whole. Even causes locations to become terrifying by inhabiting them (like a forest).
 
@Tyranno223

I have unlocked the page that you requested:


What else currently needs to be done here? 🙏
 
@Tyranno223

I have unlocked the page that you requested:


What else currently needs to be done here? 🙏
Thanks! I just needed to add the 1 Layer change and it's done now.

These pages can be locked now, thanks again!
Powers and Resistances of the Ainur
Elven Physiology (Tolkien)
Morgoth
Sauron
 
No problem, and I have handled it. 🙏
 
Do we currently need to do something here, or should we close this thread? 🙏
 
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