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Please discuss things regarding how strong she is/is not here. Please? As opposed to, you know, filling up the entirety of the comments section on her page with it? Just thought it'd be nice.
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Look!! It's a Tifa page!!
- Thread starter ThePerpetual
- Start date
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Good Idea *Claps quietly in approval
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The page now has 69 comments, literally all but two of them just being complaints about the stats.
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- Thread starter
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@Everlasting My point exactly. :/
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I think they finally gave up
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Nope, the stat complaint comment count is now 68 with one guy complaining about the FFVII stats as a whole.
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I wonder who that could be?The Everlasting said:
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And we'll just keep going in circles about that matter.
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- Gets in an epic stance and shouts "Comrades, we will now face a wave of downplayers, so stay strong!"
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The scaling from Loz is a hard read imo. On the one hand, he does seem to make adible sounds when she hits him, but she doesn't seem to draw blood or have dealt notable damage outside of being an unexpected inconvience to him.
On the other hand, I'm not quite so sure Loz made easy work of her either. I always figured that his weapon was a sort of debuff on her and its electro-whatever was dulling her reflexes — she takes 3 hits from it in passing and then two big hits after he turns the fight around. So, on the one hand, ya, once he stepped up the game, Loz made quick work of her, but on the other hand, Tifa (imo) wasn't putting up her A-game either and his speed burst definiately caught her by surprise tactiaclly, but not necessarily as a complete speed blitz.
Afterall, Cloud demonstrated early in the film he could get whomped by the Remnants, and than at the later end, when he got his focus, he made pretty quick work of them. I don't think its too far off to think Tifa had something similiar going on as well and she just wasn't prepared for that level of a fight.
On the other hand, I'm not quite so sure Loz made easy work of her either. I always figured that his weapon was a sort of debuff on her and its electro-whatever was dulling her reflexes — she takes 3 hits from it in passing and then two big hits after he turns the fight around. So, on the one hand, ya, once he stepped up the game, Loz made quick work of her, but on the other hand, Tifa (imo) wasn't putting up her A-game either and his speed burst definiately caught her by surprise tactiaclly, but not necessarily as a complete speed blitz.
Afterall, Cloud demonstrated early in the film he could get whomped by the Remnants, and than at the later end, when he got his focus, he made pretty quick work of them. I don't think its too far off to think Tifa had something similiar going on as well and she just wasn't prepared for that level of a fight.
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@Non-Bias seeing the tiers of some characters was shocking to me too, like Mario or how far Naruto has come
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Read Zack's page and note that virtually anyone important is stronger than him.
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@Non-Bias i understand your reasoning, but its quite common that op characters are thought as weak til they actually have a decent power scaleing or feat
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Yeah, as the Kingdom Hearts verse page used to note, they used to be considered Mach 3 and Building level, now they're Large Planet level and FTL+. Verses can get huge boosts once someone finds a feat that wasn't noticed before.
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^ You're both right about how drastic changes can happen once things are taken into consideration. It's just that visually, I never once considered Tifa, Cloud, and Sora that powerful because it doesn't look like they're that powerful on games/movies. That's just me though. I usually suck at most scaling unless it's obvious.
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If your still confused, look at it this way:
Bahamut Fury is stronger than Typhoon (Who is able to do this).
Genesis Rhapsodos was considered a greater threat than Bahamut Fury.
Zack not only defeated Bahamut Fury, but Genesis as well.
Sephiroth is stronger than Zack.
And the rest of the scaling speaks for itself.
Bahamut Fury is stronger than Typhoon (Who is able to do this).
Genesis Rhapsodos was considered a greater threat than Bahamut Fury.
Zack not only defeated Bahamut Fury, but Genesis as well.
Sephiroth is stronger than Zack.
And the rest of the scaling speaks for itself.
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I'm still incredibly confused at the seemingly monstrous problem people have with powerscaling Final Fantasy. I'm indifferent to the whole Tifa affair, but completely ignoring powerscaling for a single franchise simply because it doesn't "feel right" is ridiculous.
Can you imagine doing something like that for DBZ? Looking at the original manga and completely taking out powerscaling, Cell is an Island buster, Buu is a planet buster, Raditz is a wall buster, Nappa is a city buster, etc. Only using a character's own destructive showings while refusing to acknowledge fights against characters who have demonstrated far higher levels of power leads to absolutely useless statistics.
Can you imagine doing something like that for DBZ? Looking at the original manga and completely taking out powerscaling, Cell is an Island buster, Buu is a planet buster, Raditz is a wall buster, Nappa is a city buster, etc. Only using a character's own destructive showings while refusing to acknowledge fights against characters who have demonstrated far higher levels of power leads to absolutely useless statistics.
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It's questionable to rank Tifa as 5-A, based soley on her fight with Loz. I believe he was holding back at the time. However, I do believe she's around 6-A based around actual gameplay feats
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I personally would see no problem with "At least Continent level, possibly Large Planet level" and then citing gameplay feats along with the events of Advent Children, though I don't know how others feel about this.
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^I'd be fine with that
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One aspect of Tifa's representation of her power that may be a problem for others to properly gauge it is that it is never properly shown in whatever medium she is in. Some may claim that what is shown in the game is not accurate as it is rpg mechanics and AC as an animation has a problem that some series, say DBZ, does not have. DBZ made a point of showing that the characters are moving faster than the eye can see, therefore, if you see them normally, that means that is not normal speed, it has been slowed down for one's viewing pleasure. This was never established in AC, so for a viewer, it makes it seem that time is passing at normal speed therefore what speed the characters are traveling is their actual speed. Personally, this is most obviously seen when Cloud kills bahamut. While flying in the air, animation wise, he looks like he's moving really slowly. I do not know whether or not AC is a completely canon representation of FF7 and if some wish to see as non-canon, it is understandable they question comparing her to Loz. Though, this comes back to what has been already stated. Because Tifa's power is not clearly shown in the mediums she is represented in, it is highly important to measure those she has fought. As stated, this list include a Sephiroth clone, the Weapons, and along side the others, Full Power Sephiroth. Now, from the FP Sephiroth fight, we can infer that she is relatively at least around an 8th of his power. Now, certain characters are of course stronger than others, such as Cloud or Vincent, but this also applies to Tifa. Hopefully, at least with this comparison, people understand she is more than just a brawler with Superstrength during her limits...
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I feel as though her current ranking is fine as it is.
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- Thread starter
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More like "likely 5-A", to be honest, given that potentially scaling to Cloud is also a thing.
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So..i'm really curious, what feat and logic line lead to the FF7 character's being FTL+? I've played through the games and watched Advent children and animated shorts (granted its been a while), but not once did it seem to present any of those characters as FTL. Maybe supersonic or lighting fast, but not faster then light. Even the friends I've asked about these chracters never got the impression they were nearly this fast or strong.
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The reason why becuase they pick Yang as there waifu more better then Tifa.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
When they see her stats as 5-A they all get mad at it so there Yang is always better! People didn't care about her being 5-A till that Death Battle came out. So it make sense.
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It involves Bahamut Fury's Exalfare attack in Crisis Core, as BF flies to another planet in 11 seconds, and the minimum distance between two planets is 38,000,000 kilometers, which takes light 126 seconds to cross. Zack was able to defeat Bahamut Fury and Genesis, who is stronger than BF.Zeshinumi said:
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Watching that cutscene....that planet looks way too close in scale to the main planet, though that's beside the point. My question is how does its speed in space = zacks speed fighting it on ground? That would quntify Bahamut's speed in space traveling, but if zack can beat him doesn't mean he has to be as fast. This also falls into another issue which is hard to quantify with rpg characters is that when you fight the monsters, they dont run. Even in advent children, Bahamut didnt even try to dodge cloud's attack, so its possible BF to be FTL with all FF characters not even FTL because Bahamut doesn't dodge attacks. I'll looks up scenes when I get time about zacks fight with bahamut, then genesis, but all cutscenes ive seen thus far of normal FF character is they don't go FTL at all, maybe supersonic or lighting speed, maybe, but no where near FTL, let alone FTL+
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Planets literally need to be a certain distance between each other or their gravitational fields cause them to collide.
Bahamut Fury would need reactions to follow his own movements, figure out when to stop and gather its bearings to preform its Exaflare attack. The very fact that Zack can hit him qualifies for that level of speed.
Bahamut Fury would need reactions to follow his own movements, figure out when to stop and gather its bearings to preform its Exaflare attack. The very fact that Zack can hit him qualifies for that level of speed.
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ok, so i watched both the fights of buhamut fighting in advent children and a play of crisus core where zack fights against buhaumut fury....So first off I'm gonna point out somthing kinda major that's rather annoying to use the ExaFlare as a feat for speed. When BF flys out into space, he then flys back twords the planet, to which he passes under this "planet" in orbit. I air quote it, because compared to the size of BF, that thing is no more then a big astroid. Comparing BF to Zacks size in the fight, he's gotta be somthing like between 50'-100' tall. The moment he flys back under the astorid during ExaFlare, it looks like he might be somewhere between 1/20 to 1/30 of the size of the rock, but by his girth+wings rather then height. This puts that "planet" to somthing less then a mile in diameter even if you take the extremes and say from BF's chest to his arched wings is 100' across. And then BF moved closer to the normal planet..which made that object appear way closer then it should be able to be.
Main point I'm trying to make is either that planet is more of an astroid held up by magic, or as per usual with FF summon attacks its an over the top action packed attack of Buhamut (which is somthing i love about FF summons
). And regaurdless of this fact, weither or not he is actually flying FTL or not, this is still TRAVEL speed, in space. When Buhamut fights, he uses none of this to his advantage, meaning even slower characters can hit him. Even in the crisis core fight, his swings were super slow. He doesnt dodge any attack zack attempts, which means any of his attacks could be the speed of a normal foot solider and still clang agianst him. So in all this doesn't seem conclusive that zack is FTL to attack him, because he NEVER dodges
Main point I'm trying to make is either that planet is more of an astroid held up by magic, or as per usual with FF summon attacks its an over the top action packed attack of Buhamut (which is somthing i love about FF summons
). And regaurdless of this fact, weither or not he is actually flying FTL or not, this is still TRAVEL speed, in space. When Buhamut fights, he uses none of this to his advantage, meaning even slower characters can hit him. Even in the crisis core fight, his swings were super slow. He doesnt dodge any attack zack attempts, which means any of his attacks could be the speed of a normal foot solider and still clang agianst him. So in all this doesn't seem conclusive that zack is FTL to attack him, because he NEVER dodges
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The thing is a moon above an entirely different planet actually. It's called visual scaling issues, not to mention he's very far away. His attack involves destroying a moon above another planet and then hitting Zack with an energy beam.
He has reactions as well, and Zack is capable of hitting Bahamut Fury. Bahamut Fury not dodging attacks is gameplay mechanics, simply that, same with his attacks appearing very slow.
He has reactions as well, and Zack is capable of hitting Bahamut Fury. Bahamut Fury not dodging attacks is gameplay mechanics, simply that, same with his attacks appearing very slow.
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well my point is if there is visual scaling isses, then there could be time span scaling issues, which means the actual time it took for him to travel from point a to b is not exact, and speculation of his speed is just that, specualation at best. He's never shown using any moves that utilize after image, a classic trope for FTL uses since you move so fast where you visual are isnt where people precieve you to be since youre moving FTL.
Now somthing I will point out is a issue in this argument. You'll agree that the fact BF is slow is game mechanics, but disagree that his speed and power are not. This is comfimation bias, you cant say game mechanics make him appear slow, but ignore that his flight taking the time it did is simply because no one wants to wait an hour for him to do an attack. This is all game mechanics, designed to make the game playable, not a display of exact feats of speed.
Now, the main point i want to drive why BF's fighting style is to not give a crap and not bother dodging is the portraial of buhamut in Advent Children. His hide is so thick cloud couldnt hit him, and he never bothered to dodge. This clearly indicates hes a tank of a creature who doesn't care to dodge because he doesnt need to, and its not much of a leap to assume this applies to his counter parts. If you could pull an example of any Buhamut in any FF being portrate to use after image effects, or even attempting to dodge attacks so fast that it takes a single frame to do so, then i'd agree that he require FTL speed to hit, otherwise there is a sheer lack of evidence proving otherwise.
Now somthing I will point out is a issue in this argument. You'll agree that the fact BF is slow is game mechanics, but disagree that his speed and power are not. This is comfimation bias, you cant say game mechanics make him appear slow, but ignore that his flight taking the time it did is simply because no one wants to wait an hour for him to do an attack. This is all game mechanics, designed to make the game playable, not a display of exact feats of speed.
Now, the main point i want to drive why BF's fighting style is to not give a crap and not bother dodging is the portraial of buhamut in Advent Children. His hide is so thick cloud couldnt hit him, and he never bothered to dodge. This clearly indicates hes a tank of a creature who doesn't care to dodge because he doesnt need to, and its not much of a leap to assume this applies to his counter parts. If you could pull an example of any Buhamut in any FF being portrate to use after image effects, or even attempting to dodge attacks so fast that it takes a single frame to do so, then i'd agree that he require FTL speed to hit, otherwise there is a sheer lack of evidence proving otherwise.
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Also somthing I wanted to mention, which i sort o mention in my previous posts here, flight speed does not equal fighting speed in anyway. How fast you can move your legs is independent of your fists, and how fast a character can fly logicaly from that standpoint is indipendent of their limbs. On top of that, FTL flight through space could be described in many ways, and the most logical is spacial distortion. IE you fly by pulling space, like how gravity distorts space, rather then trying to exceed speed of light (which requires infinite ammount of energy) such that to everyone else you appear to be flying faster then light, when in actuality you're doing the equivilent of taking a spacial shortcut. But, the way someone flys is usualy independent of their fighting style, unless they fight by doing fly bys constently, which i will point out, BF does not.
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Nope, ity simply means I want to ignore this and just leave it be.
That's a visual trope not all fictions need to use, like how tons of fiction don't make hypersonic characters make sonic booms when they move.
Think about this from a story perspective. Bahamut Fury would obviously try to dodge Zack's attacks during their fight, which, given that Zack won the fight, obviously means it didn't work.
Using Bahamut Sin as a means of arguing against Bahamut Fury is a very bad example because they are two entirely different entities. There's absolutely no reason to assume that trait applies to Bahamut Fury.
FTL travel is extremely common in fiction without the use of real life science to try and justify it, this is one of those examples.
About flight speed not equaling flying speed, the thing here is that Bahamut Fury would logically need FTL+ reactions to stop and get its bearings, unless it somehow knew exactly how long to fly.
That's a visual trope not all fictions need to use, like how tons of fiction don't make hypersonic characters make sonic booms when they move.
Think about this from a story perspective. Bahamut Fury would obviously try to dodge Zack's attacks during their fight, which, given that Zack won the fight, obviously means it didn't work.
Using Bahamut Sin as a means of arguing against Bahamut Fury is a very bad example because they are two entirely different entities. There's absolutely no reason to assume that trait applies to Bahamut Fury.
FTL travel is extremely common in fiction without the use of real life science to try and justify it, this is one of those examples.
About flight speed not equaling flying speed, the thing here is that Bahamut Fury would logically need FTL+ reactions to stop and get its bearings, unless it somehow knew exactly how long to fly.
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I used Bahamut Sin as a comparitive to see how the company who uses this characters likes to portray said characters like how shiva and ifrit are portrayed. Bahamut is never portrayed as a character who flash dodges attacks, hes more too tankish to care and blasts you from above.
I will also point out even if you had the ability to react to somthing at a certain speed, doesnt mean you can or will dodge attacks at that speed. Your argument banks on the fact that since in a cutscene for an attack he flew through space for that given time that means he can dodge and move on a dime to dodge attacks FTL. But in no instance is he ever portayed to do so beyond that one cinimatic, and of all the content I can find does any character preform actual feats leading to belive this cinimatic wasn't more then just flashy rpg mechincs (rather then cannnon attributes). On top of that, when he does fly through that scene, he flys straight and slows down, meaning IF he could fly at that speed he needs a lot of room to do so. If he had 5 feet to move, he might not be able to build the momentum needed to go that fast. So I would argue IF he had FTL speed, he doesnt have the ability to jump to a momentum required to use it effectivly in short distances, ergo can't FTL dodge.
If by logic Zack could hit and move at a faster then light speed, the last scene where hes getting shot would mean he could strike every single bullet shot at him because the effeort to do that would be substantiouly lower, plus he could, also, attack each of those men with one swift strike. I don't think the artists who designed zack intended for him to be a speedster, otherwise somthing somewhere in some part of the story would indicate this. And if you claim that scene, which is spesificly a story element, is not a realistic protraly of speed and just story bull, same can be said about the cinimatic. Overall its poor evidence for the speed theory and rides too much on speculation where everything else doesn't support it.
I will also point out even if you had the ability to react to somthing at a certain speed, doesnt mean you can or will dodge attacks at that speed. Your argument banks on the fact that since in a cutscene for an attack he flew through space for that given time that means he can dodge and move on a dime to dodge attacks FTL. But in no instance is he ever portayed to do so beyond that one cinimatic, and of all the content I can find does any character preform actual feats leading to belive this cinimatic wasn't more then just flashy rpg mechincs (rather then cannnon attributes). On top of that, when he does fly through that scene, he flys straight and slows down, meaning IF he could fly at that speed he needs a lot of room to do so. If he had 5 feet to move, he might not be able to build the momentum needed to go that fast. So I would argue IF he had FTL speed, he doesnt have the ability to jump to a momentum required to use it effectivly in short distances, ergo can't FTL dodge.
If by logic Zack could hit and move at a faster then light speed, the last scene where hes getting shot would mean he could strike every single bullet shot at him because the effeort to do that would be substantiouly lower, plus he could, also, attack each of those men with one swift strike. I don't think the artists who designed zack intended for him to be a speedster, otherwise somthing somewhere in some part of the story would indicate this. And if you claim that scene, which is spesificly a story element, is not a realistic protraly of speed and just story bull, same can be said about the cinimatic. Overall its poor evidence for the speed theory and rides too much on speculation where everything else doesn't support it.
