Look!! It's a Tifa page!!

[Zeshinumi]

it just seems like the FF characters were never displayed as speedsters. I mean if all the characters were that fast why are they ever hit by common soldiers or monsters? Is literaly everyone in the FF7 universe FTL? By your logic, zack could hit buhamut = FTL because of his flight speed (totaly ignoring his combat style or momentum of such), ergo genisus is FTL because he can hit him, ergo septh is FTL because they can fight, ergo tifa is FTL because otherwise she would be useless would HAVE to mean every single enemy that could ever hit tifa is FTL. Ignoreing that logic but keeping the prior would be yet again confirmation bias because you're accepting one detail which confirms your fact while ignoring the next. So tell me, is literaly everyone in the FF7 world FTL despite never being described as such or protrayed as such artisiticly?

 

[Zeshinumi]

So...just gonna say, if all this logic is accepted as fact, you should add the average shinra foot soilder as a FTL planet buster because they shot and killed zack, they could hit cloud and any of the FF characters. Which also means the average foot solider is faster then sonic...according to this logic

 

[Zeshinumi]

also wanted to point out visually buhamut's fury's flight shows evidence of spacial distortion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQWRAEVPVcc go to 9 seconds in, also parts in the beginning. The area around him is brghting and distorts the camera's view, which could indicat his FTL speed is more like a warp drive, which would mean if he was flying FTL in the fight he should be warping the area. However, NEVER in the fight was there any spacial distortion of any kind, which indicates he NEVER moves FTL in the fight. This further supports that his travel speed could be considered disconnected from his fighting speed. Also, just because he can fly FTL doesnt mean he needs FTL sences to know where hes going. As he fly the spacial distrotion happens in bursts, which means it could be he's jumping from spot to spot as he flys, so he only flys to where he can see.

AND I will continue to also point out, this cut scene was meant to be an over the top attack typical of FF fights that arn't an actual portraly of their abilities. I mean that attack someone calcuated the energy of that attack here http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=26489 and its well more then enough to destory our planet or one bigger...yet didnt. It's an over the top cutscene, and scales the characters to an unbelivable level, scaling everything to it making them ridiculus for the sake of it. It doesn't seem cannon for comparison of their actual feats intended by the artists who made the characters.

 

[Xenterex]

So...just gonna say, if all this logic is accepted as fact, you should add the average shinra foot soilder as a FTL planet buster because they shot and killed zack, they could hit cloud and any of the FF characters. Which also means the average foot solider is faster then sonic...according to this logic

You're both correct and incorrect with that. While I personally don't agree with the scaling off of Fury, the 'fodder' level approach for FF7 is indeed superhuman as a conditional basepoint. Shinra doesn't recruit any and everybody by just tossing them into a uniform and calling it a day: this is a world were people have to deal with 'real' monsters and the common citizen has access to super-human powers via materia from the local grocery. In casual passing from town to town, normal NPC's talk about the influence of materia and limit breaks in their lives, those are cannon influences to that world — and this includes offensive and defensive aspects as people can be hit by cars and get back up again.

This isn't just joe-shmoe can now toss out fireballs, but also aspects of gravitational and temporal manipulation: ie, people can be augmented to be faster/stronger/etc than they would otherwise be, and in ways that may be overlooked. SOLIDER members stand out because their mako influsions would essentially give them 'buffs' as their baseline starting point that can then be further augmented by materia.

This notion is part of why the characters transition from one level of strength at the start of the game, to a whole different point by the end of the game: early disc 1 has a low-class SOLDIER be a boss, while end-game, SOLDIER elites are cannon fodder. Some of this is further expounded up in the combat differences between olf FF7 and how the game is presented in Crisis Core, which may then be further altered by the upcoming remake for FF7 that will probably be more stylistically invested in demonstrated more superhuman feats for that world.

 

[Zeshinumi]

I would agree that their stats are superhuman+ via materia augmentation (also based on some of their feats), but clasifying their speed as FTL+ just seems absured when you consider all the cutscenes and plot points of the game. FTL+ would mean the characters can get anywhere on the planet in a matter of seconds, could dodge bullets with zero effort, and other speedster like feats. They use vehicals quite often, and even when they were on foot would still take time to get places that were beyond seconds, at least.

 

[The_Everlasting]

This could be attributed to them having superior combat speed compared to their travel speed.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Or perhaps simply gameplay mechanics, since that shows up literally all the time in every game ever. Basic soldiers being FTL is just silly, they're fodder. They don't scale to stuff like this, only top-tiers do.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Or perhaps simply fiction is simply nonsensically inconsistent, since that shows up literally all the time in fictio. Basic soldiers being FTL is just silly, they're fodder. They don't scale to stuff like this, only top-tiers do.

FTFY

This kind of bullshit isn't exclusive to games... nor a byproduct of game mechanics

Its a terminology about as misused as Emo

 

[ThePerpetual]

The specific complaint you have is about how game enemies are able to take on main characters stat-wise when going by our tiering system, when realistically they should be slaughtered en masse. Issues of this sort occur far more frequently in games than in other sorts of fiction: if a certain sort of thug is unable to beat, say, Batman in a fistfight, it's ability to suddenly to do so in a Batman game is a game mechanic. That sort of thing rarely happens in comic books, they, like other forms of media, have their own set of issues that they more frequently contend with when it comes to power-scaling.

Here's an entire page on Game Mechanics , in fact, if you are curious.

I never said it was exclusive to games, don't put words in my mouth.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Game enemy, random mook from some organization in Kamen Rider, this pops up everywhere. Its not because its a game exclusively... nor is it how games should be viewed. We call this kind of shit an inconsistency anywhere else, games don't need a special label. Frequency of an inconsistency doesn't make it a "game mechanic" in the sense ******* tend to like to abuse.

You're linking me a page I basically created on the OBD? It's basically word for word me dude :lmao

Sure, why not?

But that's half the fun in this hobby :maybe

 

[Zeshinumi]

Ok, so if we accept there is inconsistency in fiction, then perhaps we should take what's consistent. They consistency travel places on vehicals, they consistently fight in a speed the viewer can see (which is comparable to how fast the enemies are), and there is no statment claiming they moved too fast to see. Is there any artistic rendition in any FF7 game that would deptict any kind of FTL fighting speed or movement speed beyond a single cutscene of buhamut furry, who in his fight didnt even bother to dodge you, or can we claim that as an inconsistency because its the only thing speed wise the was an outlier?

 

[The_Everlasting]

1. It could be superior combat speed.

2. Cinematic timing. Humans wouldn't be able to see Supersonic characters moving in front of their faces.

3. And that means something why? Again, fiction is not obligated to do this.

4. I don't see why something needs to be "artistically rendered" to make it true. It's not the case with DBZ, Saint Seiya or any other fiction with FTL speed.

 

[Zeshinumi]

1. Sure, but doesnt mean FTL combat speed

2. except you can talk to them, and theres been scenes with bystandards, but never do they go out of their way to point out the characters are speedsters in any sence

3.what are you refering to?

4.In dbz, they spesificly point out several times the characters are fighting faster then the eye can see. They then have an attack they point out is faster then light. Then later the characters move even faster then these attacks, very clearly indicating FTL speed. I havn't seen enough of Saint Seiya to comment, but in bleach ichigo's bankai is pointed out for its speed and has an after image effect, in one piece luffy's 2nd gear has the suddenly appear effect coupled with several times commenting about its speed coupled with a sound (every time btw), flash is self explanitory but would have a blur effect for his speed, sonic gets a blur effect when he goes super speed, I'm mean if the artist wants to note their character is super fast, they show it, otherwise its poor dipiction. Can you come up with at least one line that says they move faster then can so, or comments on their speed in any way? The only artistic render I can think of is Loz. BF had some for his cutscene, but show no signs of using anything considered fast in the actual combat

 

[Zeshinumi]

sorry, i should clerify, I'm not trying to say the character's are slow, I'm trying to say they're features of speed are never accented, indicating their speed isn't a defining feature

 

[The_Everlasting]

1. Why?

2. "The viewer" is commonly believed to refer to the person watching the fiction in question. This also happens to be a common issue fiction doesn't generally regard, that characters faster than sound can talk to each other. Again, you treat it as if Square Enix needs to do this to prove characters are this fast.

3. For characters to say they're moving faster than they can see.

4. Stop saying "artistic renders", fiction is not obligated to show attacks in a particular way.

 

[Zeshinumi]

its quite simple, they are fictional characters, if a feat is not protrayed or at least accented it doesn't exist. If a feat is not consistently portrayed, then using an inconsistent feature which is loose at best to define a prodominent feature is in itself also inconsistent and poor defence to define a trait. If zack flew to the planet then that would be somthing different entirly, but you're saying all the characters are FTL because zack could hit a boss never portrayed to dodge who could fly FTL in a cutscene that was over exagerated. I don't know how much more I can point out how weak that feat is, if anything its a feat for BF and BF alone.

So the two sides here are: 1. accept that somehow that one fight proves zack's attacks/movment are FTL and ignore this feat is never portrayed anywhere else in any game or material and some how never comes in in diolog, artisitic depictions, lore, or literally anything and just pretend they are FTL anyways; or 2. accept the much simpler explination that the artists dont depict them as FTL characters because they arn't, and in this fight BF simply doesnt bother to dodge or for what ever reason cant/wont fly around as he did in space during the fight.

 

[SomebodyData]

how do you depict a character as FTL? isnt that like sorta impossible without going to space?

 

[Zeshinumi]

suddenly there attacks like often depectied in various shonen jump cartoons, having a character openly express said speed, having the character dodge lazer beams and pointing it out, after image effects, or having the actual character run around the world multiple times. There's many ways to depeict speed, but FTL speed usualy has a bigger stress on the character passing light, time traveling from speed, or have somthing to depict it as FTL speed. Like Loz is deffently a speedster, but its difficult to desern him as supersonic, fast as lighting, or faster, but is still a speedster

 

[The_Everlasting]

I seriously don't get how you only say Loz is a speedster just because they artistically show him being fast when compared to other characters. This is especially annoying when Sephiroth does the EXACT SAME THING during his fight with Cloud.

Afterimages is a trait that can be applied to hypersonic characters. This isn't exclusive to FTL individuals.

You have no idea how much it's irking me that you're using artisitic design as one of your points. ART IS NOT EVIDENCE. You act as if Square is obligated to do this stuff to show how fast a character is. What reason would they have to draw a character as if they're moving fast? This is the case with a LOT of fictions, not just Final Fantasy.

And this could all be answered with the fact that THEY DON'T KNOW HOW POWERFUL THEY MADE THE CHARACTERS.

 

[Zeshinumi]

Because they made a distiction of what a speedster looks like with Loz, abd artisitcly depict being fast if you use haste. How else do you show speed? You could take a distance they traveled in a known time, but what evidence is there of that. BF's attack? The one that could be described as exaderated, the one I keep pointing out show's BF's speed but not Zacks, because he doesn't dodge? The One i keep pointing out his flyign away aniamtion is way faster then his attacks? Also, what line do we draw what we depict is a character's feats and what is artistic depection? It's their characters, so wouldn't what their feats be what is as close as we can figure the artist intented them to be? They are fictional characters, meaning they are subjected to the whims of interpretation, which means if you want them for comparision to other characters you should get as close to what the artist intended, not an extrapilation of what they clearly did not intend, otherwise it's now your character not theirs.

I could claim cloud could beat superman, and i would be right if only because i deemed it so in my head, but only to me. But I would think as a group, people would think this incorrect as based on what the artists depict their powers to be and what we as an audiance as a group accepted them to be deems that untrue. In this case, YOUR tifa, cloud, Loz, seperioth could best sonic in a race, could keep pace with the flash in his early days, could move faster then ichigo, and are speedsters. Everyone I asked outside of this website dissagrees because THEY ARNT SPEEDSTERS. Never are they described as speedsters, never are they depicted as speedsters, and the one feat you have to describe them as such could be easily described as BF doesnt dodge. Can you depecit strong evidence that would proves he dodges anything, or uses his FTL travel beyond that one cutscene?

I have to ask because this weill really gear if this conversation should even continue, how much factual information do you know about FF7 and how much do you enjoy the games and movie? It might not sound important but it is

 

[ThePerpetual]

@ChaosTheory I'm referring to things like stats. Things like games far more frequently have stats in them, using that is a game mechanic. I never said that inconsistencies aren't everywhere.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

@ChaosTheory I'm referring to things like stats. Things like games far more frequently have stats in them, using that is a game mechanic. I never said that inconsistencies aren't everywhere.

My bad, read "stat-wise" as referring to destruction/speed/etc and not numbers

Also, tangent?

Why is this still going? ******'s shouting into the wind. His standards don't appear to mesh with this wiki's. It's an even bigger waste of time on their part than this hobby already is :hmm

 

[Zeshinumi]

@ChaosTheory because I havn't been the only ****** who dissagreed with the Buhamut Fury speed scaleing? Also I thought disputing the theory of how strong each character is is the whole point?

 

[ThePerpetual]

Beats me. Insistent on trying to change the wiki's standards single-handedly? Don't much see the point, I mean, I'm fairly certain multiple admins have turned him down at this point, if I'm following this correctly, seems like a rather big roadblock to me.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Welcome to vs debating, where everything is subjective

I'm hardly denying you have a point, but whether it meshes with communal standards is what determines if its heard

You're meshing about as well as oil with water as far as I can tell, so, maybe I'm just projecting, but I'd just shrug and move on in your case

 

[Zeshinumi]

@theperpetual I first posted on the comments which was told to take to a forums, which i found this one and posted here. Admin in charge is who I was disputing with who eventualy said hes just going to ignore me. Then I asked how to dispute this on another admins page which i got start my own forum which I did, which we started the discussion again there, but it brought us back here .

@chaostheory problem is looking back at other comments I can't say I agree with you, others have said the speed scaling for BF isn't good. The one I wasnt meshing with was everlasting..i assume he doesnt count as everyone. In fact when I was looking up the comments before, many said what I said and Everlasting disputed them with the same stuff hes saying to me.

I'm gonna poll to my twitter to see if this opinion of Tifa being FTL is a group consenses, though twitter polls never been successful for me >.< I'll post the result of it tomarrow, not that it will really prove anything.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Nah, I'm basing my conclusions on their profiles and the fact that a good majority of them follow the format and evaluation of my normal arena, the Outskirts Battledome

Kind of a given when they reappropriated a decent chunk of ours when our wiki died due to some stupid bullshit or another (not that I really mind. We're kind of lazy and its laughable to believe we're not going to lose interest before we reupload our old archive anyway :maybe)

Barring edits to a few thousand pages in some 180 degree fashion? Your general views are kind of inconsistent with their current presentation here

 

[Zeshinumi]

I am new here so I am still getting the feel of how things go, hence why i jumped around trying to figure how to dispute this. The main thing im trying to present was just that the FF7 arnt depicted as FTL, and the BF speed scale is poor evidence, care to explain what in my views are inconsistent?

Anyways, I've been wanting to get more into multiverse theory disccsions for a podcast, and I saw this website as somthing that fallows a formula that inital I thought looks cool. But I don't see how it can be considered credible when there are characters who are poorly depicted, and when disputed by many comments just eventualy ignore them. The character's with evidence listed on their page supporting them seems legit but that's about it. If what you say is true perhaps i should look elsewhere research done on these characters.

 

[ThePerpetual]

I'm hardly ignoring you, simply pointing out the opposition you face.

Perhaps you can restate your argument, a bit more concisely? I can go from there.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

So long as you're this critical of all series?

Feel free to continue

If you find yourself playing the hypocrite in the future or past though?

I'd just drop it, for hypocrisy is this hobby's worst sin. Its not objective in the first place, so consistency is king.

Just keep that in mind and have fun with this pointless bullshit :maybe

 

[Zeshinumi]

was talking about the everlasting not you thePerpetual XD

 

[Zeshinumi]

@chaos I'm generally this critical when it comes to this kind of comparision, you shoulda seen the obsession I had with the superman/goku fight leading up to screw attacks 2nd post. It's a hobby i already ilduge in and have on youtube, but only just discovered this website. I enjoy trying to find the merging line between worlds and loved the scaling system this site has, I just disagreed with this page so much because of the lack of evidence it holds on its front page. It proclaimed speed FTL+ with the only evidence "she kept up with Loz" which...to me...I recalled her losing that fight when he actually picked up his speed. That's what set me off on this XD

 

[ThePerpetual]

"If you find yourself playing the hypocrite in the future or past though?

I'd just drop it, for hypocrisy is this hobby's worst sin. Its not objective in the first place, so consistency is king."

Thank you.

 

[Zeshinumi]

that is what choas said...ok? Are you guys quoting somthing?

 

[ThePerpetual]

No, just rather happy that the point was made.

 

[Zeshinumi]

I will say, this whole time I was having fun...dunno about if everlasting would say the same

 

[SomebodyData]

lolz