LOL Dark Star / Cosmic Court Downgrade

[Antvasima]

Monarch can ask some other staff members to help out here if he wishes.

 

[00potato]

I will not even try. Last time I tried I ended up unable to really help because my lack of knowledge on the verse, and I still don't understand why magical girl Zoe is equal to her OG self when it was agreed on that characters can be weaker despite their power set in-game being the same.

I'll just sit back and watch this.

I do agree that skins shouldn't scale at least. They don't really interact unless TFT is enough to count.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Furthermore, in the same evidence you use to argue against what i said. It is said that Thresh will become one with the Black Star in the end, this is not just a matter of having a higher "rating". He's putting together a gun to become one with it, when that gun transcend every duality of the multiverse. Only to him remain in this absence of everything.

That's not at all what that skin says.

Yeah he becomes one with it, because he gets absorbed by it and erased along with the rest of the universe. The very development quotes you put forward state that thresh wants to destroy everything so he can die as well. That's what "leaping into the singularity" means, that's what becoming one with the end of the universe means. He wants to die. He isn't "putting together a gun to become one with it", he's feeding everything to the Dark Star, and when he's done, he'll feed himself to it too.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

So in the last hour i spent my time to rewatch and reread about the dark stars, and read the new skins story and interactions.
In the new Lux's Lore, the points of time-frame of the dark star that @Monarch Laciel pointed out is more blatant than before. If you read the lore, you i'll see that Ashe claims that the Dark Star has been growing since a long time, and the cosmic court watched that.

What is your point here? Just because they've been watching the Dark Star for a while doesn't mean they are immeasurable. A non-immeasurable can watch something with immeasurable speed unless it's actually moving at that speed, which the Dark Star isn't doing, because most of the time it just slowly drifts through the universe. Nor does it mean the Dark Star is immeasurable. Even if the Dark Star can exist outside reality, there was literally a thread on how being outside space-time or in a void without time or whatever does not grant infinite or immeasurable speed unless the author explicitly points out that it does.

After seeing the history and interactions of Jhin, Lux, and Kayn, the question about the Dark Star being just a weapon is even more blatant. These three beings have only a single discuss: Steal the Dark Star from Thresh [1], and Become the new Master of the Dark Star. Which means that the Dark Star is just a tool. as i had said before.

No, it means they all *think* it is a tool. They're all deluded if they believe they can control it. Lore developers literally state it is the most powerful entity in the multiverse. And even if they might eventually manage to control it, they don't now, so they in no way scale to it.

The main question here is that these three act every time in tone of disrespect against Thresh, when they try to steal the Dark Star from Thresh to use that weapon. Besides, of course that Kayn, in some point of the history is an loyal Thresh's servant.

Yeah they try to steal it, they want to be its herald instead, they want to take his place.

And the Dark Star when is solo without Thresh, she become complete useless to the point that she can be sealed in a fixed point of space, according to Lux.

That doesn't mean Thresh is equal to the Dark Star? Nothing in that at all says "without thresh it becomes useless". That's 100% your headcanon. Also, Lux is talking about what she plans to do, not what she has done. We don't know if she's even capable of doing that. The cosmic court don't even know the true nature of the Dark Star, or else they'd have been a little more worried when the most powerful entity in the league multiverse that erases everything it touches entered their universe and started spitting out corruptants, instead of just thinking of it as some "overzealous hastener of entropy".

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Jhin is refering the universe;

Those quotes refer to the universe, but why should the "everything's gone" one when he just as often speaks of destroying stars and galaxies? Where is it said?? What? How have you missed all the lore that says it is his god, he is its herald. That says all the corruptants were born from it. It is not just a tool, how is this even in question?

One of the few remaining records from the Lol boards has a lore writer state that the Dark Star is the most powerful entity in the multiverse. It is not "just" a black hole, it is Thresh's creator, it is the thing that spat him out to begin with. Same with all the other corruptants.

Thresh's story remained similar, not the same. All lore that came after the basic development has made it clear that the Dark Star > Thresh and the corruptants.

 

[Alonik]

What is your point here? Just because they've been watching the Dark Star for a while doesn't mean they are immeasurable. A non-immeasurable can watch something with immeasurable speed unless it's actually moving at that speed, which the Dark Star isn't doing, because most of the time it just slowly drifts through the universe. Nor does it mean the Dark Star is immeasurable. Even if the Dark Star can exist outside reality, there was literally a thread on how being outside space-time or in a void without time or whatever does not grant infinite or immeasurable speed unless the author explicitly points out that it does.

I never argued this bruh, i was supporting your argue about the time-frame of the destruction of the multiverse. But now i see what is wrong, i linked the wrong scan in my coment, the scan that i was talking about, is that:


Sorry, my mistake.

No, it means they all *think* it is a tool. They're all deluded if they believe they can control it. Lore developers literally state it is the most powerful entity in the multiverse. And even if they might eventually manage to control it, they don't now, so they in no way scale to it.

Headcanon of your part, because is literally said that is a tool, that someone use to put his destruction inside. And this is in one of the scans i had send.

Yeah they try to steal it, they want to be its herald instead, they want to take his place.
Yeah, they want to steal thresh weapon.

That doesn't mean Thresh is equal to the Dark Star? Nothing in that at all says "without thresh it becomes useless". That's 100% your headcanon. Also, Lux is talking about what she plans to do, not what she has done. We don't know if she's even capable of doing that. The cosmic court don't even know the true nature of the Dark Star, or else they'd have been a little more worried when the most powerful entity in the league multiverse that erases everything it touches entered their universe and started spitting out corruptants, instead of just thinking of it as some "overzealous hastener of entropy".
You're making a huge headcanon here. Appealing to the fame of the entity outside the universe lore. And making the biggest mistake of disregarding the lore.

First, the Dark Star never entered the reality of the Cosmic Court, according to Lux the Dark Star always been there and she watched this. However in a point of the story of the Dark Star, Thresh appeared as the Harbinger and started to destroy everything to fed the dark star, and since then the Dark Star have been grows in strength.


They acknowledge the existence of the Dark Star in past eons.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

You're making a huge headcanon here. Appealing to the fame of the entity outside the universe lore. And making the biggest mistake of disregarding the lore.

... you're trying to argue that its a weapon based on the original development concept back when Thresh was the only dark star skin, while ignoring all the bits of lore that have been added and expanded on since which indicate it is in no way a weapon, its a living sentient creature that wants to eat everything and creates corruptants to feed it. As well as the word of god that straight up tells us Dark Star > corruptants. Who's the one making headcanon?

Lux wanting to be its master is her drunk on her own power. She's not going to be its master, she's delusional. It corrupted her, she just thinks she can control it. Rhaast just wants to be the herald, nothing in his quote implies he would use it like a tool, he just wants to be its herald. Jhin calls the Dark Star a muse, not a tool. A muse is something that provides inspiration for an artist, not a tool.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe the black hole Thresh carries around is the Dark Star, right?

 

[Alonik]

Those quotes refer to the universe, but why should the "everything's gone" one when he just as often speaks of destroying stars and galaxies? Where is it said?? What? How have you missed all the lore that says it is his god, he is its herald. That says all the corruptants were born from it. It is not just a tool, how is this even in question?

In the three scans that i had sent Jhin was spoken of destroying some universe. He was not talking about of destroying stars or galaxies.

1. The curtain rises on a young and vibrant universe. An audience... Worthy of my talent.
2. I must erase everything. The audience demands it.

Where is he spoken of destroying stars and galaxies here? He says that a universe was born, and that this universe is an audience. Then he says he has to delete everything, because the audience demands it. This is blatantly universe level.

And I did not forget the lore. None of the corruptants have born from the dark star, they'll is good guys of the multiverse who was corrupted by the Dark Star. And Thresh is not a corruptant, he is a Harbinger.

One of the few remaining records from the Lol boards has a lore writer state that the Dark Star is the most powerful entity in the multiverse. It is not "just" a black hole, it is Thresh's creator, it is the thing that spat him out to begin with. Same with all the other corruptants.

Yeah, i know that, Dark Star is one of the most powerful. "One of the most" not the "most powerful". And the specific reason of the Dark Star being so powerful is because of Thresh. How you forget the statement that SINCE the Harbinger's (Thresh) appearence, the Dark Star have grows in strength?

Thresh's story remained similar, not the same. All lore that came after the basic development has made it clear that the Dark Star > Thresh and the corruptants.

I meant that remains the same, not similar. In the lore is said something out of your point. The Dark Star only have growed in strength because of thresh, without thresh this black hole had not threatment in the multiverse. In none Lore is said that. Only if misunderstand a summary because not had further context of the lore and the interactions.

 

[PandarianOda]

Monarch makes the most sense here to me

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So far im agreeing with Alonik here

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

In the three scans that i had sent Jhin was spoken of destroying some universe. He was not talking about of destroying stars or galaxies.

1. The curtain rises on a young and vibrant universe. An audience... Worthy of my talent.
2. I must erase everything. The audience demands it.

Where is he spoken of destroying stars and galaxies here? He says that a universe was born, and that this universe is an audience. Then he says he has to delete everything, because the audience demands it. This is blatantly universe level.

Where there? Nowhere, because you've selected specific quotes. Let me remind you of the others.

"The stars are my eyes, and one by one, I must blind them."

"A star is born."

"All the stars in the sky."

"Killing galaxies Zed? How plainly derivative, allow me to make you part of something greater."

"We are alone now, the stars and I."

"What could you become? A neutron star? A red giant? What does Rakan mean? Tell me."

"I am the black tongue, a God without his throne, my mouth opens, and the stars pour in"

Oh, and here's something else interesting.

"Jhin was an interstellar entity, consumed by the Dark Star and given new purpose. Now his ageless mind is infected by visions of omnipotence, and consumed by an insatiable hunger. He scours entire regions of space seemingly on a whim, using the remnants to create bizarre, silent objets d'art."

He thinks he's omnipotent, but its just an infected vision given to him by the Dark Star, not reality. That sure places some skepticism on all his claims of "a flick of the wrist and everything's gone", if "everything" even refers to all of existence in the first place.

Yeah, i know that, Dark Star is one of the most powerful. "One of the most" not the "most powerful". And the specific reason of the Dark Star being so powerful is because of Thresh. How you forget the statement that SINCE the Harbinger's (Thresh) appearence, the Dark Star have grows in strength?

It grows in strength because he is feeding it stars and planets. Not because he is equal to it in power.

I meant that remains the same, not similar. In the lore is said something out of your point. The Dark Star only have growed in strength because of thresh, without thresh this black hole had not threatment in the multiverse. In none Lore is said that. Only if misunderstand a summary because not had further context of the lore and the interactions.

As I said, the Dark Star is growing in power because he is feeding it. Not because he makes up a significant portion of its power or something.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

So far im agreeing with Alonik here

Interesting, considering he's gotten some basic parts of the lore wrong. Are you agreeing with him when he says the Dark Star doesn't create corruptants?

 

[Alonik]

Where there? Nowhere, because you've selected specific quotes. Let me remind you of the others.

"The stars are my eyes, and one by one, I must blind them."

"A star is born."

"All the stars in the sky."

"Killing galaxies Zed? How plainly derivative, allow me to make you part of something greater."

"We are alone now, the stars and I."

"What could you become? A neutron star? A red giant? What does Rakan mean? Tell me."

"I am the black tongue, a God without his throne, my mouth opens, and the stars pour in"

I agreed that most Dark Stars should downgrade to less tiers.

"Jhin was an interstellar entity, consumed by the Dark Star and given new purpose. Now his ageless mind is infected by visions of omnipotence, and consumed by an insatiable hunger. He scours entire regions of space seemingly on a whim, using the remnants to create bizarre, silent objets d'art."

He thinks he's omnipotent, but its just an infected vision given to him by the Dark Star, not reality. That sure places some skepticism on all his claims of "a flick of the wrist and everything's gone", if "everything" even refers to all of existence in the first place.

Wait, jhin being a interstellar entity who use remnants to create bizarre, and silent objets d'art, at no time limit him to not destroy a universe. I showed two interactions of him erasing a universe.

And you're making a big misinterpretation of the story. Jhin doesn't think he is omnipotent. Look what is said "his ageless mind is infected by visions of omnipotence" Something is puting visions of omnipotence in his mind, not that he think he is omnipotent. Also, the visions have the specific interactions that is;

1. Oceans of formless time open before me and they whisper 'Jhin.' 'we are your true face.'

That last one even uses the word corruptant...
Oh and finally, here's the lore dev's words on the true Dark Star "A sentient singularity that mindlessly erases existence just by being there, while popping out matter devouring eldritch gods"

So yes. The Dark Star does in fact create the corruptants. And Thresh is one of them.

"good guys corrupted" only refers to the Dark Cosmics like Lux, Mordekaiser and Jhin. Not the corruptants.
Yeah, i know that, and what is the point of that? I know that the Dark Star turn good guys in corruptants. Also, Dark Star turn good guys in corruptants doesn't prove anything about Thresh being not a Harbinger, and yes a corruptant.

It grows in strength because he is feeding it stars and planets. Not because he is equal to it in power.
And yet grows only because Thresh is the guy who fed her, and without Thresh the Dark Star have no capabilities for fed alone. Just destroy matter from space time like any other black hole does.

As I said, the Dark Star is growing in power because he is feeding it. Not because he makes up a significant portion of its power or something.
Yeah, i know, and that is my point too. Thresh destroy something and pool it inside of the Black Hole, as you can see here, where Thresh Hook a civilization to inside of the Dark Star.


Dark Star Nothing Escapes Skins Teaser - League of Legends-0

 

[Alonik]

Interesting, considering he's gotten some basic parts of the lore wrong. Are you agreeing with him when he says the Dark Star doesn't create corruptants?

Yeah, i said that, but you don't got my point. In other comment you have mentionet that Dark Star created the corruptants from the "scratch".

My point is that the Black Star's characters other than Thresh, all of them is from the multiverse and have been corrupted, not created, as the name itself says "corruptants".

If you read any of the Lore's, you'll saw that every of the Dark Star is someone corrupted unlike Thresh, who is a Harbinger, not a corruptant.

 

[PandarianOda]

If you have visions of omnipotence put inside your head, infecting it even. Why would I trust you at your word if it is infected with thoughts that arent his own or rather make him believe he is greater?

In the same vein it sounds a lot like a mental illness in that having delusions of grandeur one would think they could do a lot more than they can. You argue he doesmt actually believe the visions but it seems like he does? All his quotes are how he is greater and the like despite the fact by the lore hes definetly not the strongest of them or the purest of them.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The Corruptants arent created from nothing, theyre molded from the raw emotions of the things that the Dark Star has erased from existence. For instance Karma was formed from an a pacifist star system so she literally just floats around 'enlightening' the universe passively by existing, Cho was a system racked by famine so he is driven solely by endless hunger, and Shaco was a region of space known for excessive celebration so he was reformed into an insane cosmic jester

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If you have visions of omnipotence put inside your head, infecting it even. Why would I trust you at your word if it is infected with thoughts that arent his own or rather make him believe he is greater?

Because he demonstrably has the feats to back up his claims

 

[PandarianOda]

You say 'demonstrably' but no one has posted anything that supports the claims of omnipotence or universal.

I have read this entire thread and the closest thing to such is his wrist quote which is vague, with the context of his visions and quotes is very much something that reads as hyperbole or a delusion of grandeur.

If there is something else beside said quote or the 'all the dark stars together ate the void' which is currently a contested feat I would like to see it.

I didnt spend hours at work reading this just to have some none real answer typed at me

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Not once is it stated that all the dark stars together ate the void. Thresh alone states that he ate the void.

 

[Alonik]

@PandarianOda

Jhin always be a narcissist, this is not a thing about the Dark Star puting illusions of the timeless void in his mind.

THE VIRTUOSO, JHIN:

Jhin is a meticulous criminal psychopath who believes murder is art. Once an Ionian prisoner, but freed by shadowy elements within Ionia's ruling council, the serial killer now works as their cabal's assassin. Using his gun as his paintbrush, Jhin creates works of artistic brutality, horrifying victims and onlookers. He gains a cruel pleasure from putting on his gruesome theater, making him the ideal choice to send the most powerful of messages: terror.

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/champions/jhin/


And even Jhin being a narcissist, he have feats who support, that is not a question of arrogancy.

 

[Alonik]

Just a point, it wasn't all the dark stars who consumed the void realm, at best, was Varus and Thresh, but Varus doesn't have a tier to consume the void realm, even with Thresh's help.

If you ask me why, the cronollogy of the skin release is the same cronollogy of the origin of the corruptants, Thresh is the harbinger, and the first guy he corrupt was Varus. In this time he and Varus in some point of the story consumed the void, after that, the others Dark Stars had born from Varus and Thresh spreading destruction in the multiverse.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Thresh constantly refers to himself in the third person, he is the one who consumed the Void

 

[PandarianOda]

He said 'we devoured the void' or whatever the quote was, and he wasnt referring to him, in a royal we way. Unless I missed other times hes used it. Most of his other quotes use I and not we. So it would seem out of character to suddenly use the royal we when he doesnt do it elsewhere.

I mean he has feats to support up to galaxy busting but definetly nothing universal except for a quote that reads more like he is letting the visions get to him and him and all the other dark stars devouring the void. Which doesnt really seem like all that great a feat to me to back up a universal rating.

Here it is "We have looked into the void and consumed it"

 

[Alonik]

@PandarianOda

Yeah, but we can go in the most reasonable way. When the feat happened, only Varus and Thresh existed as Dark Star. Varus doesn't have a tier to consume a realm. And thresh had a blatant claim about consuming realities.

So, who with Thresh had consumed the reality of the void? Since no one of the darkstar was there, besides Varus.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Honestly I haven't been that convinced by the evidence for anything beyond Tier 3 for the CC/DSs skinline. Only seems like the Dark Star is that strong.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Wait, jhin being a interstellar entity who use remnants to create bizarre, and silent objets d'art, at no time limit him to not destroy a universe. I showed two interactions of him erasing a universe.

You haven't shown any interactions like this, you've shown two vague quotes that reek of his visions of omnipotence.

And you're making a big misinterpretation of the story. Jhin doesn't think he is omnipotent. Look what is said "his ageless mind is infected by visions of omnipotence" Something is puting visions of omnipotence in his mind, not that he think he is omnipotent. Also, the visions have the specific interactions that is;

1. Oceans of formless time open before me and they whisper 'Jhin.' 'we are your true face.'

... "visions of omnipotence" literally means he thinks he's omnipotent. That's what the expression means.

Yeah, i know that, and what is the point of that? I know that the Dark Star turn good guys in corruptants. Also, Dark Star turn good guys in corruptants doesn't prove anything about Thresh being not a Harbinger, and yes a corruptant.

You've focused on one single thing I said as if it was my entire point, while ignoring all the evidence about how Dark Star Thresh is still a corruptant, and all corruptants were created by the Dark Star out of things it has erased.

And yet grows only because Thresh is the guy who fed her, and without Thresh the Dark Star have no capabilities for fed alone. Just destroy matter from space time like any other black hole does.

This is completely your head canon. Without Thresh, the Dark Star would still feed on everything around it. Nothing anywhere says that the Dark Star is only powerful because if Thresh is the one feeding it it goes stronger.

Yeah, i know, and that is my point too. Thresh destroy something and pool it inside of the Black Hole, as you can see here, where Thresh Hook a civilization to inside of the Dark Star.

This has zero relevance. It just shows him feeding the Dark Star, with absolutely nothing saying that the Dark Star is incapable of feeding on its own.

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

@PandarianOda

Yeah, but we can go in the most reasonable way. When the feat happened, only Varus and Thresh existed as Dark Star. Varus doesn't have a tier to consume a realm. And thresh had a blatant claim about consuming realities.

So, who with Thresh had consumed the reality of the void? Since no one of the darkstar was there, besides Varus.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Cosmic Kassadin, Yi, Xayah and Rakan were released way before Cosmic Queen Ashe, but that doesn't mean she wasn't their queen in the lore back when her Cosmic skin was not released. The same applies to the Dark Star skin line. Dark Star Jhin and Lux (and all the others) existed in the lore even when the only released Dark Star skins were Thresh and Varus.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

^

Just because their skins were released in that order IRL doesn't mean they came into being in that order in League.

 

[Alonik]

You haven't shown any interactions like this, you've shown two vague quotes that reek of his visions of omnipotence.

Prove that, claim that everything Jhin say is a vision of omnipotence cuz he is a narcissist is headcanon.

... "visions of omnipotence" literally means he thinks he's omnipotent. That's what the expression means.
But he doesn't think he is omnipotent, he knows that something is making visions about omnipotence in his mind. Thinking about omnipotence is something very in other road than think you're omnipotent.

As said before, Jhin is a narcissist. You should know how to separate narcissism that the character always had, from the infections, which is literally just some mentions about the void.

You've focused on one single thing I said as if it was my entire point, while ignoring all the evidence about how Dark Star Thresh is still a corruptant, and all corruptants were created by the Dark Star out of things it has erased.
I did not ignore your point, I showed that Thresh is not a corrupt, but a Harbinger. Thresh was never erased by the Dark Star, he just appeared as Harbinger, unlike the others, who was caught by the Dark Star.

This is completely your head canon. Without Thresh, the Dark Star would still feed on everything around it. Nothing anywhere says that the Dark Star is only powerful because if Thresh is the one feeding it it goes stronger.
Your argue against the word of Ashe, i just copied and pasted what she said.

I will just copy and past here again what is said about Thresh and the Dark Star.

SINCE the Harbinger's appearence, the Dark Star have grows in strength

And when i best Thresh and seal the Dark Star into a fixed point in space, away from the brilliance of the creation

Golden eggs: For example, when the Sinister Star returns to base, he throws his hook through a portal and pulls himself towards the unknown entity it connects with. But, instead of using an existing portal, he transforms his black hole into a private one, demonstrating his complete command of the universe.

This has zero relevance. It just shows him feeding the Dark Star, with absolutely nothing saying that the Dark Star is incapable of feeding on its own.


Now connect with the point that the Dark Star is only so big because Thresh feeds it with his own feats, not hers.

 

[Alonik]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Cosmic Kassadin, Yi, Xayah and Rakan were released way before Cosmic Queen Ashe, but that doesn't mean she wasn't their queen in the lore back when her Cosmic skin was not released. The same applies to the Dark Star skin line. Dark Star Jhin and Lux (and all the others) existed in the lore even when the only released Dark Star skins were Thresh and Varus.

Unlike the Dark Stars, the cosmic skins got retconed by several means. If you want, just look at relation of Cosmic Reaver Kassadin released in the universe, and his relation today in universe.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151023055538/http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/skin-release/galaxies-crumble-cosmic-reaver-kassadi

In the first appearance he was the only cosmic, but then more and more people appear to give retcons in this relationship of "only cosmic"

 

[Alonik]

I cannot contribute to this today anymore. Today i have clash with my team and we are in training rn.

However i think this will be of great help for everyone, i was able to get a boards post on WMB.

• Dark Star: Singularity - coming soon to PBE!

The comment about dark star in the post from Riven and Darius, i couldn't get that, sorry.

Tomorrow i'll be back.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

... Jhin having visions of omnipotence is literally the explanation for why his Dark Cosmic self is so narcisistic. He thinks he's omnipotent.

The Dark Stars are the Corruptants. Thresh, like every other Dark Star, is referred to as a corruptant when Jhin first encounters them.

I'm not arguing against what Ashe is saying, I'm arguing against your fallacious interpretation of what she's saying

You do realise that quote about him transforming his black hole into a private one literally says he is throwing his hook through to connect with the entity on the other side right? You seem to really enjoy using the developing concept as an argument, so I'll just point out that quote makes it very clear that the black hole Thresh carries around with him isn't the Dark Star, it's just a normal black hole and the Dark Star is the unknown entity on the other side of the portal it creates.

Let me just bring up some other quotes to firmly establish the relationship between Thresh and the Dark Star

"Thresh. You are nothing more than a slave to the Dark Star." ~ Cosmic Lux

"You have ended galaxies, corruptant. I will end you." ~ Cosmic Lux encountering any Dark Star, including Thresh.

"Bend to my will, corruptant." ~ Dark Cosmic Lux encountering any Dark Star including Thresh.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise the arguments here please?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Ant

I argue that:

- The Dark Stars and Cosmic Court, when we are given information about their feats more detailed than just "I did this", consistently show their methods of destroying and creating universes to be done over time, through creating or destroying individual planets, stars, solar systems, and galaxies as they move through the universe, and in the case of the Dark Stars, feeding matter and souls to the Dark Star God until it grows in power enough to swallow up the universe. This methodology is shown in Thresh's lore where it states "Thresh vows to feed the whole of existence to his "god" until all matter, time, and thought are erased", Kha'Zix's lore where it states "The hunger of the abyss, Kha'Zix is an alien horror whose ceaseless appetite feeds the Dark Star.", the recent short story "Where we build, he guides the Dark Star to consume", and the Dark Star Singularity game mode where the aim is to "hook and flay your enemies into the Dark Star and feed it souls, helping Thresh cause the Singularity and end the universe".

- The one statement ("A flick of the wrist and everything's gone") that, if its use of the word "everything" is taken to the absolute extreme, indicates a timeframe on this universal destruction, is spoken by Jhin who is explicitly stated to be "infected with visions of omnipotence", has difficulty distinguishing his own thoughts from the ones the Dark Star God is feeding to him ("When the Dark Star whispers to you Jhin, does it speak in your own voice?") and has never actually done anything that lives up to his boasts, so his words hyping up his own power should be taken with a grain of salt.

- If the Dark Stars really were capable of instantly destroying the universe, it is extremely out of character for the majority of them to instead destroy it bit by bit. Dark Star Thresh for example wants to erase everything and be erased with it, with the experience being likened to "rapture" to him. Beings like Dark Star Malphite, Dark Cosmic Mordekaiser, Dark Star Cho'Gath, Dark Star Karma - all of them want to completely destroy the universe for one twisted reason or another (mindless destruction, unmaking everything he's built, eating everything and bringing the "order" of emptiness to the universe respectively), and have no reason to do it slowly if they were capable of doing it instantly.

- Given the above, it is logical to assume that the Dark Stars are not capable of snapping the universe out of existence. Therefore, the statement that Thresh has over destroying a 2-A realm, specifically "We have looked into the Void, and consumed it", would either be an outlier against his more consistent tier 4 ~ 3 showings, or done like their usual methods of universal destruction via feeding the Dark Star God various celestial bodies until it has the power do destroy the universe itself.

- The current extrapolation of the Dark Stars and Cosmic Court being able to move in "timeless" places giving them infinite/immeasurable speed defines "timeless" using vs battle slang (place with no flow/concept of time) instead of the actual dictionary definition (eternal, lasting forever), and all other statements used to back this speed rating up are not indicative of immeasurable speed unless taken to the extreme.

Weekly argues that:

- The Dark Stars' statements of universal destruction that have no method or timeframe given should all be taken at face value instead of considering how their lore portrays their methods.

- If the above is done, these characters would therefore have Low 2-C feats, the statement of them destroying the Void, a 2-A realm, is not an outlier and should be taken at face value rather than considering how this is still an infinite jump in power better attributed to their usual methods of feeding the Dark Star.

- All the Dark Stars and Cosmic Court should scale to each other

- The statements of the void and celestial realm being "timeless" should be assumed to use vs battles slang and mean "lack a flow of time" instead of the dictionary definition, and therefore as the Dark Stars can presumably move there, they would have immeasurable / infinite in speed. This is despite the recent thread that established moving in voids or places with no flow of time needs a statement from the author explicitly stating that to move there would need such speeds, as well as despite the numerous anti-feats the Dark Stars and Cosmic Court have.

Alonik argues that

- The Dark Star God is actually just a tool for Thresh and is completely without power without him. This comes from using outdated and since contradicted lore from the original developer ideas about what Dark Star Thresh would be, as well as a giant leap in logic from the recent short story which states "Since the Harbinger's appearance the Dark Star grows in strength" and Alonik interprets to mean "without Thresh the Dark Star God would have no power at all". Obviously I disagree with this

- Not all the Dark Stars and Cosmic Court would scale to each other - he believes Thresh and Jhin should scale above the rest of them. In Thresh's case, he argues this is due to not being a corruptant, for being the Dark Star's herald / harbinger, and because he believes Thresh destroyed the entire void himself. This is contrary to in-game interactions where characters from the Cosmic Court will call Dark Star Thresh a corruptant, and how every other character with the cosmetic skin line "Dark Star" is a corruptant, and how Thresh's shown methods are to simply feed the Dark Star until it gets powerful enough to cause a singularity that sucks in the rest of the universe. In Jhin's case, he argues this due to Jhin's statements of "a flick of the wrist and everything's gone", which as I mentioned, is most likely Jhin's "visions of omnipotence" getting to him. Obviously I disagree with this.

- Neither the Cosmic Court or the Dark Stars are infinite/immeasurable, because they have several statements of taking time to do things, doing them "over the eons" or "watched for too long". I agree with this, as there are several other pieces of evidence indicating they take time to do things.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Taking time to do things is not a means to discredit infinite or immeasurable speed.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Not having any legitimate infinite or immeasurable feats and taking time to do things certainly is though.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

They have multiple legitimate infinite and immeasurable feats. Consuming a realm of infinite size in a finite amount of time is an infinite speed feat. And before you give me that shit about the void being an outlier the void is no longer 5-D and the void itself is not 2-A so dont even try to claim that its an outlier bcaus its not.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

"it's not an outlier because it's not"

> has put forward an entire paragraph of evidence on how it either must be or an outlier, or done by the Dark Star God in accordance with their usual methodology.

Are you even trying?

And I didn't even mention 5D. Even if the void is 2-A, that's still infinitely above their consistently shown feats.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The Void is not 2-A

Thresh himself stated he ate the void. Nothing implies this was done by the Dark Star itself

And yes, i am trying harder than anything i have ever done in my ntire life. This might mean nothing to you but it means everything to me.