Location Pages Change (Allowing for Hybrids)

[Antvasima]

Yes it is. I was just asking an open question.

 

[The_Impress]

Honestly the thing deadass ended up being, how the absolute hell do you define a location's stats? AP is easy enough, yeah, but then there's shit like durability, which becomes a really weird for non-cosmological structures, and would require us to have an elaborate set of rules to define that.

I'll still argue most location files aren't tierable beyond an AP unless we want to overcomplicate it, and honestly most hazards should just get weapons pages.

There were also very weird Vs. Debating implications, too.

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly the thing deadass ended up being, how the absolute hell do you define a location's stats? AP is easy enough, yeah, but then there's shit like durability, which becomes a really weird for non-cosmological structures, and would require us to have an elaborate set of rules to define that.

If the whole thing fights and tanks hits, then that durability. If only parts of it fight, then those parts are tiered. Pretty easy.

I'll still argue most location files aren't tierable beyond an AP unless we want to overcomplicate it, and honestly most hazards should just get weapons pages.

Certainly not. Making dozens of profiles that consist of just one ability just for the sake of one profile, despite those locations not even being weapons in the first place, is absolutely ridicolous.

 

[Dalesean027]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a tally of who thinks what here so far please?

 

[Armorchompy]

Agrees with me - Me (duh), Ovens, Kieran, Hop (I think), Axxtentacle, Dalesean, DarkDragonMedeus (I think), Tllmbrg

Unclear (Disagrees I think) - Impress, AKM

Disagrees - Bambu, DT (I have addressed their concerns, which I don't think are really relevant to begin with, and they have not commented since)

Neutral - Crabwhale

 

[Antvasima]

Agrees with me - Me (duh), Ovens, Kieran, Hop (I think), Axxtentacle, Dalesean, DarkDragonMedeus (I think)

Unclear (Disagrees I think) - Impress, AKM

Disagrees - Bambu, DT (I have addressed their concerns, which I don't think are really relevant to begin with, and they have not commented since)

Neutral - Crabwhale

@Sir_Ovens @KieranH10 @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @DarkDragonMedeus @The_Impress @AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Mr._Bambu

Can you give updates regarding or clarify your views here please?

 

[Armorchompy]

Just to clear things out, I want to point out again that we allow hybrid profiles for basically everything else, such as weapons, teams, and so on, so Locations not having them would be the exception

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh also Tllmbrg brought up the idea of splitting the profile into two pages, one as a location and one as a character. I think the general stance (and my own) on that is that it's a bit too clunky, but I'd still prefer it to hybrids being completely forbidden in any way since it at least allows us to index all the relevant information.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yah I exist
Btw so we’re clear my idea is in case we don’t allow hybrid pages, which I support having

 

[Armorchompy]

I'll add you to the list then

 

[Antvasima]

Just to clear things out, I want to point out again that we allow hybrid profiles for basically everything else, such as weapons, teams, and so on, so Locations not having them would be the exception

We do? Please elaborate.

 

[Armorchompy]

"Characters from teams that all have identical or nigh-identical sets of Powers & Abilities can have a Team Profile without need of profiles for each of the members, as long as none of them have solo outings more or equally significant to their team appearances. In such a case, the profile should be formatted as a hybrid between a Team Profile and a Character Profile i.e. contain both fields for Character and Team Profile Format."

 

[AKM sama]

Can you give updates regarding or clarify your views here please?

In my personal opinion, if there's a character who also acts as a location, the character's stats and info is the most relevant information and many of the location properties can be included in the powers/abilities/techniques.

Some of the info can't be indexed like Armor mentioned (inhabitants, areas, environment, etc.) but if it's a character, I don't think that info is very relevant. It's just extra information which won't hurt even if they are left out (I see pure location profiles as extras as well which aren't really THAT important but just something fun for matches). For that reason I don't think it is REALLY important to have a hybrid standard but if others want it, I don't have a major problem either.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't think that's possible no. You could probably adapt some parts like Passive Effects or Size into P&A but stuff like "Notable Inhabitants/Areas/Objects" really can't be gracefully indexed at all, and secondary stuff like Location/Environment can't be either. I'm fairly confident that there's no way to put most of that stuff in a character file beyond making massive edits to the format, which is what I'm already suggesting except more chaotic and not regulated, aka worse.

Pretty sure it can be done, but whatever. At least this doesn't affect the regular standard formats.

Make one page for all the hybrid formats then.

I wonder if we have to update something in the vs-thread rules, though. Locations of this nature should probably not be used as locations in matches that are added and stuff.

 

[AKM sama]

Huh.

If such locations won't be used in matches then I'm against creating a hybrid for them. Those stats, if not used in matches, are completely useless and aren't worth making hybrids for.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Huh.

If such locations won't be used in matches then I'm against creating a hybrid for them. Those stats, if not used in matches, are completely useless and aren't worth making hybrids for.

What I mean is that you can use them in matches as characters, but not as locations. As in, you can't add a match that is "A fights B at sentient location C", as location C, being sentient, inevitably means that outside influence happens. However, you could add a match that is "A vs sentient location C".

 

[Armorchompy]

If such locations won't be used in matches then I'm against creating a hybrid for them. Those stats, if not used in matches, are completely useless and aren't worth making hybrids for.

Again, we don't profile things based on them being worthy of matchmaking. We literally ban certain profiles from getting matches at all, and there's plenty of profiles that are just 10-B people with abilities useless in combat.

To put it even more bluntly: "Can't have matches = not worthy of having a profile" is an incorrect reasoning that betrays the way this wiki works.

Make one page for all the hybrid formats then.

Are you asking me to find examples? That is a pretty tall request to make at the drop of a hat like that. I have an idea for a teams one and I have one for locations in OP already, I don't think I can do that so easily for weapons/civs/vehicles though.

EDIT: Maybe I can come up with one for weaponry too, but tbh I don't see how this is necessary

I wonder if we have to update something in the vs-thread rules, though. Locations of this nature should probably not be used as locations in matches that are added and stuff.

I'm not opposed to that, I guess, makes enough sense.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Armor i'm pretty sure he's just asking that a page is made for hybrid page standards in general, regarding every hybrid type. I could be wrong though.

 

[Armorchompy]

ah

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

 

[AKM sama]

To put it even more bluntly: "Can't have matches = not worthy of having a profile" is an incorrect reasoning that betrays the way this wiki works.

I was saying that specifically for location profiles. The main function for locations is for them to be used in matches to make them more fun. We don't index locations because we want to for indexing purposes.

If it's not going to be used in matches, I see no purpose for such a location profile. And every other piece of relevant information would already be covered in the character profile.

 

[Armorchompy]

The main function for locations is for them to be used in matches to make them more fun. We don't index locations because we want to for indexing purposes.

This is not the case. At least, it's not stated anywhere that that is their purpose, and it definitely should not be the default assumption.

If it's not going to be used in matches, I see no purpose for such a location profile.

Cool, I "see no purpose" for half the profiles in this wiki, doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

And every other piece of relevant information would already be covered in the character profile.

Why do you get to choose what relevant information "deserves" to be in a profile? And why should we purposefully exclude information about a character just because you "don't see the purpose" in it?

 

[AKM sama]

This is not the case. At least, it's not stated anywhere that that is their purpose, and it definitely should not be the default assumption.

We went in detail about it in the thread where creation of these profiles was accepted. This is to not get spammed by mundane locations that serve no purpose. If it's not written anywhere, we can probably rewrite the following rule:

• If a location grants an extreme advantage to one side or another, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the relevant versus thread. Otherwise, the match will not be listed on any profiles.

as

• Locations are primarily for use in versus threads. If a location grants an extreme advantage to one side or another, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the relevant versus thread. Otherwise, the match will not be listed on any profiles.

To answer your other questions, everything else that I have said is just my opinion.

 

[Armorchompy]

We went in detail about it in the thread where creation of these profiles was accepted. This is to not get spammed by mundane locations that serve no purpose.

Luckily hybrid profiles are the exact opposite of mundane. And "no mundane locations" is already a rule in the Location Profiles page, unrelated to this, not to mention that mundane locations can serve perfectly well as arenas anyway.

If it's not written anywhere, we can probably rewrite the following rule:

• If a location grants an extreme advantage to one side or another, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the relevant versus thread. Otherwise, the match will not be listed on any profiles.

as

• Locations are primarily for use in versus threads. If a location grants an extreme advantage to one side or another, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the relevant versus thread. Otherwise, the match will not be listed on any profiles.

I don't believe that should be the case, for reasons I've already made clear.

To answer your other questions, everything else that I have said is just my opinion.

No offense, but opinions should not be the deciding weight of this discussion.

 

[AKM sama]

I mean, we all are giving our opinions here. And I was asked to comment. And this is adhering to wiki policy, so I am required to give my opinion. The OP is also an opinion, that we should have a hybrid structure so that we can index characters who also act as locations. This isn't a debate with an objectively right answer. In your opinion, we should make hybrid profiles and in my opinion they are not needed. Both are fair.

Anyway, that's the extent of my take on this matter for now.

 

[Armorchompy]

That is true, but I think that mine is generally closer to the stance that this site usually takes on things, and we should try to avoid inconsistencies.

 

[Armorchompy]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally currently neutral regarding this issue.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Armor, I think based on the opinions given you can make a draft for the page to have it looked at? Unless i've misread something it seems like the general opinion of the people here is in favor.

 

[Antvasima]

That is probably a good idea.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, though I'd have more a set of guidelines since if we're to officially allow hybrid pages we should probably have rules for them instead of just drafts for combinations, since the amount of combinations is... a lot. We have a lot of types of profiles, so making a draft for every possible combination would be an insane amount of work.

 

[Abstractions]

Alright, though I'd have more a set of guidelines since if we're to officially allow hybrid pages we should probably have rules for them instead of just drafts for combinations, since the amount of combinations is... a lot.

Probably not the most important rule but in the instance a location is most likely to kill a combatant with no input of the opposition that match shouldn't really be added if the hybrid is used as a setting.

This would technically not be a case of granting advantages to either combatant as the threat is present on both sides and either could be subsequently killed by the location, so it'd cover that base.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm fine with that. It could make for some cool matches but it would be kind of a mess to handle.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright, though I'd have more a set of guidelines since if we're to officially allow hybrid pages we should probably have rules for them instead of just drafts for combinations, since the amount of combinations is... a lot. We have a lot of types of profiles, so making a draft for every possible combination would be an insane amount of work.

Can't we just add a few "(Optional)" sections to an otherwise copied draft for our Locations page?

 

[Armorchompy]

That can work, sure.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Feel free to write a draft for what you have in mind in one of your sandbox pages, after first copying the current contents of our Locations page to it, then.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, i'm feeling a little burnt out so i might do that a little bit in the future though

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Tell us here when you have done so.

 

[Armorchompy]

Here's my shot at it. Obviously open to changes.