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The first one.So it's the third bullet point, the last one, or a different one?
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Limited Plot Manipulation and 4th Wall Breaking for Ichibei Hyosube
- Thread starter AppleLord
- Start date
Vietthai96
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..............................what........................................just what
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- #43
It doesn’t fit any Text Manipulation explanation in the site. His powers are not just changing the name but the power, meaning, memory, knowledge, speed, stats, etc of the name he chooses to erase. That’s his shikai’s power. With his bankai’s power he can do the opposite and name/give powers, meaning, memories, knowledge, speed, stats, etc to anything limited to what his black ink has already touched.
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- #44
Someone asked the author if Ichibei did that. He said “That is correct.”
The plot of the story was heading to where Ichigo was destined to meet Yhwach in his inner world. His Quincy spirit. Learn that name and power set.
Ichibei in his own chilling dimension in the afterlife saw what was going to happened inside Ichigo’s inner world/mind and soul. And decided to block/erase that spirit’s name and powers.
That spirit was then force to use the name “Zangetsu” (instead of his own, Yhwach) to train Ichigo using the powers of a Shinigami from his second spirit that is his Hollow/Shinigami powers.
Ichigo had two spirits inside of him (Mother) Quincy and (father) Shinigami.
Quincy and Shinigami have been at war for millennia. Ichibei decided to bring protagonists to his side of the war. In the novels we learn that the Shinigami are not the so good guys of the story. This was even mentioned in the last arc of the manga through other characters opinions. But in the novels we got confirmation of it.
I don’t know how to make this explanation more simpler to be honest.
Vietthai96
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and..............................????. I don't see it matter here
So, every protagonist get Plot Manipulation now???. they always change the bad guy into the good guy no matter how illogical it may seem in real life............actually yes let give them Plot Manipulation, especially Saitama since it is the plot that always made him win
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- #46
That’s like telling a VSBW moderator that their rules don’t matter because you say so.
You are completely ignoring the important part of that entire thing. That has little to do with the power and just a justification for why he changed the plot.
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- #47
This
Ichibei with his Cosmic Awareness and Plot Manipulation changed the course of the story from the start.
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Either way, there isn't enough evidence to prove that Ichibe is manipulating the plot. That response from Kubo doesn't say that he's manipulating the plot or anything like that. There isn't solid evidence to say that Ichibe is manipulating the plot and much like what DontTalk said above, this could be put down as Artistic flair to note the use of Ichibe's power and nothing else. Without more or harder evidence or a direct statement that Ichibe is manipulating the plot itself, we should just stick with Conceptual manipulation.
Nullflowerblush
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Ichigo always possessed his Soul Reaper powers, his Quincy powers, and his Hollow powers. Ichibe gave none of this to him.
Ichigo was always going to join the Soul Reapers? Ignoring the fact that he had already been a substitute Soul Reaper for quite some time at that point, Sosuke was the one who set up the events leading to his indoctrination into the Soul Society.
Aizen yoinked out on dat fat Plot Manipulation?
We call this "A character makes an action".
Everything Ichigo does changes the course of events in the story dramatically.
Everything everybody does in a story changes the course of events.
Plot Manipulation is explicitly controlling the story in-universe through supernatural means. Ichibē would have Plot Manipulation if he used his ink to write in a book that encompassed the entirety of their reality and retroactively altered the course of events.
PrinceofPein
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Disagree FRA
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What about the 4th wall breaking?
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Ichibe has never shown awareness of the reader or the author. So no.
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- #58
Tell me what would had happened if Ichibei had not done what he did? The entire plot would have been different. He did something supernatural from the afterlife to a direct manga page to sealed/erase a protagonists power set for the majority of the story and influence his destiny. That never would had happened if Ichibei had not ink the manga page.
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But you don't need to show awareness of the reader or author no? Under the page it says the following. And we know that Ichibei did number 3 by rewriting the speech bubble. It would be under the literary technique of breaking the fourth wall no?
- talking to the audience
- affecting the "real world"
- rewriting speech bubbles
- acknowledging that they are part of a fictional world
- leaving the fictional work itself and entering the "real world"
Jibz
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Ayo bro, here's another one. Tell me what would have happened if Goku died of an heart attack. The entire plot would have been different. Thus Trunks should have plot manip via time travel.
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- #62
That’s not the same.
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He didn't actually do number three though. Kubo doesn't say he rewrites the speech bubble or anything like that. And Ichibe himself doesn't treat what he does as anything close to rewriting speech bubbles. What its treated as is since the name no longer can be said, the characters themselves only have blackness (what Ichibe controls) in place of the names they're attempting to speak. That isn't solid enough proof to say he's rewriting the speech bubbles. This isn't going to fly.
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- #65
Kubo makes Ichibei ink the buble against Yhwach where he forgets his swords name.
Japanese fans sees it, and decided to ask Kubo if he did the same with Yhwach in Ichigo's inner world.
Kubo says, "That is correct."
Context. Where do you think the question came in the first place? There's no other possibly that would have let to the person asking the author in the first place.
Nullflowerblush
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Again, that is a visual representation of the erasure of its name.
The name is blacked out to the audience because, in-universe, it does not exist anymore. Yhwach tried to speak it, and it was removed.
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- #67
The author would had show that characters speech bubble dialogue as “…” or something else. Is not the first time he has done so. Inking the page itself in black is different from those other times.
Nullflowerblush
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Show me these other times.
An ellipsis (...) typically represents an intentional pause or silence, when a character is purposely withholding from speaking. In these instances, though, the characters are physically incapable of invoking and understanding these names, as they have been erased from the universe by Ichibē.
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- #69
It’s also used when other characters interrupt someone talking, or in this instance. But since the bubble itself is inked when Ichibei uses his power and the manga page too on the other scan is different from what you’re trying to say.
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That is hardly enough proof to prove this instance as a feat for Plot Manipulation.
Nullflowerblush
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Yes, Conceptual Manipulation.
What exactly is the argument for Fourth Wall Breaking again?
What exactly is the argument for Fourth Wall Breaking again?
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- #73
The author agreed that Ichibei inked the speech bubble.
Vietthai96
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So let me guess, you guys specifically asked author this question to make a CRT???
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- #75
No. The author answers questions on his own private Klub Kubo only available for Japanese audiences and you have to pay a yearly subscription. You also get new art never before seeing and other stuff. I left you the link to some of the translated questions. The one you looking for is Q117.
Vietthai96
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Oke then, but even if we take author statement as literal, it is still just Text Manipulation
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The text also changed the story of bleach tho, also changing bubbles text is possible plot manipulation
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Guys, plz don’t argue this “it changed the course of the story” point. That’s not how it works. You may as well argue that Ichigo choosing to accept Rukia’s powers is plot manipulation since “it changed the course of the story”.
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/: is that the best counterargument you have
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It’s the only one needed. By your own logic, every character that makes a decision or does anything (which is all of them) have plot manip because they “affected how the story would go”. It’s completely ridiculous.
You’ll have much better luck arguing just the text being blacked out than this stupid “affected the story” stuff.
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