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Light speed Haku (Naruto)

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Bumping this thread since there seems to be quite a bit of confusion surrounding what was and was not accepted.

To begin with, myself and multiple staff members were under the impression that this would only apply to travel speed via reflecting in the mirrors, as argued in this thread, this doesn't appear to be the case and it apparently applies to combat speed as well.

I also have to question why this was even accepted so suddenly, the general consensus between staff members as far as I can see was rejecting this thread.
Apologies for taking your guys posts and using it, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, rather just show the apparent staff consensus regarding this thread.

The only staff member that appears to agree is Planck69, and it's questionable as to whether or not he agrees with lightspeed combat speed or just simply travel speed since he agreed early into the thread, so I've messaged him on his wall for more input.
 
So, in spite of Zoro vs Haku, the argument of does Haku’s combat in the mirror become light-speed has been brought up. So, I’ve gathered my evidence and points, and here’s my stance:

Before this even becomes an argument, I will say this outright:

THIS. SCALES. TO. NO. ONE. BUT. HAKU.

Haku’s current speed scaling is this:

“Speed of Light when traveling through ice mirrors (His Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystal technique allows him to reflect through ice mirrors at the speed of light, making it impossible for anyone to counter him. Managed to blitz Kakashi’s Raikiri twice)”

This is fine. However, I suggest it should be strictly changed from reflecting through his Ice Mirror(s), meaning two or higher. Here’s why:

Starting with the databook, it’s said his attacks cannot be dealt with due to his light-speed movements. This is highly consistent:

Here Haku creates one mirror. Then he knocks Sai down. Then he instantly returns to where he started.

That is light speed. Two mirror reflection.

What isn’t light-speed is him moving out of the mirrors, such as:

Haku PHYSICALLY leaving the mirror, and getting HIT by Might Guy and Rock Lee.

Haku PHYSICALLY leaving the mirror, which Sasuke intercepts.

Haku PHYSICALLY leaving the mirror, which KMC0 Naruto evades, and then grabs.

That is not light-speed. One mirror movement.

I hope that makes sense.
 
I'll get to your post later since I'm about to go to sleep, but my previous post wasn't arguing the legitimacy of Haku being able to fight at lightspeed, rather just show that this shouldn't have been accepted yet given the staff consensus on this thread.

Only KingTempest agreed with the proposed and applied justification, and he is apparently against lightspeed combat speed given his posts in the Zoro vs Haku thread, so it's pretty evident that the proposal isn't clear and shouldn't have even been accepted to begin with without more staff input.
 

Haku could barley keep up with sasuke outside his Mirrors and lost track of him... clear indicator that his reactions are not LS.

I can understand the travel speed argument (although I do not agree with it) but saying Haku can attack at LS or has LS reactions is ludicrous.
 
Purgy said:
Bumping this thread since there seems to be quite a bit of confusion surrounding what was and was not accepted.
Click to expand...

This was the proposed rating on the original post
Proposed rating
Speed of Light via ice mirrors (Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals uses the mirror's reflection to transport the user)
Click to expand...
DarkDragonMedeus disagreed with this because of your response, which you later changed.

LordGriffin1000 disagreed with it initially because he believed it was an outlier, but was ok with it being accepted as long as it didn't scale to anyone.

Planck69 agreed to it

Shadowbokunohero agreed to it

Damage3245 was fine with it as long as it was travel speed only

Speed of Light when travelling through ice mirrors (His Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystal technique allows him to reflect through ice mirrors at the speed of light, making it impossible for anyone to counter him. Managed to blitz Kakashi’s Raikiri twice)

Note: As Haku is a member of the Yuki Clan, his proper name should be Yuki Haku. Haku only travels at lightspeed when he is reflecting through his ice mirrors. However, this does not scale to anybody; it is established numerous times that it is impossible to keep up with Haku when he moves through the mirrors.
Click to expand...
This is what was applied, which KingTempest agreed to.

The changes were applied because a majority of the mods agreed to it being light speed travel speed. If you want a further clarification it can be added into the note, that this is only travel speed.
 
joshpiece said:
Haku could barley keep up with sasuke outside his Mirrors and lost track of him... clear indicator that his reactions are not LS.
Click to expand...
Except for the fact that your argument ignores all context. Haku himself says doesn't want to kill, and Zabuza tells Haku to get serious, or he will die. Haku is stated to be superior to Naruto and Sasuke, and stronger than Kakashi, by his own admission. This is reiterated by Zabuza, and Zabuza admits Haku surpasses him. All of your points have been debunked before, and Haku is consistently portrayed > Zabuza, Kakashi, Naruto, and Sasuke.
 
Ig people just needa stop using bs arguments in a vs battle then
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Except for the fact that your argument ignores all context. Haku himself says doesn't want to kill, and Zabuza tells Haku to get serious, or he will die. Haku is stated to be superior to Naruto and Sasuke, and stronger than Kakashi, by his own admission. This is reiterated by Zabuza, and Zabuza admits Haku surpasses him. All of your points have been debunked before, and Haku is consistently portrayed > Zabuza, Kakashi, Naruto, and Sasuke.
Click to expand...
debunk the manga.... Haku lost track of him IDC what you think. That’s not LS reactions.

Funny how you say my argument ignores context.... how bout the context of the retcon that only people of Raikage durability being able to survive going LS.... not to mention none of my points needed context. Haku admits he lost track of him and he even compliments his speed.
But aye ig I’m ignoring context huh
 
Haku has lightspeed reactions??? Does that mean he can react faster than KCM Naruto and Minato?
41ddf482-f7e4-4a5d-b66d-0ab6ac667d7a
 
joshpiece said:
debunk the manga.... Haku lost track of him IDC what you think. That’s not LS reactions.
Click to expand...
You're basically saying that Sasuke speed > Haku's speed > Zabuza's speed > Kakashi's speed > Naruto speed, that's your argument. I'm not sure how blatant you get when Kakashi, and Zabuza compliment his skill and prowess, with the Sensei of Team 7 saying he's inferior, and the guy who trained him all this time saying he's superior to him. Which is even stranger, since this same Zabuza blitzes Sasuke. So, I'd advise you relook at your argument and how much it actually messes up scaling, instead of mine, which is proven by the manga itself and numerous sources.


joshpiece said:
how bout the context of the retcon that only people of Raikage durability being able to survive going LS
Click to expand...
What does this have to do with Haku? This was already debunked, again.


joshpiece said:
not to mention none of my points needed context. Haku admits he lost track of him and he even compliments his speed.
But aye ig I’m ignoring context huh
Click to expand...
Yes, a suppressed Haku that didn't want to kill or fight Sasuke from the very beginning, as admitted by Zabuza, and Sasuke himself, who he supposedly made Haku "lose track of" and made him "compliment his speed". And yeah, you are ignoring context.
 
Kin201 said:
Haku has lightspeed reactions??? Does that mean he can react faster than KCM Naruto and Minato?
41ddf482-f7e4-4a5d-b66d-0ab6ac667d7a
Click to expand...
yes
Haku via reflecting off his mirrors has LS movement
its different from mabui transfer technique

Im still on the fence about his attacks being LS or LS reaction via mirror tho u may continue arguing :coffee:
 
Can't someone create a new tread if you want light speed attack and reaction speeds? The whole point of this CRT was for light speed travel speed only, which was accepted by a majority of the mods.

As of right now, Haku's profile does not have light speed attack and reaction speeds, only travel speed.
 
Couldn't sleep so here we are.
DuDE01010 said:
This was the proposed rating on the original post

The changes were applied because a majority of the mods agreed to it being light speed travel speed. If you want a further clarification it can be added into the note, that this is only travel speed.
Click to expand...
Thank you for clarifying, so it does only apply to travel speed like I intially believed.

In that case, this thread can either be closed or it could remain open so that Milly_Rocking_Bandit can argue for lightspeed reactions/combat.
 
Purgy said:
Couldn't sleep so here we are.

Thank you for clarifying, so it does only apply to travel speed like I intially believed.

In that case, this thread can either be closed or it could remain open so that Milly_Rocking_Bandit can argue for lightspeed reactions/combat.
Click to expand...
Yup. I can add a further clarification to his note stating Haku can only move at light speed and it doesn't apply to his combat and reaction speed if you want?
 
Just to clarify some things.

Sasuke and Haku's speeds​

Sasuke is faster than Haku.
With Shunshin, without Shunshin, Sasuke is faster than Haku.

There is a difference between "Not Going For The Kill" and "Holding Back". Not Going For The Kill is trying your best to harm an opponent without killing them, which is harder than killing them, shown with Deidara and Gaara.
Zabuza said earlier that "he can keep up with Haku's speed", Haku says "you won't be able to match my speed for long" referencing his Demonic Crystal Ice Mirrors for his (two attacks) that he was setting up , Haku was surprised and said "he's fast" after Sasuke outmaneuvered him, Sasuke said "you're fast, I'm faster", and Zabuza said (in the last scan) "What...? Haku is actually losing a battle of speed?!" while knowing his protégée's speed. If Haku was holding back, he would've said "why aren't you trying your hardest" or something of the sort.

Haku wouldn't have said "let me show you some real speed!" if he was naturally faster. He needed a cheap jutsu to showcase superiority in speed.

The Raikage's Durability Restrictions​

This is one of the few retcons of Part 1.

It specifically says that the speed is the issue, not the technique in general.
tumblr_p43pbleigs1urljpmo1_400.jpg
0562-006.png

Mangaka don't think highly of their characters durability, which is why they get cut by kunai which can't break through trees, so that explains why items can be transferred but not people.
But canonically, the speed is too much for them to handle.

Pre Timeskip, there are multiple sayings of Haku being able to move at the speed of light.

Some Kekkei Genkai…​

Up to volume 14, three Kekkei Genkai have been identified, each one with extraordinary abilities and impossible for normal people. Not only that, what was revealed of these powers thus far has only been the tip of the iceberg…

Byakugan

Allows for looking through objects and also the chakra pathway system, that is, the vital lines that move the chakra through all the body.

Sharingan

Grants the user great awareness, hypnosis and the ability to copy techniques.

?

Haku’s Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals technique lets him move from one mirror to the next at the speed of light.
Click to expand...

Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals (Makyou Hyoushou)​

  • Kekkei Genkai, Offensive, Close to mid range
  • User(s): Haku
The technique carved in cursed blood, inside the demonic mirrors is Haku’s phantom world!!

The abominable and tremendous ability, passed down only within Haku’s clan… The Kekkei Genkai: Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals is a technique wrapped up in many mysteries. Only one thing is clear: it is said that no method in existence can defeat this technique. In an instant, multiple mirrors of ice are created around the enemy, reflecting nothing but Haku. For Haku, it’s possible to move between the mirrors at the speed of light. It’s impossible to see attacks send out from this literal light speed movement. For the opponent, nothing is left but to wait in amazement.

Every single ice mirror shows Haku’s reflection!? Under these circumstances, one could say it’s impossible to see all of Haku’s attacks.

Naruto tries to attack the real body, but the moment after he starts his attack, Haku has already moved to another mirror.
Click to expand...

Haku can move at the speed of light.
Now, unless we want to use the retcon of dura required for lightspeed, go ahead.
But Haku can move at the speed of light, and the durability portion is a retcon of the dura required.
 
KingTempest said:
Just to clarify some things.

Sasuke and Haku's speeds​

Sasuke is faster than Haku.
With Shunshin, without Shunshin, Sasuke is faster than Haku.

There is a difference between "Not Going For The Kill" and "Holding Back". Not Going For The Kill is trying your best to harm an opponent without killing them, which is harder than killing them, shown with Deidara and Gaara.
Zabuza said earlier that "he can keep up with Haku's speed", Haku says "you won't be able to match my speed for long" referencing his Demonic Crystal Ice Mirrors for his (two attacks) that he was setting up , Haku was surprised and said "he's fast" after Sasuke outmaneuvered him, Sasuke said "you're fast, I'm faster", and Zabuza said (in the last scan) "What...? Haku is actually losing a battle of speed?!" while knowing his protégée's speed. If Haku was holding back, he would've said "why aren't you trying your hardest" or something of the sort.

Haku wouldn't have said "let me show you some real speed!" if he was naturally faster. He needed a cheap jutsu to showcase superiority in speed.

The Raikage's Durability Restrictions​

This is one of the few retcons of Part 1.

It specifically says that the speed is the issue, not the technique in general.
tumblr_p43pbleigs1urljpmo1_400.jpg
0562-006.png

Mangaka don't think highly of their characters durability, which is why they get cut by kunai which can't break through trees, so that explains why items can be transferred but not people.
But canonically, the speed is too much for them to handle.

Pre Timeskip, there are multiple sayings of Haku being able to move at the speed of light.



Haku can move at the speed of light.
Now, unless we want to use the retcon of dura required for lightspeed, go ahead.
But Haku can move at the speed of light, and the durability portion is a retcon of the dura required.
Click to expand...
im confused on your final take

are you fine with travel speed via the mirrors?
 
Cyberblader90 said:
im confused on your final take

are you fine with travel speed via the mirrors?
Click to expand...
When Haku is moving from a mirror to mirror, he is lightspeed in my opinion.

Reflection is the speed of light. The point of Haku's technique is that he takes advantage of the science of reflection to move at the speed of light.
For Haku, it’s possible to move between the mirrors at the speed of light.
Click to expand...
Notice how it says "between the mirrors". This works consistently with the mechanics of a reflection.
Reflection holds light and sends it back and forth.

So via travel speed, I am fine with it.
Kin201 said:
He disagreed with lightspeed travel as well and the reason is that it was apparently retconned by the databook itself.
Click to expand...
I didn't clarify.

I meant to say that in the case where we want to use the "retcon" as a "shut down everything pre timeskip" device, Haku will not be lightspeed.
If not, he will be lightspeed.
 
KingTempest said:
Sasuke is faster than Haku.
With Shunshin, without Shunshin, Sasuke is faster than Haku.

There is a difference between "Not Going For The Kill" and "Holding Back". Not Going For The Kill is trying your best to harm an opponent without killing them, which is harder than killing them, shown with Deidara and Gaara.
Zabuza said earlier that "he can keep up with Haku's speed", Haku says "you won't be able to match my speed for long" referencing his Demonic Crystal Ice Mirrors for his (two attacks) that he was setting up , Haku was surprised and said "he's fast" after Sasuke outmaneuvered him, Sasuke said "you're fast, I'm faster", and Zabuza said (in the last scan) "What...? Haku is actually losing a battle of speed?!" while knowing his protégée's speed. If Haku was holding back, he would've said "why aren't you trying your hardest" or something of the sort.
Click to expand...
But I disagree with all of this, by the way.
 
Thanks for clarifying Tempest.

I put more stock into the retcon but I can see and understand the use of the databooks to prove his Travel speed is LS between mirrors.

But saying his reactions and combat speed match that is still very wrong to me.
 
since its mostly agreed to be travel, can this be concluded? there can be a separate page for whether or not it scales to other speeds but the original op premise is done
 
Cyberblader90 said:
since its mostly agreed to be travel, can this be concluded? there can be a separate page for whether or not it scales to other speeds but the original op premise is done
Click to expand...
Yeah. The point of the OP is done. If any other topic needs to be talked about, then a new thread would/should be made.

Locking
 
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