Lifting Strength via Punching/Kicking

[Ugarik]

I always thought we concluded that punching or kicking a massive object should not count as a lifting strength feat. But the Lifting Strength page clearly states "Likewise throwing or punching an object a certain height upwards can be used as lifting feats, as these would require greater strength then just lifting the object"

I suggest removing that part and clarify that LS feats must involve grabbing an object in question.

 

[Newendigo]

Why?

Why should we deny punching or kicking a heavy object certain distances as a LS feat?

 

[Armorchompy]

In the end, punching and shoving aren't really that different imo. I'd say this is fine to keep.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I agree with this, LS is meant to be for actually lifting feats, not the force you can kick or punch

 

[Nerd1435]

Well throwing is lifting, although calculating lifting strength based on the acceleration it obtains while the object is in contact with someone's hand might give inflated results and it isn't necessarily possible that they can consistently apply that force for a long period of time like when someone bench-presses a weight

Throwing a weight should probably put them their lifting strength level at the weight of the object

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Throwing is fine for LS, punching and kicking is not

 

[Migue79]

What about for pushing?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

What about for pushing?

Eh pushing takes less strength than actually lifting or throwing something around

But I guess it depends on the context of the feat

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't see the issue in this, we scale pushing, dragging and crushing to lifting strength, why not shoving/punching?

 

[Nerd1435]

People can't necessarily lift with the force they punch. There is difference between impact and constantly acting the said force. During impact massive force sustains for extremely short time imparting it momentum

 

[Nerd1435]

As for pushing it obv depends on the resistive force whether it be friction or viscosity or something else and the force can be considered as the character lifting strength I think

 

[Armorchompy]

So, what's the cutting line? At what point does a shove become a push? One second? Two seconds?

 

[Nerd1435]

I think in most cases you'd be able to differentiate between them based on the portrayal in the panels.

If it is a shove, Idk how one should consider it. I think different people can look at it in different ways. But I believe a shove is closer to lifting something than it is to being an impact.

 

[Migue79]

Eh pushing takes less strength than actually lifting or throwing something around

But I guess it depends on the context of the feat

If it's pushing something up, then I'm certain it's valid. That we can agree at least, yes?

Though I guess pushing something to the side would be a little more difficult to say.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well pushing can also be used, I just meant to say that pushing takes less strength than lifting something, I didn't mean to imply we can't use pushing to scale LS

 

[Armorchompy]

Why should we treat a quick tearing motion as LS, but not a punch? It's the exact same movement, after all. Same thing for a throw, really. A quick movement with your arm.

 

[Nerd1435]

I don't believe their lifting strength should be based on the acceleration they achieve either, I only said their lifting strength should be tiered at the resistive force they encounter. And even at that, for shoving I left it into the open, not having a solid opinion about it. I only favoured it being LS because I believed it is closer to lifting something than punching/acting an impact. Although now that I think about it, a shove could also be an impact

Shorter the contact time, the more it is possible to get super inflated results for the force you would be acting on the object.

 

[Newendigo]

You are saying that if I punch a car with a fist x amount of distance in the air, I can't lift the same car with my arms?

This just sounds preposterous.

 

[Nerd1435]

If you punch a durable enough car into the air, then you can likely also lift the car unless it is contradicted.

Edit: actually idk

But you can't lift a weight equivalent to the force you acted upon the car at the moment of impact. This is how most feats related to striking something into air are evaluated rn.

 

[Migue79]

Well pushing can also be used, I just meant to say that pushing takes less strength than lifting something, I didn't mean to imply we can't use pushing to scale LS

I see... Apologies for misunderstanding.

Anywho, I'm neutral with regards to the OP's proposal for the moment.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm still of the opinion punching should be usable, but I understand the issue.

 

[Elizhaa]

Throwing is fine to remain since it relates to lifting strength; punching is fine to be removed, in my view.

 

[Ugarik]

Punching should be removed for the same reason why lifting strength is unrelated to striking strength.

Throwing (or anything that involves grabing an object) or continius pushing should work.

 

[Armorchompy]

Fine enough. Though, then I ask, why are other kinds of sudden motions allowed? Such as ripping out a character's head and spine, or quickly crushing their skull in your hand. With how fast your hand moves in such a motion, it's not that different from a punch.

Also Ugarik I still think the Lollipop Chainsaw thing counts as more of a shove than a kick

 

[KLOL506]

Fine enough. Though, then I ask, why are other kinds of sudden motions allowed? Such as ripping out a character's head and spine, or quickly crushing their skull in your hand. With how fast your hand moves in such a motion, it's not that different from a punch.

Also Ugarik I still think the Lollipop Chainsaw thing counts as more of a shove than a kick

For the spine stuff, you're grabbing something (The neck specifically, and then pulling it upwards), which would qualify for Ugarik's conditions.

As for crushing stuff, you're compressing something, but I don't think the compressing part was ever concluded.

 

[Ugarik]

Another way to define it. No collision are allowed for LS. Force must be a result of a continious pushing or pulling. Impact force wouldn't scale to lifting strength.

Seems clear enough

 

[Migue79]

The proposal of the OP seems reasonable enough.

 

[KLOL506]

Seems like this has a high-enough number of approvals from most calc group members, myself included. Should this be okay to go then?

 

[Elizhaa]

Yes. Changes seem fine to be made.

 

[Elizhaa]

I removed or punching, from the page. Is there any other clarification needed or does the change work enough?

 

[KLOL506]

I removed or punching, from the page. Is there any other clarification needed or does the change work enough?

Prolly add some deets about how LS-feats must always involve grabbing an object in question.

 

[Armorchompy]

But then shoving and pushing aren't LS feats, and that's silly.

 

[KLOL506]

But then shoving and pushing aren't LS feats, and that's silly.

Pretty sure Ugarik said in the comments that continuous pushing is fine, like pushing a car accelerating against you or stopping a speeding car/train dead in their tracks and then wrestling against a car accelerating against you.

 

[KLOL506]

Punching should be removed for the same reason why lifting strength is unrelated to striking strength.

Throwing (or anything that involves grabing an object) or continius pushing should work.

Specifically this comment.

 

[KLOL506]

But then shoving and pushing aren't LS feats, and that's silly.

And I'm definitely sure that shoving is not the same as punching. With shoving and pushing you're applying gradual force to attain momentum, while punching and kicking both involve unleashing all your momentum in your fists/legs instantly.

 

[Armorchompy]

I know, my point is you don't grab something you're shoving.

 

[KLOL506]

I know, my point is you don't grab something you're shoving.

Still, it's similar to other lifting feats involving grabbing because you're not applying all that momentum in that instantly, but gradually, just like how when you deadlift 450 kilos you don't do it instantly like a rapid jab punch. So I think shoving should be fine, just don't use it to scale someone's LS just because X shoved Y and Y has (insert LS Class) Lifting Strength unless there's evidence that they can also wrestle against each other.

I think we also have a calc specifically for shoving done by Jasonsith, that could come in handy.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree the text sounds a bit restrictive to LS feats like pushing. I feel the current text works, on the page. Throwing, I think, is implicit regarding it involves grabbing an object or character.

Pushing looks already explained here, on the page: As such appropriate pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic.

I am not opposed to better wording given. I am kind of drawing blanks. Suggestions are welcome.

 

[Hasch]

I agree the text sounds a bit restrictive to LS feats like pushing. I feel the current text works, on the page. Throwing, I think, is implicit regarding it involves grabbing an object or character.

Pushing looks already explained here, on the page: As such appropriate pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic.

I am not opposed to better wording given. I am kind of drawing blanks. Suggestions are welcome.

Can't all of this be called physical strength?

Since the mayor difference between punches and lifting is how you use your body weight, with superhuman characters the difference should be negligible.

 

[KLOL506]

Can't all of this be called physical strength?

Since the mayor difference between punches and lifting is how you use your body weight, with superhuman characters the difference should be negligible.

Would kinda get confused with Attack Potency and Striking Strength.