Lies of P Scaling & Profile Creation Thread (Spoilers)

[Lukewoesal007]

I think you can't have resistance to dura neg, just a resistance to that specific type of dura neg, in this case death or life manipulation probably

Would it be Durability Negation via Death Manipulation? Puppets aren't biologically "alive", though Disruption works on Pinocchio by (presumably) causing the cessation/preventing the function of the P-Organ.

 

[Chritin]

We know that Ergo is both a power source for Puppets and a manifestation of their memories and soul, so if the Scrapped Watchman was powered by the Golden Ergo, that would've been absorbed by either P or Manus, as the former absorbs the vast majority of the the boss' Ergo, particularly the portion which contains memories and personality, and the latter absorbed residual Ergo with his machine.


That level of dilapidation shown by the swamp Puppet would be inconsistent with the scale of time in the game. The swamp Puppet had been left in the swamp for so long that any paint (if any) it was coated with peeled away, and there is a clearly a thick layer of rust across its entire body. The events of Lies of P take place over days, and we know the Scrapped Watchman wasn't moved from the City Hall as late as the defeat of Archbishop Andreus.

Okay, after talking it over with some other people I think I've come to accept that it isn't the same puppet. It feels weird that they would add in an unexplained prototype of the watchman to the story and NOT explain it, but I guess it makes sense when you consider the time frame and the fact that all of the Watchman's Ergo should've been sucked up by Manus's machine.

However, I do still believe that the Green Monster using the Watchman in the swamp does apply the feat to Pinocchio, and thus he should still get the 8-B rating for the mid-late game.

SIDE NOTE: There is another possible argument for the Gold Ergo being applicable to the early game version of Pinocchio. Since the Watchman in the swamp was stated to have an overloaded battery, it could be possible that its powersource is superior to the Gold Ergo on its own. If Venigni was able to make a prototype that could contain the Gold Ergo (as well as a submarine that could utilize it), then it would make sense to say he would've used it for the actual Scrapped Watchman. However, in the final prototype he used a different power source, one so powerful that it overloaded it. This has even more creedence when you consider the fact that an integral part of the Watchman's story is that Venigni was overzealous in it's design. Let me know what you think of this theory though since I can see how it may be a bit off.

 

[Chritin]

Quick question: Would it be fair to say that Disruption should theoretically be able to kill most Puppets instantly, and that P has some resistance against it because he can survive brief exposure to it?

Also, on the topic of disruption: I don't think it's an instantaneous, since it does seem to have very deliberate build-up. I would rather say that disruption shuts off mechanisms continuously, eventually leading to total loss of function in a puppet. It's the same as breaking a phone and having individual parts of the mechanism still work before it totally loses the ability to function.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Okay, after talking it over with some other people I think I've come to accept that it isn't the same puppet. It feels weird that they would add in an unexplained prototype of the watchman to the story and NOT explain it, but I guess it makes sense when you consider the time frame and the fact that all of the Watchman's Ergo should've been sucked up by Manus's machine.

It's one of many instances where the game's subtle and often unexplained storytelling makes scaling harder, unfortunately. I actually counted when/where the time of day changes throughout the game, and the time between when we last see the Scrapped Watchman (during the Manus cutscene) and when P fights the Green Monster is less than 24 hours. The entire game takes place in a little over three days, which is a good feat for P's intelligence and accelerated development.

However, I do still believe that the Green Monster using the Watchman in the swamp does apply the feat to Pinocchio, and thus he should still get the 8-B rating for the mid-late game.

I suppose you could argue the amount of Ergo P had collected by that point in the game should at least be comparable to the energy output of Golden Ergo, though it seems to me that the Green Monster never directly utilized the power of the Golden Ergo itself.

SIDE NOTE: There is another possible argument for the Gold Ergo being applicable to the early game version of Pinocchio. Since the Watchman in the swamp was stated to have an overloaded battery, it could be possible that its powersource is superior to the Gold Ergo on its own. If Venigni was able to make a prototype that could contain the Gold Ergo (as well as a submarine that could utilize it), then it would make sense to say he would've used it for the actual Scrapped Watchman. However, in the final prototype he used a different power source, one so powerful that it overloaded it. This has even more creedence when you consider the fact that an integral part of the Watchman's story is that Venigni was overzealous in it's design. Let me know what you think of this theory though since I can see how it may be a bit off.

Firstly, where is it stated that the Watchman in the swamp had an overloaded battery? Assuming that's true, I think the theory has some validity to it, but as a general principle, I wouldn't want to use a theory that lacks any explicit or direct confirmation for scaling profiles.

Also, on the topic of disruption: I don't think it's an instantaneous, since it does seem to have very deliberate build-up. I would rather say that disruption shuts off mechanisms continuously, eventually leading to total loss of function in a puppet. It's the same as breaking a phone and having individual parts of the mechanism still work before it totally loses the ability to function.

It's hard to tell what exactly Disruption is, since the game gives no in-lore explanation, though in contradiction of my previous understanding, it seems to directly target the P-Organ (and thus likely other Ergo storage mechanisms in other Puppets), as shown in the death animation, where golden crystals hemorrhage from where the heart/P-Organ would be. So, it's potentially the Puppet equivalent of cholesterol blocking blood from entering and exiting the heart.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I think what's crazy is Geppetto being able to create a puppet

Spoiler

presumably out of Carlos' rotting corpse

that's more powerful than God Manus

 

[Chritin]

Firstly, where is it stated that the Watchman in the swamp had an overloaded battery? Assuming that's true, I think the theory has some validity to it, but as a general principle, I wouldn't want to use a theory that lacks any explicit or direct confirmation for scaling profiles.

First part was an accident, I meant to say that the Watchman itself (who at this point I'm just going to call Murphy for brevity) had an overloaded battery. Thus what I meant was since Venigni made a Watchman that used the Golden Ergo, and then made a subsequent one without it, it is safe to assume that Murphy was given a new energy source with the intention that it would be better than the Golden Ergo. However, the power source used was too much for the puppet body and overcharged it.

TL;DR: Murphy's power source is stronger than the golden ergo, and thus Murphy would scale above the puppet found in the swamp.

It's hard to tell what exactly Disruption is, since the game gives no in-lore explanation, though in contradiction of my previous understanding, it seems to directly target the P-Organ (and thus likely other Ergo storage mechanisms in other Puppets), as shown in the death animation, where golden crystals hemorrhage from where the heart/P-Organ would be. So, it's potentially the Puppet equivalent of cholesterol blocking blood from entering and exiting the heart.

That's fair, but like I said I don't think it is an instant death. Pinocchio still has a fairly significant resistance to it though, coupled by the fact that he can literally upgrade his own body to resist it more.

 

[Chritin]

Also, I'm planning on working on Romeo surviving the explosion pretty soon, but I was wondering how we wanted to calc it.

Initially, I was just going to go off Fragging or V-Fragging the King of Puppets, but there is also the fact that the entire Arena catches on fire after the explosion. So should I calc it as an explosion that fills the room instead?

 

[Lukewoesal007]

First part was an accident, I meant to say that the Watchman itself (who at this point I'm just going to call Murphy for brevity) had an overloaded battery. Thus what I meant was since Venigni made a Watchman that used the Golden Ergo, and then made a subsequent one without it, it is safe to assume that Murphy was given a new energy source with the intention that it would be better than the Golden Ergo. However, the power source used was too much for the puppet body and overcharged it.

TL;DR: Murphy's power source is stronger than the golden ergo, and thus Murphy would scale above the puppet found in the swamp.

I actually agree with what you're saying in theory, but I disagree with the assertion that Murphy's "improved" battery is more powerful or stronger than the Golden Ergo battery of the "prototype". Given how P, who is arguably the most powerful and Ergo-efficient Puppet in the entire story, can still quickly die to the Disruption inflicted by (what is presumably) Golden Ergo, I am doubtful a much weaker Puppet like Murphy would be able to handle a power source that is somehow more powerful than Golden Ergo. There's also just no direct evidence to suggest the theory is what occurred in actuality, so even if you wanted to put the rating on the profile for the early game, it'd be "possibly 8-B" at best.

That's fair, but like I said I don't think it is an instant death. Pinocchio still has a fairly significant resistance to it though, coupled by the fact that he can literally upgrade his own body to resist it more.

Going off the gameplay alone, it's instantaneous after a certain threshold has been exceeded, though I agree he does have a resistance to Disruption, even in base, and that's reflected in my draft of the profile.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Does anyone know of any good lifting strength feats for the verse?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Does anyone know of any good lifting strength feats for the verse?

Giant door opening ig

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I got someone to calc the crate bursting through the floor in the factory. it's solidly 8-C, and early game P should scale.

 

[Chritin]

I actually agree with what you're saying in theory, but I disagree with the assertion that Murphy's "improved" battery is more powerful or stronger than the Golden Ergo battery of the "prototype". Given how P, who is arguably the most powerful and Ergo-efficient Puppet in the entire story, can still quickly die to the Disruption inflicted by (what is presumably) Golden Ergo, I am doubtful a much weaker Puppet like Murphy would be able to handle a power source that is somehow more powerful than Golden Ergo. There's also just no direct evidence to suggest the theory is what occurred in actuality, so even if you wanted to put the rating on the profile for the early game, it'd be "possibly 8-B" at best.

Personally, I don't think the Golden Ergo is a the source of the disruption that we find in the game. That aside, Disruption is more of a byproduct of what could be Golden Ergo and doesn't have any relation to it's AP. Gold Ergo has a certain level of energy contained within it, but the disruption it possibly gives off is just a dura negating effect specifically tailored against puppets. Hell, that could also be the entire reason that the prototype was discarded in the first place, since it may not have been able to deal with the possible disruption.

Also, on the topic of the P-Organ, I should note as well that the core obtained from Murphy is actually what is needed to activate the P-Organ for upgrades. Thus, if we want to say that the P-Organ is much stronger than the Golden Ergo then I think an integral part of its development is Murphy's core.

Overall, I think I'm fine with we do "possibly 8-B". It gives Pinocchio a good identification of progression (at least by the mid-late game), since there is nothing before or really after it that is beyond 8-C until you get Manus jumping a while tier.

 

[Chritin]

I got someone to calc the crate bursting through the floor in the factory. it's solidly 8-C, and early game P should scale.

Nice! On a similar note, I may also want to do Andreus making the giant hole in the cathedral, although that may be tougher to prove since we don't know how it was made.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Personally, I don't think the Golden Ergo is a the source of the disruption that we find in the game. That aside, Disruption is more of a byproduct of what could be Golden Ergo and doesn't have any relation to it's AP. Gold Ergo has a certain level of energy contained within it, but the disruption it possibly gives off is just a dura negating effect specifically tailored against puppets. Hell, that could also be the entire reason that the prototype was discarded in the first place, since it may not have been able to deal with the possible disruption.

Also, on the topic of the P-Organ, I should note as well that the core obtained from Murphy is actually what is needed to activate the P-Organ for upgrades. Thus, if we want to say that the P-Organ is much stronger than the Golden Ergo then I think an integral part of its development is Murphy's core.

Overall, I think I'm fine with we do "possibly 8-B". It gives Pinocchio a good identification of progression (at least by the mid-late game), since there is nothing before or really after it that is beyond 8-C until you get Manus jumping a while tier.

If nothing else, I'm fine with P scaling to 8-B by late-game because he should massively upscale from the 8-C feat, regardless. The 8-B calc just gives us good, specific value.

Nice! On a similar note, I may also want to do Andreus making the giant hole in the cathedral, although that may be tougher to prove since we don't know how it was made.

I think that would be hard to link directly to anyone's AP, but it's worth investigating imo.

 

[Chritin]

I think that would be hard to link directly to anyone's AP, but it's worth investigating imo.

It's a pretty damn big hole, and there isn't anything else that could've made it besides Andreus, so I think it might be worth it.

Also, I'm planning on working on Romeo surviving the explosion pretty soon, but I was wondering how we wanted to calc it.

Initially, I was just going to go off Fragging or V-Fragging the King of Puppets, but there is also the fact that the entire Arena catches on fire after the explosion. So should I calc it as an explosion that fills the room instead?

Also, any thoughts on this?

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I don't really know anything about calcs, sorry

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Before I take a bit of a hiatus for finals week, I'll draw attention to some of the changes I made to P's profile, namely the addition of Keys and AP values. "Early Game" covers Chapters I-III, "Mid-Game" covers chapters IV-VI, "Late Game" covers chapters VII-IX, and "Endgame" covers chapter X and XI, as well as the endings.

 

[Deceived3596]

Does anyone know of any good lifting strength feats for the verse?

I think the main good ones that would scale to Pinocchio's stats would include: Pinocchio ripping off safe doors with his Legion arm, Pinocchio being capable of perfect guarding against large-sized enemies like Parade Master, Scrapped Watcher, Archbishop etc, and Pinocchio lifting gates up by pulling their lift chains with his Legion arm.

There are probably some more useful scaling feats out there, but these are the main ones I remember from my playthrough.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I think the main good ones that would scale to Pinocchio's stats would include: Pinocchio ripping off safe doors with his Legion arm, Pinocchio being capable of perfect guarding against large-sized enemies like Parade Master, Scrapped Watcher, Archbishop etc, and Pinocchio lifting gates up by pulling their lift chains with his Legion arm.

There are probably some more useful scaling feats out there, but these are the main ones I remember from my playthrough.

Are there specific LS values for the safe door or gate feat, or would we have to calc them?

 

[Deceived3596]

Are there specific LS values for the safe door or gate feat, or would we have to calc them?

We gonna have to calc them since we have nothing in-lore stated about their weight.

 

[Chritin]

Was there ever a reason that this calc didn't get accepted?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Was there ever a reason that this calc didn't get accepted?

No one has evaluated it yet.

I should note that the Earthquake came from the center of Krat. Take that as you will.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Was there ever a reason that this calc didn't get accepted?

I can get overhead pictures of Krat/the entire map later this week, if it'll make the calc more accurate. Though, I should note that P is not on the Isle of Alchemists when he feels the tremors of the earthquake; he's in the Barren Swamp, which is close enough to downtown Krat to accessible by railcar.

 

[Chritin]

I can get overhead pictures of Krat/the entire map later this week, if it'll make the calc more accurate. Though, I should note that P is not on the Isle of Alchemists when he feels the tremors of the earthquake; he's in the Barren Swamp, which is close enough to downtown Krat to accessible by railcar.

Sounds good. Although, I interpreted the earthquake as coming from Krat, since the machine was mostly ripping ergo out from the earth there.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I interpreted the earthquake as coming from Krat, since the machine was mostly ripping ergo out from the earth there.

I never disagreed with that. I'm just saying that the Barren Swamp is much, much closer to the presumed center of the earthquake (Krat Central Station) than the Isle of Alchemists would be. I'm not sure how much the distance necessarily matters for the calc itself, but I assume it would change the value.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

The game doesn't always have the full map loaded in at all times, but you can clearly see downtown Krat from an aerial view. I flew directly above the bridge which triggers the earthquake. I will note the building directly to P's left (behind the crane) is Krat Central Station.

 

[Chritin]

I never disagreed with that. I'm just saying that the Barren Swamp is much, much closer to the presumed center of the earthquake (Krat Central Station) than the Isle of Alchemists would be. I'm not sure how much the distance necessarily matters for the calc itself, but I assume it would change the value.

Ahh that's fair. I'm not sure if we could get an official distance though sadly unless NEOWIZ publishes an accurate world map.

 

[Chritin]

Did we ever get an official height on Pinocchio? Looking online most people say he ranges from 5'3 to 5'6

 

[Deceived3596]

Complete manlet

 

[Chritin]

Complete manlet

He's itty bitty (an actual child)

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Did we ever get an official height on Pinocchio? Looking online most people say he ranges from 5'3 to 5'6

Nah, but the calc I got for the falling metal crate assumed standard height.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Nah, but the calc I got for the falling metal crate assumed standard height.

True soulsborne moment

 

[Chritin]

I ran some numbers on Romeo surviving the King of Puppets explosion and it only came out to 9-A. I might try redoing it based on it fragging the actual King of Puppets body.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

That might be a decent durability feat for P, but if you get a higher value from the re-calc, it might be helpful for P's mid-game key, since he doesn't have a particular AP value for it. I'll try to look for some better feats for the latter half of the game, as I continue my playthrough.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Bump. I'll try to start wrapping up the profile in the next few days. Here are some of the calcs I need completed for the completed profile:

I think the main good ones that would scale to Pinocchio's stats would include: Pinocchio ripping off safe doors with his Legion arm, Pinocchio being capable of perfect guarding against large-sized enemies like Parade Master, Scrapped Watcher, Archbishop etc, and Pinocchio lifting gates up by pulling their lift chains with his Legion arm.

Anything from this list of feats for lifting strength.

Managed to grab a decent clip of the lightning-dodging feat. At the very least, I know it is possible to replicate in-game.

Lightning-dodging, if it requires a calc. (I can also get better footage if need be.)

In the meantime, I'll start uploading scans for the profile and begin work on the more qualitative elements, like Intelligence. I think P is solidly Gifted in terms of BIQ.