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Let's Hope This Doesn't Go To Shit This Time: Jonathan Joestar (Phantom Blood) vs Ruby Rose (RWBY)

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Yikes this has gotten messy, stop including what other people said in your own argument, that just clutters shit.

Still haven't gotten a proper counter-argument against my hamon affects forcefield logic, you just kudo'd the guy who said "ABC logic isn't necessarily wrong..." and then ignored it. ???

And really Weekly, using Grimm Eclipse as canon evidence? Well I guess Jonathan scales from this , if we're going by that logic. You know very well using a hack and slash as canon feats are not acceptable, even if they follow the main story. Ruby using her ice rounds during the Vytal fesitval doesn't even freeze him entirely...? There's literally no room behind the man for the ice rounds to "explode" off of, he directly got hit in the lower back, and only his legs are frozen? Even if you were to cover Jonathan in ice, how are you going to finish the job? Dio literally saps the heat out of a person, Ruby is just covering them in ice. If she goes ahead and touches the icicle, she's recieving a fat dose of hamon. And that's not mentioning Jonathan just using Scarlet Overdrive to thaw himself out, or you know, he just dodges.

Jonathan isn't a ****** either, if he realizes he's outmatched in an aspect, he'll turn the tables to his advantage, such as using the environment. If he baits the fight towards a lake than he can dramatically increase his power and range, if he can take cover from her ranged onslaught in a place like a forest, or a building, he will. He won't keep himself disadvantaged in this fight.

Jonathan's feat of 0.7 was very casual, meaning he should still be able to resist Ruby's scythe.

Moral of the story is it just takes one form of indirect contact against Jonathan for Ruby to lose this fight. Considering she literally uses a melee weapon... yeah she definitely won't be winning.

Hamon making sound in the anime is for dramatic effect, it is never mentioned or commented on in the manga to my knowledge.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong I thought Grimm Eclipse was stated to be canon?
 
The events may have happened, (though they're never mentioned in the show) but that doesn't mean everything from gameplay is now canon. Only the events that take place are considered canon.

A quick Google search reveals RT has said nothing in regards to whether its canon or not. So while the game has a set timeline in the story, it doesn't mean the events have happened in the story at all. So as we do on this thread, we assume it's non canon unless stated otherwise.
 
given that monty oum himslef was the one who contacted the creator of the fan game and asked started working on the officicial release, I think its safe to say it's canon
 
>Hamon making sound in the anime is for dramatic effect, it is never mentioned or commented on in the manga to my knowledge.

Once although that was from a overdrive .

>given that monty oum himslef was the one who contacted the creator of the fan game and asked started working on the officicial release, I think its safe to say it's canon.

Araki directed and wrote the plot of eoh .
 
Something interesting to note, is that stand users cannot harm stands without usin their own, only see them. Polnaref was unable to harm Death 13 without his Silver Chariot, he was only capable of seing it (ence why "only a stand can defeat another stand").

However, Joseph was still ale to effect the World with his hamon. Sure, he used Heremit Purple to touch it in the first place, but Hamon still effected it, but let's not forget the fact that Old Joseph's hamon in Part 3 was much rustier than in Part 2. While there are some tangible Stands, the World is definitely intangible, and yet, Joseph still "harmed" it with hamon.

Ruby's aura, while made of her spiritic energy", just like stands, unlike the World, it's a ctually a tangible manifestation, meaning that Jonathan's hamon (since hamon i even life energy channeled trough your body in the form of a ripple) could very well get past it.
 
Hermit Purple and The World are intangible manifestations of the soul, that's why I didn't use them as an example. Instead, Joseph had used hamon on Empress, which is a tangible manifestation.

Aura is a tangible manifestation too, therfore hamon works on aura.
 
ProfessorLord said:
He even summons Killer Queen as a spirit, so his soul clearly isn't Killer Queen. Regardless if you label a stand as a "soul", it's clearly not, since you can't have two souls. Having a manifestation of your soul shattered (in this case, a stand) doesn't necessarily mean your soul shatters, it just means that manifestation created has been destroyed.
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That's a bit of a contradictory claim.

Uh oh
Uh oh 2
Uh oh 1
Uh oh 3
Uh oh 4
Uh oh 5
 
They don't go shit usually. In fact the majority of them have good reasoning.

I don't live under a rock, do you?
 
>Weekly you know well enough that depending on the distance ruby cant even see shit as miniscule as hamon being sent into the ground. And of course depending on if ruby is close enough to see him do so ruby will probably opt for melee. Would provide scans that would dictate otherwise weekly if ya want although that probably wont do a lot to get ya to conceede as ya often dont even when provided with evidence. Point and case last jonathan ruby thread . Also the range for hamon only factored his weaponary and base and standard equipment weekly . Jonathan plus water or a cliff had far better yeah although jonathan quite obviously wont have a cliff on him at most matches or times weekly .

She was going to lead with range against the Goliath because it was so far away, she opted for range over melee against the Nevermore because it was initially far away, in her debut fight in her trailer she lead with range and then switched to melee when her opponent got close to her, she lead with range against Team ARBN. If you think his range with Hamon should be higher than make a CRT and get it changed.

>Give me a ratio. I can obviously claim goku does a bunch of shit and name off upwards of ten times but excluding the numerous amount of times goku didnt do a thing is dishonest.

90% of her fights have her spamming her semblance

>No. All hamon makes a sound within the anime. Hamon has been used to stealthily do shit in the manga before. It being incredibly loud would contradict. Also once again claiming shit that was not claimed. The fact that ruby is moving at such speeds. While firing shots and also attacking would drown the sound out. Of course youd extrapolate what i said though to some bullshit point as that

No, in the manga they have a specific sound effect when it is used as well. And yes, Jonathan moving at those speeds would drown out the sound of the bullets as well.

>Cool. Then ya couldnt find me saying that? Yeah above him. Which ruby is a tad. Dont recall me claiming any opponent above. But as your current debates have shown youve twist words quite a bit. Also ya claim that but completely ignore his fights with a casual dio. Or will doing a forcefiekds and blocking what would have been otherwise lethal debree. Also funny that ya often claim that ruby characters aura wont be broken quite that easy when fighting characters a tad above yet when the scenario is reversed the point ya make would get flipped around.

I just posted you saying it. Blocking debris isnt building level. And unlike Jojo, RWBY characters actually have consistent feats of blocking attacks from characters above their paygrade.

>Ya definitely not upgrading ruby a tier because ya feel the need to weekly. Without any debate. Probably dont have a issue myself yeah although ya gota prove that to kep not me .

Ive already talked to Kep about it, i was just too lazy to add it.

>Dio. Will explictly mentioning Jonathan and him are one of a fifth of dio. Of course as ya conviently didnt comment on the quote three times ya probabky dont have an actual point and counter to that weekly. Or the fact tarkus had a 0.7 feat with one finger which probably would mitigate any ap advantage on jonathan joestar although ya probably not comenting on that again anyway weekly .

Hey, if you thing Jonathan is higher than 8-C then youre the one who needs to make a CRT

>Game mechanics weekly. Also taking that as a conceede as ya probably cant. Post the dust freezing solid while from the anime.

Game Mechanics. Please read this and then tell me how exactly freezing someone in ice is game mechanics. Ive already posted the scene from the anime that shows it freezes people solid and it works exactly the same in both the game and the anime, unless you want to now claim that dust freezing people in the anime is "Anime mechanics".

>Ya best post the calculation on the profile then. Also the feat was apparently done with multiple support weekly . At least post the calculation on the match .

The lifting feat itself had no support whatsoever. She held the nevermore without any assistance whatsoever, the only support she had was Weiss using a glyph on the wall at her feet.

>Yeah no shit weekly. Any more insightful information? He can knock the dust away from a distance. Which may lead ruby encroaching on him. Also speedequal. Unless faster attacks move above the equalized speed of course that being the case would end badly for ruby.

Gravity Dust amps the speed of her normal bullets, and speed amps are allowed in speed equalized matches.

>JONATHAN would have a decent or around the same ap. Maybe above from the anthpnio quote and tarkus having a 0.7 feat done while exerting almost no effort and done while utilizing quite literally one finger man .

He has no feats or calculations on Ruby's level

>Then hamon would also make ruby useless and a puppet for jonathan.

He has to hit her with it first while she's blitzing around him and spamming elemental bullets

>Rubys method of attack a scythe would be a liability.

Trying to catch the scythe gets a limb cut off due to the AP and durability difference
 
MercuryPopcorn
Just watchin, dont mind me


But Ruby doesn't spam her semblance in one on one human fights. She does it when the opponent has higher AP like the Beringel & Gigas and she just has to dodge, or when she's trying to distract a big grimm.

Best thing she'll do in a fight like this is dodge a couple of strong hits by petal bursting. Blame the fight choreographers, we all miss Monty.
 
Ah so proving my point weekly. I can give you the scans. Can do so the moment ya ask. Of course yad pull the crt card. Youre an admin. Ya can edit the profile if need be the moment i post scans. Also once again ruby doing a coin tos of a lead is suspect especially when multiple points from the anime do point the other way weekly .

90%? That sure puts a dent on your credibility then of almost all fights had ruby doing something ya previously claimed often wont be a thing.

Seeing as the manga is litterally open in a tab at the moment and the only instance was jonathan litterally punching hard metal armor (which coincides with wagon stating the hamon had the sound of metal door pumeling ). Yeah may call ya out on that bullshit weekly. Also why would jonathan move constantly? Hed move when he must (dodge the dust) not because he can.


Are ya actualy doing that on purpose? No. I said above. If ya extrapolate above to mean literally all characters above jonathan then there yeah man but no offense there is quite something wrong with ya weekly especially after i explained my point. Also blocking debree from tarkus actual ly would be a building feat weekly. The same way blocking a projectile from superman would be a tierfour feat . Also unlike JoJo? Oh weekly if only ya actualy fact checked. The amount of time characters blocked attacks from 8-B fighters within jojo despite being a tad below is astounding. Joseph blocking kars blade despite being at least 3x weaker is a example.

Gona need to see that mate.

Weekly once again claiming things that had not been claimed . Only mentioned jonathan and will on forth of dio. Also the tarkus feat being done with litterally one finger would mitigate any advantage ruby have or would have unless ya think a feat being done with a finger is below casual efort.

Code: 
No ya posted a scene from the anime of being ENCASED not frozen solid weekly. And game play mechanics from the fact freezing solid could be a way to get rid of the enemies and cut down on lag. The same way when dio punches the road within games the roller explodes from the move.

Going off multiple search results because ya have failed to post the calculation. The monster weighed around 80 ton and support from Weis and another character had been needed.


YEAH and hamon can engance jonathan. Ya finally see my point?.

Ah my bad apparentky upscaling a bit iffy the most casual feats a factually incorrect way of doing things although is that not why the main cast of ruby is high 8 from scaling from a building feat?. Tarkus having a one finger 0.75 feat would at least mitigate any ap advantage ruby would have.

No. Hampn would or must hit ruby not him. Quite a big difference weekly .

Point above weekly . Also factoring the raw power difference at face value would still lack the ap to outright do what ya claim .
 
can everyone please calm down. This is ending up the exact same way as the last thread and its the same person initiating in both
 
Actually, the choreographers can replicate Monty's style, Jinx. The fights for volume 3 and the trailers for any volumes show this. Raven vs Cinder among them.

The only reason we don't get as many fights like these anymore is because Miles and Kerry (at least one of them I think) said they wanted to go for more "cinematic" fights. They're actively involved with the fight choreography so they can get what they deem is the "best" possible scene.
 
DraycoMakargo said:
Actually, the choreographers can replicate Monty's style, Jinx. The fights for volume 3 and the trailers for any volumes show this. Raven vs Cinder among them.
The only reason we don't get as many fights like these anymore is because Miles and Kerry (at least one of them I think) said they wanted to go for more "cinematic" fights. They're actively involved with the fight choreography so they can get what they deem is the "best" possible scene.
Click to expand...
Nah, Monty's style just cant be replicated by anyone. A lot of V3 fights Monty took part in before he died, The closest was Illia vs Sun. Winter vs Qrow, Qrow vs Tyrian, Cinder vs Raven (Which, while good, doesnt scrape Monty level. The overexaggerated swords and stuff, as well as the dumbest bits ruin that fight scene from being worth it for what was such a terrible volume.) all had different styles to it. They arent trying to replicate Monty anymore.

Even if they try replicating it, they just cant match the magic. Then again, even with Monty, Ruby barely used her semblance in a spammable way
 
@Arigamy, notice how in every initial instance they say 'souls', in quotation marks?

It's because they mean stands, not literal souls. They just call them 'souls' for whatever reason, maybe because of dramatic effect, functionally they are not the same as I've shown with my post.

And none of those stand rules contradict ghost Kira having a stand. He's literally just a soul, of course he can summon his souls manifestation.

Contradiction averted. Also, I'll debunk all of this Weekly nonsense when I get on a computer.
 
You have a strange idea howÒÇîJapanese punctuationÒÇìworks to satisfy your argument. Sorry, "Japanese punctuation", clearly meant it like that for dramatic effect. Also Whitesnake comment doesn't haveÒÇîthisÒÇìso you still gotta argue that. There's more to argue it is your soul than the one outlier with Yoshikage Kira.

The rules weren't mean to contradict your Kira claim? It was more the soul shattering comment.
 
Of course it wouldn't have japanese punctuation (aka the key brackets), it's an english scan.

The key brackets in japanese still represent quotation marks (afaik), so my point should still stand, the word souls is in quotation marks because they don't literally mean souls, but are refering to the extension of them, stands. The reason they are refering to them as souls is probably because of convinence, or dramatic effect.

DIO literally says, "Your White Snake has the ability to shape people's 'souls', and preserve them." So he actually does put souls in quotation marks, for the reasons I provided.

Still don't know why you included the rules of stands if they aren't relevant to your counter-argument.

EDIT: In conversation and not in convinent text, it would probably come up as a slight shift in tone whenever the word souls is in quotation marks. The reason Araki doesn't keep souls in quotation marks after they initially do, is because it would be very akward for someone to keep taking a slight pause and changing their tone of voice over and over.
 
For sake of simplicity and so others can give input without navigating several giant walls of arguments, I'll address and seperate the main points here:

In general, people (including me) believe Jonathan will win this fight because:

- Hamon has been used against tangible manifestations of the soul before (Joseph using it on the stand, Empress ), and aura in the form of a forcefield is what is protecting Ruby. Aura is also a tangible manifestation of the soul , and therefore should be susceptible to hamon. This would allow for Jonathan to abuse the body manipulation abilities that can be used through hamon (he has demonstrated doing this to Wang Chan before ), effectively allowing him to paralyze or basically force Ruby to do to anything he wants with just a single strike.

(Current counter-arguments: None, people seem to be in agreement now.)

- Jonathan has demonstrated countering a sword strike from warrior-turned-zombie with a single hamon kick, which then transfered the hamon through the blade. The name of this move is called Metal Silver Overdrive . This can be used to block Ruby's scythe, while at the same time, pump her full of hamon, allowing him to control her body or paralyze her, as discussed in the previous argument.

(Current counter-arguments: People believe Ruby's listed AP advantage to be far greater than Jonathan's listed durability, which would result in her just cutting his leg off with no ill consequences for Ruby.)

Current votes for Jonathan (8): ProfessorLord, TheJ-ManRequiem, OneShotYourFave, ShrekAlmighty, Jinx666, PolarKid, DMB1, Yobobojojo


In general, people believe Ruby will win this fight because:

- Ruby has a range advantage, and speed advantage via semblance, allowing her to harm Jonathan via her rifle without ever being touched by him. She also carries with her several different types of ammunition via dust, including gravity rounds (higher AP than normal), electric rounds (allowing for extra damage and potential stun), and ice rounds (allowing her to freeze opponents), which altogether, should allow her to beat Jonathan.

(Current counter-arguments: People believe that this goes against Ruby's fighting style, and that she tends to incorporate her scythe just as much as her rifle. This means she would unintentionally put herself at risk if she uses her scythe, as Jonathan would be in range to counter via Metal Silver Overdrive and follow up by pumping her full of hamon, or a straight up beating. People also believe Jonathan's durability feat to be very casual, meaning he should be able to withstand Ruby's AP. Jonathan should also be able to dodge her rifle rounds, and wouldn't just stand there.)

- Ruby's ice rounds would straight up freeze Jonathan, cutting off his supply to hamon (as we've seen with Dio's vaporizing freeze) and letting her finish him off without fear of him fighting back.

(Current counter-arguments: People believe Ruby's ice rounds do not function the same as Dio's vaporizing freeze. She just encases her opponents in ice, Dio's literally saps all the heat out of his opponent, which would mean Jonathan can still use hamon through the ice. The power of her ice rounds is also debatable, as the only time she has straight up icicled someone was in Grimm Eclipse, a hack and slash video game with questionable canon, and when used in the anime only the affected persons lower half was fully frozen.)

Current votes for Ruby (3): WeeklyBattles, ApiesDeathByLazors, Dannyphantom678

I've tried to stay as neutral as possible with this. A lot of the debating has already ended, please look at the arguments for yourselves and VOTE ALREADY!
 
Tarkus feat is hialriously casual which would mitigate the ap advantage along with jonathan being a fraction of dios power which would make any advantage which may have exusted a void point.

Jonathan also can use and channel hamon through the environmental area (example one being when he hamoned a cliff and ohkoed poco ) .

Excluding the fact stands being souls or manifestations wont effect a lot and actually would debate stands being a literal soul would cement hamon working even further on the aura from rwby .

My opinion at least lord .
 
I'll add the Tarkus reasoning to my post.

Everything else, while I agree, was kind of touched on in my post or not significant enough.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
No one is arguing that Hamon wouldnt work on Aura anymore
Click to expand...
It may have taken you a thread and a half to finally admit it, but I believe Arigarmy is still in the boat that believes it wouldn't work on aura. If he says he isn't, then I shall veto it.
 
@Professor Oh no i still believe it wouldnt affect Aura im just tired of talking to a wall

Ari knows more about jojo than i do so i'll leave it to him to decide
 
WeeklyBattles said:
@Professor Oh no i still believe it wouldnt affect Aura im just tired of talking to a wall
Ari knows more about jojo than i do so i'll leave it to him to decide
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...OMEGALUL

@Arigarmy, do you believe that Ruby's aura grants her immunity to hamon? If you do, then I shall keep the counter-argument available for people to see. If not, I will veto it, since nobody is making that argument anymore. It's the manifestations one, in my previous post.
 
I don't really care about what Ruby can or can't do, I wasn't paying attention to that at all. Don't throw me into that part of the argument.
 
Alright, mistaken identity. Veto'd the counter-argument.

I've laid out all the major arguments, time to see what people think.

It's time to vote. I've been updating my previous big post to include votes.

If you haven't made it clear, or see that I have accidentally mistaken your vote, please let me know.
 
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