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Legion (red Dwarf) Abstract and nonexistence downgrade

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ZacharyGrossman273

ZacharyGrossman273

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Abstract Existence (type 1, is completely formed by the immaterial consciousnesses of those in his ship), Nonexistent Physiology (At least type 1 while no one is on his ship, due to being completely formed out of their abstract consciousnesses)

This... is reaaaaaally bad logic here.

Being made of consciousness can be being made of souls, which is just non corporeal. And the nonexistence doesent even make sense.
 
What are you talking about. If something literally states that he does not become existent under certain conditions then he possesses nonexistence physiology. Secondly, yes stated to be a culmination of personality, skills and consciousness. These are all things that only exist in idea form and are therefore abstractions.
 
It fecking is. An abstraction is defined as something that only exists as an idea, the personification of skills, personality and consciousness is as such. Make an actual argument instead of constantly repeating the same point. Secondly, this clearly doesn't work as what you would consider non corporeal and what the wiki considers to be the soul and mind (which is basically just a non physical component of being rather than anything ontologically significant) since the people in his station wouldn't be functioning if he was just a being merging these aspects together, yet they are literally exactly the same and perfectly functional.
 
W h a t . being abstract is proof of having abstract existence. If you don't think the representation of gestalt skill, personality and consciousness are abstract then attempt to dispute that. Saying "they could be a collection of arbitrary nonphysical aspects" doesn't work for reasons I've explained. The mind and soul are attached to a body, if they get merged together then those minds and souls are no longer attached to those bodies.


Also for Legion's nonexistence he states he would be "nothing" and "cease to exist" whilst simultaneously being an essence and definable entity, just one without mind and with no physical presence.
 
Abstract Existence means embodiment of a concept or idea, not simply being an incorporeal hivemind. It is not how we define these things.
 
Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

"Embodiment" is the wrong word to use when describing one with abstract existence type 1, because embodiment literally implies they are physical. When you are the representation of multiple consciousness and personalities these are abstract ideas. A "personality" isn't a concrete form and more an idea used to describe specific behaviour and actions (you would say "greed" and "compassion" would be abstract concepts wouldn't you?), neither is consciousness in how it is used in RD. A "mind" is a non physical component that creates consciousness, Legion is literally the consciousness itself; while people are sleeping he ceases to exist. He is a representation of these things and not a literal amalgamation of minds since those present in his ship are perfectly functional. A "mind" is something attached to a body, creating consciousness and agency, while not attached to a body the body loses these things. This is not the case with Legion. He is very clearly a representation of non concrete forms or not conventionally definable ones and isn't a bunch of souls and minds fused together which you would consider a hivemind, but an abstract representation of the concepts of those in his ship. And because he is an abstraction, he obviously deserves abstract existence type 1.
 
If he actually is just made of up the gestalt consciounesses of the ship crew then I agree with the removal. Being made of consciousness or mind isn't abstract at all. Same with the NEP, it's directly contradicted by the so-called AE being showcased here.
 
How is it the same for NEP? Nobody as even given an argument for NEP. He isn't a conventional hivemind but a representation of non concrete concepts carried by those in his ship.

I agree when people say "consciousness" it isn't always proof of the abstract, but in this case he is completely and utterly something representing non concrete/ non conventionally definable forms, making him abstract. I wish people actually addressed anything other than "well if he's just a collective consciousness then because other characters are treated as such he should be downgraded because it could just be a gestalt soul" when this very clearly isn't the case here.
 
Unless he is the embodiment of time, hope, justice, love, chaos, order, or something similarly conceptual or metaphysical, then he doesn't qualify, period. We cannot make an exception just because you extremely like a franchise. I would appreciate if you drop the issue. Thank you.
 
What? That's not my argument. I said while it is reasonable to usually consider consciousness to be a soul or mind which would be more concrete in existence it isn't the same here due to how consciousness is treated.

Secondly, please stop using the word "embodiment" for minor semantic reasons on my part. Secondly, he is the representation of literally only conceptual forms. When their personalities and consciousnesses cease to be, he ceases to be. This isn't just them dying, it's them going to sleep. When these concepts cease to be he ceases to be. He isn't a regular hivemind for reasons I have explained.
 
How is it treated in any way differently than other consciousnesses? All the profile states is that he's a hivemind (paraphrasing) and nothing of this non-concrete conceptual stuff is mentioned at all. If you have proof, get it together and make a CRT. As of right now, nothing on that profile deserves AE Type 1 at all.
 
I mean, it was in a CRT. If the explanation isn't good enough I can fix it but that's a formatting issue more than anything else (there are a few issues like that I want to fix on the profile actually). Also I'm sorry if some of my comments have had shit capitalisation, I'm usually used to it being automatically applied
 
Also Ant you do know philosophy regarding the mind and soul is metaphysics right? Just saying
 
Again. This is not how we should gauge being an abstract concept for any other verses either. Please stop being argumentative and wasting our time. Thank you.
 
Bruh, when a CRT is made its the side advocating change that is being "argumentative" since they are instigating a change in the first place, this is the civil discipline involved and you know this. I get when consciousness is referred to without other context we more consider it to be a mind or soul, but this has context. A consciousness literally is something that only exists as a concept, it's either a gestalt collection of different functions or it is something not conventionally definable- either way making it abstract. In this case, extra context IS given which I have explained a thousand times with the same response, a response I have refuted another thousand times. You are wasting my time by supporting an unnecessary and uninformed revision making me have to explain and continue to refute one thousand times more because you have stubbornly taken this idea. But hey, if you think this verse shouldn't be treated differently for making extra context how about I make the obvious site wide revision, that a mind and consciousness (less so a soul due to vagueness and a lack of emphasis put into these points) is in fact ontologically and conceptually separate to normal constructs and give everyone abstract existence.

I'm beginning to get irritated by this unearned arrogance and ignorance regarding this conversation, at the very least start making an actual argument for NEP removal. You know, the thing given no argument whatsoever that you seem to have approved despite the fact that all CRTs should possess a semblance of a justification (otherwise they should probably be immediately closed). And maybe, just maybe start reading the text I have put out and make an educated judgement from that instead of clearly either having baselessly ignored everything I've been saying or just deciding to be pig headed and continue saying the same thing over and over and over again. Thank you.
 
Except nothing you're saying is backed up by anything in the profiles at all. This argument of yours that Legion should keep his AE and NEP basically boils down to "it's conceptual and non-existent because I say it is". When you realize that none of this so-called extra context that makes the consciousness abstract or any different from others in fiction is even present and all you do is assert that it is without even posting any relevant proof from the works, yes you are wasting our time.
 
I do not have the energy to deal with if somebody ignores our standards and stubbornly wishes to impose his own out of personal favouritism. Is somebody willing to ask Assaltwaffle, Sera EX and some administrators to help out with evaluating this?
 
Dude, I've established this proof a billion times, yes, I just asserted it without justification there because I've been justifying the embodiment of non concrete ideas and legion being a definable yet non-existent entity when nobody is on his ship a billion times this entire thread with shown events and statements but nobody has been listening to me. Address the arguments I laid out before please, because I have been justifying all my assertions.

And this isn't personal favouritism, stop mindlessly and baselessly insulting me. My statement that it should be treated differently from other verses appears to have had a large strawman applied to it. I said its treated differently from usual hiveminds via context I have pointed out quite a few times, yet you have continued to say this is personal favouritism (because all good civil discourse rely on baselessly insulting your opponent, not their position, for 50 percent of your "argument") for the same reasons over and over again without addressing the arguments I have laid forward.
 
I personally don't think that any characters who are not abstract concepts should be classified as such, but I am tired, distracted, and not particularly interested. It is best if somebody asks some other administrators to comment here.
 
and guess what ? we currently don't threat it as such

also, if you are tired just unfollow and go take a nap or something
 
For gawd's sake, just ask the people that I mentioned earlier, so we can get anywhere.
 
@Zachary

Since the other two are being argumentative about this, would you be willing to ask several administrators and discussion moderators to come here please?
 
Personally, I think that the misunderstanding might come from that somebody wrote "Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or an information" instead of "Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept or idea" in order to keep the ability easy to understand. That should probably be adjusted.
 
Abstractions have to exist conceptually in most cases, since they have no basis in a physical reality.I mean its different in like the genre of art but not relevant anywhere else. Also that example doesn't really work semantically because that's an example, not an exclusive statement.
 
The intended point of the page is not to include any spirit, consciousness, or hivemind, but strictly abstract concepts that embody aspects of reality, such as time, darkness, nothingness, chaos, order, etcetera. It has simply been worded in an easy to misunderstand manner.
 
@Zachary

Thank you, but we preferably still need confirmation from other staff members before I can slightly adjust the wording in the page.
 
@Overlord

That is not what we have done according to my experience, and it would make the ability far too all-including.
 
So has anybody asked other staff members yet?
 
To be fair, when I saw a verse get AE via being dreams, I started to think that we might be getting too lax with how this ability is granted.
 
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