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Legend of Zelda speed issues

Dust_Collector

Dust_Collector

They/Them
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So an issue we've had for a while now is that we've scaled most characters in the series based on this single feat from twilight princess Link, while a noticable chunk of characters scaling to it is fine since Ganondorf is as fast as this version of Link and other incarnations of Link have proven to be as fast as Ganon we've also scaled characters who have never fought or been compared to TP Link or Ganondorf to this exact feat. Now there's plenty of feats in the series of all the different Links reacting to beamos lasers like TP Link has and we've gotten some new calcs like this one to better scale the speed of all the characters.

However these feats happen in gameplay and not cutscenes, and Qawsedf234 expressed his thoughts about this in another thread:

"The beamos speed being SoL isn't really the issue. From what I see the most glaring problem is that the speed calc assumes out of nowhere that the beamos firing speed and Link's swinging speed are comparable based purely on visual gameplay mechanics and then scaling Link to it.

The Guardian lasers are all fine since it's a far more direct example of Link parrying the laser. Though I guess the most """accurate""" version of that calc would need to use the AoC cutscene since that's a direct reference to Daruk's journal."

This thread is to discuss the various speed feats in the verse, whether or not we can treat Link being able to move at speeds comparable to beamos beams in gameplay as valid, and finding and calcing more feats to better justify the speed ratings that many characters have.

Current list of calculated speed feats:
List of feats that still need to be calculated:
  • Vah Rudarnia drone flies down with it's searchlight (Happens in a cutscene)
  • Other beamos feats (Finding footage of this is hard)
  • Other guardian feats (Finding footage nowhere near as hard as beamos, reacting to and deflecting these lasers is super common in BOTW)
 
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I agree cutscenes seem more consistent when reacting to Beamos/Guardian Beams though I do not think the numbers would be too far off. Also, Link seems to throw the Deku Nut faster than the Beamos beams travel; FTL Deku Nuts anyone?
 
Could I ask for a video of the feats calculated by Clover? I don't believe there's one and I think it should be added to the blog, especially as I (anecdotally) remembered the beamos beams being instant in MM.
 
Armorchompy said:
Could I ask for a video of the feats calculated by Clover? I don't believe there's one and I think it should be added to the blog, especially as I (anecdotally) remembered the beamos beams being instant in MM.
Click to expand...
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well yeah i remembered them being instant there too

but they ain't so uh my bad
 
Vah Rudania's drones were also moving at comparable speeds to those fiery things that lava causes to appear, so that's not a good feat
 
Sorry I just missed the thread.

So anyways like with the TP calc it makes some rather glaring assumptions in my view.
Now we need the speed Link swings his sword to get the ratio, then we're done.


Link Height - 1.8 m or 102.32 px

Sword + Arm Length - 115 px

Arc Swung - 180 degrees

Time to Swing - 0.15 s or 9/60 s
Click to expand...
So the calc is making the assumption that the in-game speed of Link's swing can be scaled to the in-game speed of a Beamo.

The issue here comes from.... well everything. With this assumption Link's arrows should be FTL, falling rubble should be Rel to Sub-Rel along with many other things.

The OoT and MM Beamos are hitscan from what I understand (in terms of the beam hitting in front of them, not following them around clockwise). Meaning that Link swinging is just a one-frame thing before it strikes him.

Overall I think that the BotW stuff being Rel is completely backed by both lore, cutscenes and consistently gameplay.

But the earlier series don't have that same consistency in my view.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Overall I think that the BotW stuff being Rel is completely backed by both lore, cutscenes and consistently gameplay.

But the earlier series don't have that same consistency in my view.
Click to expand...
Yeah BOTW is super consistent thanks to actually having lore and cutscenes to back 'em up.
 
So for the earlier series, if rela stuff isn't considered consistent enough, there's a few lightning based feats to fall back on. Most notably General Onox moving alongside a bolt of lightning.
 
I still think it's fairly consistent for Young Link to be able to react/dodge Beamos beams, so I got nothing against him having Relativistic combat speed.
 
Well the issue for young Link (And other Links with beamos in general) is that his beamos stuff only happens in gameplay unlike BOTW Link who has statements and cutscenes to back up his guardian feats, young Link only has his sword swing or rolling animations being comparable via comparing them to the in game speed of the beamos beams.
 
Dust_Collector said:
Well the issue for young Link (And other Links with beamos in general) is that his beamos stuff only happens in gameplay unlike BOTW Link who has statements and cutscenes to back up his guardian feats, young Link only has his sword swing or rolling animations being comparable via comparing them to the in game speed of the beamos beams.
Click to expand...
I think there was some half agreement some time ago that speed in gameplay should only be compared to things it directly relates to. Say, a character dodging a bullet is fine, but you can't get the KE of them throwing something by comparing it to that bullet. I can't find the thread admittedly but I think that would save that feat from arguments such as "everything would be relativistic".
 
I mean the two Beamo feats currently are: A beamo hitscan attack hitting Link when he already began to swing and taking the in game speed of TP Link's sword swing and comparing it to the in game speed of the beamo beam hitting the ground once it's fired.

The former isn't a speed feat for Link and the latter is incredibly bad since under that assumption you can get FTL ball and chain along with other items by comparing the in game frame speeds.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I mean the two Beamo feats currently are: A beamo hitscan attack hitting Link when he already began to swing and taking the in game speed of TP Link's sword swing and comparing it to the in game speed of the beamo beam hitting the ground once it's fired.
Click to expand...
The first isn't hitscan.
Qawsedf234 said:
The former isn't a speed feat for Link and the latter is incredibly bad since under that assumption you can get FTL ball and chain along with other items by comparing the in game frame speeds.
Click to expand...
Which you shouldn't, because that's the kind of argument that "debunks" literally any in-gameplay speed feat, which I think is quite stupid. Not only that, but it's the same kind of logic to get tier 7 for literally anything in a game with a high-tier gameplay speed feat, which is even stupider. Speeds of things in gameplay should only be compared to things they directly relate to.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The OoT and MM Beamos are hitscan from what I understand (in terms of the beam hitting in front of them, not following them around clockwise). Meaning that Link swinging is just a one-frame thing before it strikes him.
Click to expand...
I have some potentially SAUCY opinions, dont crucify me.
It isn't, but Beamos isn't hitscsn, literally just went through that. They visibly go from Point A to Point B, they aren't hitscan, never were in any game I can recall.

But anyway I'm vehemently against dropping Beamos, we can tweak it, but dropping it entirely, is to be blunt, dumb imo, and is simply utterly ridiculous when it comes to what you're actually expecting the game to do.
What matters is if Link, logically, should be and is intended of interacting with them and the beam. If the answer is yes (Which it is), we can the calc his said interactions with that beam.

Arguing that " it'd make EVERYTHING ELSE in game fast as ****" is kind of unfair, because this would go for EVERY game ever. What is MM, SS, OOT, TP and more actually just below average human movement, average human reactions? And then what about the arrows, gameplay wise they move pretty damn slow, way slower visually then real arrows, but obviously they're not intended to be that slow, it's a game, you have, the player, have to be able to play the game, same with Beamos. What matters is how fast it's supposed to be, and if Link, the character in question, is logically capable or intended to perform the feats he does with them.
Your complaints aren't fair, especially when talking about a game that's like 25 years ol, like damn right the speeds of everything aren't going to be 1:1 identical with irl and portrayed and depicted the same in a old ass 12 FPS game. Even modern games don't do that, I could find some games right now where things would have a stated fast speed, the characters can avoid them in game, but something like a falling rock isn't displayed as being frozen. Not even new games do that, like let's take Elden Ring as a new example, they have legit lightning magic, attacks that cause them to move so fast that they immolate and cover hundreds of kms in seconds (Radahn) and other meteor spells that get pulled directly from a cosmic void (meteorites in space move at like 70km) and a bunch of other wacky stuff, but in gameplay it's actually not a whole lot faster than say, a crippled NPC's walking speed, or a horse, or arrows funnily enough, or falling debris, and so on, which is something, because all these feats happen IN gameplay, so if we're going "Fast thing not accurately displayed as [accurate difference] faster than [thing not fast], then [fast thing] isn't that fast" would apply to that as well, among like a hundred other games (F-Zero is a particularly bad example, game even lists off your speed in kmph but falling boulders aren't statued). Is this natural lightning or ablation speeds or what not suddenly not that fast because gameplay wise it's only like maybe 3-4x as fast as an arrow or not even that much faster than walking speed? Of course not, it's a game, things can still be as fast as they're meant to be while co-existing in a game, what matters is how they're displayed in context of a moment within the player's perception of them and how the player can interact with them at a given time.
Or for another game of that time, what about MGS (This might actually be a bad example due to lore contradictions but imagine if it weren't)? The bullets in that aren't hitscan, they vary in speed, and it's entirely possible to dodge them in game, they all have direct stated speeds, but the falling rubble or moving cars don't appear to be going snail speed even though the bullets with stated speed aren't going the proper speed you'd expect them too, like are we going to say ocelot's SAS or the Genome's mach 3 FAMAS aren't that fast because of those same reasonings? Of course not. Luckily they eventually implemented a mechanic for this, a type of slow mo effect in the most recent games, but funnily enough, Zelda did the exact same thing with BOTW, but in that same vain, the Guardians in BOTW ALSO have these issues, the guardian lasers aren't portrayed as roughly 1,200,000x faster in game as say, a horse, the average walking NPC, arrows, falling rocks and so on, but they're obviously meant to be light beams anyway (Guardians are literally just the sequel to a Beamos), but if in game the lightspeed beam can be interacted with and dodged and what not in BOTW and we accept that as lightspeed even though the same issues apply with how the beams speed is displayed comparatively to other things in the game world, what makes that ok and not everything else? Is it because there's a line about how Link can react to it? Ok but no, that doesn't work, because your complaints don't talk about if Link SHOULD be able to do it, but instead talk about how the beam in gameplay isn't actually a million times faster than normal shit, which that same issue applies, see the issue? It's a video game, what matters is contextually, how you're supposed to or are allowed to interact with something in the moment, not as a whole, otherwise every video game would need like some sort of unique bullet time that shifts and dynamically changes how you perceive the world in regards to every caliber of speed per item or object, which is never going to happen. Point is, holding a N64 game to an unrealistic standard is bad. The fact the beamos is portrayed as being faster than most things in the game should honestly, be good enough.

But you also mentioned "it isn't consistent", again, that'd apply to everything ever, but by that logic, nothing in the game is anyway, are explosions athletic human now because bombs exploding aren't that fast too? But what about things like dodging lightning or meteors or other beams of light (Majora for example has a beam of light attack, but it isn't a billion times faster than everything i̵i̵r̵c̵ ̵i̵t̵'̵s̵ ̵a̵c̵t̵u̵a̵l̵l̵y̵ ̵a̵ ̵r̵e̵p̵u̵r̵p̵o̵s̵e̵d̵ ̵b̵e̵a̵m̵o̵s̵ ̵b̵e̵a̵m̵) or what about Majora pulling the moon down from orbit? (Several hundred thousand km in lore to where it catches fire, but technically speaking, only about a km in game and the speed it moves in the cutscene is literally barely average human even though it's a moon being dragged down so fast it caught fire and proceeds to glass the planet?), I could go on. Consistency with light? It wouldn't just be the beamos beams that get killed by this flow of logic, everything would, even when we know explicitly some things are meant to be fast or a certain speed to varying degrees.

It's meant to be a beam of light (probably), and Link is capable of interacting with it, and it isn't hitscan but instead perfectly able to do be reacted to and then deflected or what not. This should be all we need.

But let's say the fact it's a sword swing is an issue, ok fair, I can get that, why a sword swing? Why not do backflip too or running? Picking sword swing itself can come off arbitrary and there's no REAL reason why to assume that, but does that mean we should toss it anyway? Not inherently, we can instead swap sword swinging out with shield movement, that shouldn't have any issues with it as Link can very much block them, and even deflect them in some cases. That's an intended and purposeful mechanic and interaction. Unless we're just going to assume that's fake and he actually can't block Beamos beams which is dumb as shit, the action Link takes to raise his shield in order to block a beam should be fine. Link being able to raise his shield to deflect the beams or stop them is an intended mechanic much like BOTW shield bashing shit is, the game enables you to do this, and there's no reason beyond an argument from incredulity that Link isn't actually supposed to be able to react and deflect or protect as that game blatantly enables you to and it'd make even less sense from a narrative view if Link is utterly incapable of reacting to them and in reality they blitz him a million times over (And again, they aren't hitscan, they take like a few frames for the beams to go from Point A to Point B, which in a 12fps game, is actually quite a bit).

It's a video game, there's gonna be feats that happen in gameplay especially when there's very little actual cutscenes that aren't just exposition.
Holding a game to unrealistic impossible standards isn't exactly fair.
Context helps and figuring out intended interactions to see what is likely meant to be taken at face value.
Best I can compromise on is we switch from sword attacks to how long it takes Link to shield it, we're not just gonna pretend a long lasting enemy staple doesn't exist and any interactions with it don't count for, to be blunt, lol bideo gaem logic and limitations.
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Qawsedf234 said:
A beamo hitscan attack hitting Link
Click to expand...
If they're hitscan in TP, that just means Link before the end game gets ****** speedwise, because most of the time, they're not hitscan, but I don't recall it being hitscan in TP?
 
Armorchompy said:
The first isn't hitscan.
Click to expand...
Yeah you're right
Armorchompy said:
Speeds of things in gameplay should only be compared to things they directly relate to.
Click to expand...
But the TP calc is entirely that. Its not calcing Link's sword swing to the Beamo's speed. Its getting the speed of the Beamos speed in m/s, gets Link's sword swing in m/s and then makes the assumption everything is slowed down and divides the results by the speed difference. You can do the same thing with literally any item in the game and get similar results by using the same assumption.
Chariot190 said:
Best I can compromise on is we switch from sword attacks to how long it takes Link to shield it, we're not just gonna pretend a long lasting enemy staple doesn't exist and any interactions with it don't count for, to be blunt, lol bideo gaem logic and limitations.
Click to expand...
After reading your rather unnecessarily long war and peace ramble about gameplay mechanics that I already acknowledge, sure we can keep the MM stuff since I was wrong about it.

But the TP thing needs to be replaced entirely. The core fundamental aspect about it is just wrong.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
After reading your rather unnecessarily long war and peace ramble
Click to expand...
Would you prefer I just say you're wrong without going into detail on why and why it sets bad precedents, ***** with intent and a whole load of other issues? Without listing said issues and giving examples? That just seems like half assing to me.
 
Chariot190 said:
Would you prefer I just say you're wrong without going into detail on why and why it sets bad precedents, ***** with intent and a whole load of other issues?
Click to expand...
There's a difference with going into detail and then writing a 1,600 word mini-essay.

Some your examples are wrong or have explanations to them as well:

  • The Elden Ring spells don't have legitimate MHS+ showings people scale to, meteors are teleported and while Radahn's ram is fast we also have a massive time to react to it
  • MGS has its own massive host of issues and their speed is being downgraded whenever some other mods actually get to working on it
The key thing about the TP thing isn't that Link swings a sword while the beams are firing or anything like that. Read the actual calc here
Beam Travel Distance - 187.32 px

Doorway Width - 490 px

Travel Time - 0.016 s or 1/60 s (Using this website)

Link Height - 1.8 m or 88 px

Doorway Width 2 - 376 px


376/88 = 4.27x

4.27*1.8 = 7.686 m

187.32/490 = 0.382x

0.382*7.686 = 2.936 m

2.936 m/(1/60 s) = 176.16 m/s (This is for in-game speed)
Click to expand...
They get the beamos speed to cross from its position to the trail in front of Link
Now we need the speed Link swings his sword to get the ratio, then we're done.


Link Height - 1.8 m or 102.32 px

Sword + Arm Length - 115 px

Arc Swung - 180 degrees

Time to Swing - 0.15 s or 9/60 s


115/102.32 = 1.12x

1.12*1.8 = 2.016 m

C = (2)(pi)(r) = (2)(pi)(2.016) = 12.67 m

12.67/2 = 6.335 m

6.335 m/(9/60 s) = 42.23 m/s


And now for the last step.

42.23/176.16 = 0.24x
Click to expand...
He then calcs Link's sword swing and then independently scales that to the Beamo speed.

With this calc's assumption you could take literally anything from Twilight Princess and scale it to the Beamo. MM Link is actively doing something before he gets hit, TP Link's calc is taking any independent swing he does and scaling it to a specific instance.

Its just clearly bad and shouldn't be used in its current state.
 
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Qawsedf234 said:
  • The Elden Ring spells don't have legitimate MHS+ showings people scale to, meteors are teleported and while Radahn's ram is fast we also have a massive time to react to it
Click to expand...
Not actually true, some of the meteorite spells work by merely opening in a portal from space, to have meteorites go through them. They aren't teleported, at least not always, in the cases they aren't where it's just opening portals, those meteorites would still retain their momentum and movement from space as all that's happening is meteors hurdling through space enter a portal and then slam into a target, they actually have the benefit of not slowing down due to re-entry. It's honestly, probably the best case scenario for meteor speed scaling I've seen in a game. Completely skips the middle man.

And so? If it was consistent with the rest of everything, Radahn's whole move their would've been subframe, if we just compare the movement he went with crippled old castle dude, you'd get like subsonic crawl speed for NPC's, hypersonic torrent movement, etc. My point remains, Radahn is blatant high hyper ablation, but if following that line of logic you put forth, it would **** everything up even if you have time to react, because it's not about reacting, it's about how everything else compares.

MGS has its own massive host of issues and their speed is being downgraded whenever some other mods actually get to working on it
Click to expand...

Lol nobody tell him.

I agree that the TP calc is ass, but I disagree with you saying those examples were wrong, ignoring the lightning shit because that's up for debate, Radahn and meteors actually do qualify. And MGS is something you don't even wanna start on. But anyway, derailing now with that, dropping it.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
But the TP calc is entirely that. Its not calcing Link's sword swing to the Beamo's speed. Its getting the speed of the Beamos speed in m/s, gets Link's sword swing in m/s and then makes the assumption everything is slowed down and divides the results by the speed difference. You can do the same thing with literally any item in the game and get similar results by using the same assumption.
Click to expand...
That's fair enough. That should be replaced with Link shielding or something, since that would actually interact with the beam, or even a roll/sidestep since that's a dodge
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The other two feats would just be aim dodging considering how they follow Link or Flash before firing.
Click to expand...
What? Why would that be aim dodging, if Link can physically make a movement after they fired to I-Frame or dodge the beam, then that's just him dodging it.
Them having signs of attack doesn't mean it's aim-dodging, at that point you may as well argue every single enemy in the game is a case of aim dodge because they all have tells because that's how proper video game design works.


It's only aim dodging if Link can only actually avoid them by simply dodging ahead of time but that simply isn't the case.
 
Chariot190 said:
Why would that be aim dodging,
Click to expand...
Watch the WW and ALTtP Clip. Both involve Link dodging before the beam fires (the red flash warning) or its the eye attempting to follow Link with the beam (Link is just outrunning the slow pace of the eye tracking him). Only the TP clip showed him doing something relative to the beam travelling.
 
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