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League of Legends Discussion Thread 4

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@Regis Look at Street Fighter. Look at Mortal Kombat. Look at any game where there are a few high tiers and a LOT of low tiers that can fight each other on even ground. While i do agree that the reasonings need some serious work and i am currently working to adjust them, removing their scaling completely makes no sense.

I could actually make an argument about Mega Gnar scaling to Anivia but thats a discussion for another time.
 
WEEKLY the game is not canon. Scaling anyone to low 7-C because of gameplay is just wanking. Some of those character are normal humans with weapons. Who get hurt by bullets. Thats like me creating pages for heros of the storm characters. The nexus mind you has more evidence of being canon than summuners rift and takes something lets say. Ragnaros and scale anyone to them. 7-A Protoss probe and 7-A Murloc.
 
Those sort of games usually have most of their characters encounter each other story-wise, and there are multiple endings which all sort of confirm the scaling, at least that's my experience with a different game, Tekken. I have no idea how SF or MK work so if there is a mistake, feel free to correct me.

Rather than remove their scalings, I'd prefer a bit more accuracy like say 'Lucian scales to MF and GP via [insert reasoning and link to feat]'. Right now it just seems a bit too vague, since by that logic people like Ivern and Yorick should scale to Garen or Jarvan despite them existing in separate places and having had no interactions with each other by their stories.
 
@Bepo I cant tell if youre joking or not...

First off i dont recall anyone in LoL ever actually being harmed by a bullet, but if they were it would be an anti-feat, the equivalent of Spider Man or Thor being injured by bullets.
 
He has a point though, most of the characters who are scaled to the 7C feat of Garen have generally shown far lower feats. Ekko as an example is noted to be threatened by long falls, bullets, thugs etc, things which are not 7C by nature. MF can and has gotten shot before, while Gangplank ends up surviving his ship's explosion badly wounded. Nothing that by its nature says 7C, yet they are rated as such only via scaling to Garen.
 
...? Bepo what are you talking about? Garen has a 7-C feat, Udyr has a 7-C feat of fighting Ao Shin who is the size of a small mountain, Janna creating and manipulating weather on a wide scale, Braum busting a good portion of a mountain with his punches, Rammus causing magnitude 6 earthquakes, Nami creating tsunamis, Ziggs' Mega Inferno Bomb utilizing nuclear fission, Urgot being at the epicenter of an explosion which rivaled the explosion that created the city of Zaun, Rek'Sai laying waste to multiple Shuriman cities, and Kassadin and Kai'Sa fighting and killing Voidborn that would be well into tier 7 through their sheer size, all tier 7 feats. Technically Darius has a feat of tanking a meteorite that yielded 7-C as well.

That kind of language isnt necessary
 
Its completely fine to scale characters such as Shen,Zed,Elise,Morgana,Sivir etc. to garen

as Garen is just by definition a strong soldier in the demacian army so other champions such as zed for example who fought against invading forces of noxus and is a Ninja that has been training his whole life has no reason to be any weaker than Garen
 
@Bepo One word: Scaling. Even if you want to ignore the game completely a good majority of the cast still scales to Garen lore-wise
 
Example A genin in naruto has a 8-B feat

Its quite obvious that At least Kage and jonin are stronger than him

As garen is just a guy who has regular demacian training people who have had some magical enchancements/Better training are obviously comparable to him
 
Show me evidence that teemo is as strong as garen show me evidence that Graves or Miss fortune ARE as strong as Garen. Show me evidence that Caitlyin is as strong as Garen. Saying they can hurt eachother in game is not valid. You already know that the game is not canon. Stated by riot themselves. Stop playing dumb
 
Garen's 7C feat is questionable as I've said before:

'

  • Garen's Demacian Justice ― My biggest problem with this is that this is based on a game mechanic (namely, Garen's ultimate ability) and from a cinematic highlighting the game, with no real connection to the lore, and is never shown or hinted at in Garen's new lore on Universe. In his stories and bio, he's presented as a highly skilled, non-magical warrior who is also a bodyguard to the Demacian Royal Family and Jarvan IV.
  • Nowhere is it mentioned that he is also capable of negating magical attacks by himself (that is done by his specially made armour) or summon giant swords from the sky, something that would be considered magical, and very taboo in Demacia, given what we now know about its history. Such an ability would not only have put him in the same situation as his sister Lux (as being forced to hide it in fear of persecution and hatred), it would also go against his entire character as a person who hates and fears magic.
  • Essentially, Garen being able to use Demacian Justice as presented in game contradicts his lore and since lore and gameplay are no longer compliant, I'm in favour of using lore to rate him rather than a game mechanic.'
And once again scaling is brought up without any supporting justification. You all keep repeating it, yet never provide any real evidence to justify it.
 
@Regis Funny you should mention it not being in the lore, because Swain actually specifically mentions how Garen DOES use magic in battle, he is just completely unaware of it. Nowhere in his profile is it stated that he negates magic by himself either so im not sure why youre bringing that up. Garen being able to use Demacian Justice does not in any way contradict his lore, once again it fits more than it ever did now that Swain actually backs it up. Him having an ability is not a game mechanic. Once again youre completely ignoring context and canon and youre basically just using your own headcanon as an argument. As I said before, the game and lore are not segregated like they were before the retcon of the Institute of War, if anything theyre more intertwined that theyve ever been before.
 
If in the future, Riot makes a story where Garen finds out he has magical powers, then I'm completely fine with re-adding the feat and using it to scale only those who have fought the hypothetical Garen. Until then, by Riot's stories, he has shown himself to be incapable of magic.
 
Swain only says that he is unaware of the magic Garen carries. Nothing implies that Garen can use said magic to make himself that strong and durable, or call down giant swords in the lore. It opens the possiblities that Riot can explore where he finds out about the magic and has to deal with it as he has feared it his whole life, but right now he has no idea that he can even use magic.

Again, you keep saying that the game and stories are intertwined, yet never provide any proof other than ingame Easter eggs and hints via voicelines.
 
@Regis As assalt and i have already stated multiple times, it does not matter if their in game abilities werent in their lore, that doesnt justify removing them for no reason whatsoever. If we went by your train of logic with, say, Overwatch characters for example, half of their profiles whould have no abilities whatsoever due to not using those abilities in their lore, but we're not removing them because of that because there is no reason to. Long story short, we're not removing in-game abilities.
 
Why would I debunk Swain's statement? Swain hasn't given any reason to assume that he's lying and voice lines are one of the many ways Riot tends to give us lore tidbits.

That said, there is a clear difference between one's character (aka their personality if you couldn't understand) and one as a character, a fictional being that we can observe through stories and games. Garen's character is defined by his hatred and fear of magic as it had caused the death of his uncle and the fact that he grew up in Demacia, which naturally hates magic as it nearly wiped out the orignal settlers a long time ago. This is also why he's afraid of being right about Lux having magic as it would mean that he might have to kill her.
 
Why would I care about Overwatch and how people rate their profiles? I'm specifically focused on League. If Overwatch has similar problems as to what I've described about League then it might need some changes, but like I've said, I don't really know or care about it. I tend to stick with series I know.

'No reason to' isn't really great logical reasoning there, Weekly. I could just as easily keep insisting 'No reason to keep abilities, just because' to support my point, yet I don't. I point out that there are contradictions between the game and the narrative, that we don't treat all the profiles the same (higher tiers tend to have more feats, statements and logical reasoning, while lower tiers tend to have none) and that thus, we should revise the scalings and ratings.
 
To use magic, one would tend to show it,n hence supporting that assumption. Going by how Garen's game abilities work and the lack of such abilities in his stories, one can conclude that as of his current stories, he has no such abilities.
 
@Regis Because thats the basis for how we format profiles here, its the exact same scenario. Just because you disagree with it doesnt mean it will change because it wont. Like it or not the things youre trying to do will not be accepted as it goes against the standards of the wiki.

And those contradictions dont matter as its been stated multiple times. Once again youre blatantly ignoring how the vast majority of game profiles in this category are rated here, the format and rating system of which LoL follows, out of your own personal bias, irrational disagreements, and overall clear as day dislike of the fact that LoL characters are rated what they are solely because they dont seem that powerful to you. Your constant attempts to downgrade LoL based on backwards logic, coupled with your elitist attitude and lack of regard for things that not only i, but multiple staff have repeatedly told you no to are beginning to get extremely tiresome. This is your final warning.
 
The wiki standard I've seen applied to other games and verses tend to have valid feats and logical scaling, none of which is present here. I'm just calling it out here.

You've never stated clearly why they don't matter, only just pointing at other profiles and calling that proof, ignoring any arguments I've made and repeating your point over and over like a broken record.

It's very nice of you to assume things that aren't true about me. I don't dislike anything just because of how they make me feel, I just don't find the scaling credible enough to warrant the ratings as they are. If that's called bias, then I too can paint you as being insanely biased about keeping things the way they are now for some unknown reasons.
 
Yes, and LoL is no different.

Ive stated multiple times why they dont matter, as has Assalt. You simply refuse to listen.

I didnt make any assumptions, everything i said is based off of everything ive seen from you. If you dont find the scaling credible then the entire fighting games section of the wiki as a whole is due for a MASSIVE revision because theyre all scaled the exact same way. And yes, that would be bias on your part as youre attempting to downgrade LoL based on dislikes and speculation with no backing that hasnt already been debunked and rejected by multiple admins and people knowledgeable on the verse.
 
LoL is very different for reasons I've already said: Lore doesn't really affect the game and vice versa anymore. You keep ignoring this.

You really haven't.

How is that my problem? I don't really know or care about the other fighting games. Whether they have problematic scaling or not isn't my concern. As for knowledgeable people, here in this very thread we have some who don't necessarily agree with you. Is it really impossilbe that you and some other admins could be mistaken?

I've never attempted a revision based on bias. I've always given reasons and evidence as to why I think some characters have the wrong tier and you keep assuming it's bias just because I've done some downgrades.
 
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