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League of Legends Discussion Thread 4

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WeeklyBattles said:
@Regis The guy who wrote the story said it was Nocturne, what more proof do you need?
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He never says that at all. He only makes up a suggestion for a story he wants to write, which is not at all proof that it was Nocturne.
 
@Regis Udyr scales to Lee Sin as well as the members of the Winter's Claw

You do know what a fission bomb is right?

Not at all unquantified or vague, just because you say so doesnt make it true especially with your tendancies

Braum scales to the Avarosans

Rek scales to the rest of the Voidborn

Everyone else scales through the game
 
WeeklyBattles said:
@Regis Udyr scales to Lee Sin as well as the members of the Winter's Claw

You do know what a fission bomb is right?

Not at all unquantified or vague, just because you say so doesnt make it true especially with your tendancies

Braum scales to the Avarosans

Rek scales to the rest of the Voidborn

Everyone else scales through the game
Click to expand...
How does Udyr scale to Lee Sin or the Winter's Claw at all? Just because they've worked together doesn't mean they automatically scale without furhter proof. Same goes for Braum and Rek'Sai. Rek'Sai especially since we're never told that all the Voidborn are equally strong.

Again, useless without a further calculation. Just because it's said that he uses nuclear fission doesn't automatically make his explosions that strong.

Nice accusations, but it still doesn't disprove the fact that the explosion is vague and unquantified. Not surprising coming from you.

And once again, using gameplay to determine the scaling. Why not scale everyone to Aurelion Sol or the Aspects then, since you're so insistent on making them scale through gameplay?
 
@Regis Have you read Udyr's lore? Lee beat him in a fight. And yes actually it does, there are hundreds of profiles on this wiki that are tiered through that reasoning alone.

Nuclear fision = nukes my boy

Looks like you havent read the lore, i'll let you go read it

Because there is a distinct power gap? There's nothing wrong with scaling low tiers to low tiers in-game. Its the same reason we dont scale everyone in Street fighter to Akuma, or everyone in DotA to Weaver. Youre so intent on downgrading LoL using your backwards logic that youre just flat out ignoring so many rules of this wiki and then accusing people of lying or being wrong even when multiple admins tell you no. You need to stop this.
 
@Weekly, okay, I can accept Udyr scaling to Lee Sin. But not for the others, since it's never stated that he fights against people like Sejuani or Volibear and matches them.

Until he actually shows off such firepower, it's meaningless.

I have read Urgot's lore, nowhere is it stated that he was at the epicentre of the explosion, that's all you and your assumptions.

And there isn't any distinct power gaps between the other champions? Especially for those whose feats don't match the ratings you're suggesting? I'm not at all intent on downgrading, if it happens it happens, I just don't want overwanked profiles on a site which is all about accurate profiles.
 
He has and it was confirmed by the dev team

Im referring to the lore of the first explosion which the one Urgot tanked is compared to

No there arent. When people who are just strong humans have tier 7 feats, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that people who can fight chracters on that level would randomly be weaker. It blatantly obvious youre attempting to downgrade them. Nothing about them is wanked. Tier 7 is extremely consistent throughut the low tiers of the verse, something youre choosing to ignore.
 
You haven't shown any proof at all.

Urgot has only been in one explosion, and it is never stated that he tanks it.

None of these are strong humans with Tier 7 feats, they are all either magically enhanced, spirits, creatures or monsters. All of the relatively human champions have no such feats. You keep accusing me of downgrading, yet you blatantly wank the human characters without any proof other than they must scale since they can fight each other in game.
 
Garen is a strong human, Lee Sin is a strong human, Katarina is a strong human, with the new lore now Kassadin is a strong human, i can go on and on about strong humans that scale to or have tier 7 feats IN THE LORE that youre just choosing to ignore for no reason other than bias. If you do not stop this now i will be forced to take further action. Consider this a warning.
 
ShrekAlmighty said:
How many times have u argued over this?
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Thi will now be the fourth time, and he still hasnt brought up anything other than the old arguments that have been debunked before
 
I've already pointed out that Garen's feat isn't applicable as he never shows it in his lore and it is a gameplay feat only. Same goes for Katarina. Lee Sin is is explicitly stated to have magical powers which ended up enhancing him in a way he didn't expect. Kassadin was also armed by various weapons which are unquantified, and we never get to see exactly how he turns into his current form. So no Tier 7 feats for humans like Graves, Garen, Miss Fortune etc, and you haven't made the greatest case for scaling all of them to the likes of Rammus or Braum.

So no, you haven't debunked anything and you keep ignoring every point I've made to keep pushing your arguments as if they were true.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
@Heinkel Thats not how jumping from 4-B to 4-A works, but dayum thats impressive
Click to expand...
What would she need to get a 4-A instead of 4-B in this instance? We might even consider the picture that she can fire multiple black hole rounds in quick succession.

At least 4-B, Likely 4-A?
 
Does that trillion~x difference calc, perchance, use the model that assumes the destruction of a star 4 light years away from the epicenter?

I don't intend to comment on it but just checking if my understanding of the cause is correct.
 
@Regis It doesnt matter if he doesnt show it in his lore because every other source depicts him having it. Once again youre trying to remove the game aspect of a video game as though it doesnt exist, youre essentially trying to scale LoL like its just a story when its not. What youre trying to do does not and will never fly here.

Every argument youve made has been debunked multiple times by multiple people including multiple admins.
 
It does matter, since the game and the cinematics based on gameplay are separate from the actual lore where he's never shown to have such powers. It is merely hinted at by Swain, but again, we don't rate champions based on hints without valid proof, considering all the Dark Stars, Aurelion Sol, Star Guardians etc who have ratings based on their actual lore, not gameplay.

Essentially now LoL has both a game and a narrative, and the two are separate as far as Riot is concerned. This was the whole point of the retcon, that they didn't have to limit gameplay and narrative to each other, and could essentially do whatever they wanted with both of them

If by debunking you mean ignoring my points then yeah, I've been 'debunked'.
 
No, it doesnt. It does not matter if they dont have those powers in the lore when they still showcase them everywhere else. This wiki does not now nor will we ever remove powers someone displayed numerous times just because they arent mentioned in the lore.

They are not and were never once stated to be seperate by Riot, and the recent events of the past two years show the contrary that lore and the game are more integrated than they ever were, something you refuse to acknowledge.
 
Yeah seems like it. The model assumes an explosion at the center of the Sun and the same explosion being able to wipe out Alpha Centauri 4.3 light years away (rather than two separate supernovas occuring at both stars in one attack, the model used in some communities). On VSB she would be 4-B.
 
Yes it does. The game itself doesn't always display a character's abilities fully, considering Ekko's ultimate ingame and lore wise is very different, and Galio's abilities, which are never shown in the lore at all save for his jump. The gameplay cinematics are just that, meant to show how the game works in a cinematic fashion, hence they use in game abilities. Compared to other cinematics, which actually portray the world of Runeterra, we can see that things are different.

Yes they are, the Bilgewater event does not prove otherwise. Just because there was a concurrent narrative released during the event doesn't make what happens in game any more canon. While they did integrate Gangplank's rework with the event, the actual games played by the player had no effect on the story Riot released.
 
I'm going to sleep so someone should make an entry for Gun Goddess Miss Fortune. The reason for its rating is pretty straightforward (black holes capable of swallowing star systems) and I doubt it will drop below 4-B even after it is released.
 
Ekko's ultimate functions identically to his in-game one except for the cooldown. LoL is a video game that has lore, cinematics, and gameplay. Unless CONTRADICTED by something, the character should be able to use the attacks in game in their lore.

You can think you haven't been debunked till the cows come home, but you only accepting an elitist view on what is canon in LoL doesn't matter to us.
 
Ekko's ult in game and in cinematics/comics are only similar in that they let him rewind time. In game, it heals him for a percentage of his health, gives off a large AOE explosion and brings him back 4 seconds. In lore, it doesn't heal him, since he still keeps his injuries when fighting the Zaun thug, he can rewind back for more than 4 seconds in his comic where he keeps rewinding time in order to try to save his friend from dying and get revenge at the same time, and it never results in an explosion when he uses it. So there are plenty of contradictions between how the ability works in game and in his stories.

It does matter when the current view used is very flawed and ignoring them just to keep certain ratings isn't what this site is about.
 
@Regis

1. It does heal him. His arm was absolutely shattered by his opponent and when he rewound it was damaged, yet functional. This shows percentage healing.

2. The explosion is meant to represent the shattering timeline. While it doesn't harm people in the cinematic, it lets you know that Chronobreak does do harm.

3. The time on the ultimate is purely gameplay mechanics. Numbers can be altered at a whim. The effect of rewinding time X amount of time is still the same.

4. No. It doesn't. The argument is basically this: you say we're wrong. We say we're right and then give reasons like why we're right. You say these reasons are not sufficient. You say we're still wrong. Repeat ad infinitum.
 
His arm is never broken, merely pinned down roughly by the metal foot. We never see him use it to rewind since he still has a free, convenient arm which isn't pinned down. Also, the ultimate never heals him, he's shown to rub his face after he rewinds from the thug's punch, he still feels it when the thug kicks him back and steps on his arm, hence him going one handed during the last fight.

To the timeline, sure. To other people, no, since it's never shown.

The effects are completely different when time is rewound, as I've stated above.

I have given sufficient reasoning as to why the current scaling system is flawed, it is just that no one really seems to understand what I'm saying, or keeps ignoring my reasoning and then calling it insufficient after the fact.
 
Yes, because it is true and it is the most important reason. This is supported by all of the current new lore, which is completely separate from the game as a whole apart from the occasional event revolving around it. Other reasons include inconsistency in scaling as some characters are rated based solely on their feats while every one else is given similar ratings due to them existing in the same game, regardless of whether they have encountered each other or not and have had similar showings to support their ratings.

I mistaken about the broken arm, but it was clearly not shattered as Assalt claims it was, and there was no visible healing that one would expect, since he never uses it in the last fight. This is consistent with him getting tired and hurt as he rewinds time.
 
@Regis that is the definition of scaling, characters having feats anc other characters who can fight them haing their power measured as comparable to those feats.

In-game Ekko doesnt completely heal himself either, so its consistent with him retaining some injuries after rewinding time mid-fight. Hell even in the lore Ekko rewinding time healed him from a would-be lethal blow from Dr. Mundo
 
We are never shown proof that the characters without feats can fight the ones who have the feats. Any such proof is only based on the in game fact that you can use any champion to kill any champion.

You are correct regarding the healing on Chronobreak. I'm sorry to both you and Assalt regarding this.
 
A small tangent, someone should add this to Udyr's profile so that people know exactly how his Spirit Guard tier is justified. The original link to the comic seems to have been removed and it isn't added on his Universe page yet.
 
That's not true. If we scaled all champs to any champion that can be killed we would have a 100% 3-B roster since anyone can kill Zoe or Aurelion.

I think saying that "these two are notable fighters in their area and should be comparable" isn't that big of a stretch. The Freljordians scale to each other. The Demacian, Noxian, and Ionian champions should too. The only guy out of his own is Kled, and he even has a speed feat showing he shouldn't be that far behind the others.
 
That's my point, we don't have that sort of scaling since it's nonsensical. And Aurelion and Zoe are only rated as such based on their lore feats and statements, not any real gameplay mechanincs or abilities involved. While others only have the following reasoning (occasionally modified): '(Can fight on-par with Garen, and similarly powerful champions)' for their ratings, which is based only on the fact that they can fight each other ingame. Only a few, mostly by region, have actually faced each other and have comparable feats.

I think that's still too vague and inaccurate, since notable fighters doesn't necessarily denote comparable strength. Ekko is a notable character, yet he would have been killed in fights and accidents (like jumping off buildings and missing the ledges) if it weren't for his Chronobreak, something shown in The Climb video. This is why I'd prefer something more clear, like 'X fought Y once' or 'X says that Y and Z are as strong as X' etc.

Kled's feat belongs to Skaarl and it's never shown that Kled has similar speed feats. Skaarl herself doesn't really face off anyone notable, and simply knowing people doesn't mean that they scale. For example, Gnar knows Anivia yet we don't scale him to her, same goes for Ashe and Lissandra (as the Ice Witch, not the princess/seer).

Kled and Yordles in general are a bit weird, since Riot hasn't really fleshed out their stories as to who they are, what Bandle City really is. We know that some of them can hide their appearances with a glamour in Ziggs' comic where Heimerdinger has a device that lets Ziggs look human.
 
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