League of Legend: Freijod characters being overrated

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I would compare them to City level at least, comparable to the other weaker beings. Lissandra and Anivia... at best Island but it would be better if they're lower. Others like Brand, Jarvan and Swain should be nerfed because they really don't deserve that scaling even if continental scaling is accepted.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I want Ashe and Sejuani to be scaled down to the limit a normal human can achieve with skills, physical training and an above-average weapon with special effects, Ashe bow for example, should be the same as a anti-material rifle or rocket launcher at most

Woah woah woah, ok now THATS major downplaying, they're far above normal humans

 

[Kodaka]

again, where they superhuman? the only different between ashe and a normal human is that her marksmanship is superhuman in level, and her weapon is powerful too, power of a weapon does not mean power of a person, a soldier holding a anti-material rifle can shoot thru and take down an unarmed armored vechice (or rather, its driver), does not mean that suddenly he can survive getting run over by said armored vechice or outrun it. same with sejuani, she is strong and above most humans, but a little below what you would call superhumans, low superhumans maybe.

 

[Kodaka]

hmm, bump? :x

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Ashe I can understand. Though Sejuani should be stronger in comparison tbh. Or at least less fragile.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I still disagree. Downgrading them to what COB proposed or even as far as MCB like every other character i could see, but changing them to just normal humans? No, absolutely not.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Yeah honestly they're still supernatural beings. So even if they are superhumans, gotta give them a high end at least. If Ashe can at least enhance the power of her shots well I think she should be MCB at least. Might be pushing it with the nerfs there Kodaka.

 

[RegisNex1232]

I don't have any problems with the downgrades, as long as they don't go to Tier 9. You could scale them to the people they've allied with for Ashe and Sejauni as a minimum (Sejauni apparently fought Olaf at one point) and maybe put Lissandra somewhere there or do as COB said. For Ashe, you can't really separate the stats of her alone and her with the bow as she's done everything with a bow and has little to no feats without it. That would be like taking away the weapons of all champions who use it (like Graves, Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, Kindred, Olaf and so on) and trying to rate them without it.

I'd still wait for Perpetual, since he wrote the ratings and I want to see the reasoning for it. If it is insufficient, then we might need to downgrade most, if not all of the Country Level champions as they all scale to Lissandra.

 

[Kodaka]

I didn't seperate her from her bow, a weapon only give offensive power, take into account her bow, she have good offensive power, but how does a weapon, how does a bow help her being faster or durable? like, could anyone explain? I don't understand it, it seem like people here think that being have good offensive power mean that everthing else must be good too, ever heard of glass cannon? last time I check, being unarmed actually help me move faster than holding an assault rilfe, and it sure does not help me tank a knife stab better.


with her bow, she should have a decent offensive power rating, but nothing else, the lores doesn't give her any feat on her physical strenght or speed, just her marksmanship.

 

[Reppuzan]

Personally, I don't think this downgrade makes any sense at all.

Lissandra has already established that she is going to flash freeze the planet once she manages to release the Watchers from their prison. If the faction leaders were THAT much weaker than her, then she would not have needed to bide her time at all. There would be no point in waiting if she could just overpower everyone with her superior ice magic. Not to mention the fact that there are champions like Brand who can scorch all of Runeterra at full power and the Ascendents like Azir and Xerath, who raised and sank an entire empire beneath the sands. One of her known rivals is Anivia, who is the embodiment of ice magic and Winter itself.

The reason she needs the army is because people like Ashe, Sejuani, and the Ascendents exist, not because she's that weak.

 

[Kodaka]

"Lissandra has already established that she is going to flash freeze the planet once she manages to release the Watchers from their prison"

could you link me to the relevant lore? and if so, that is the watcher powers, or that it the power they lend her, not her power in the present lore, the present lore that Ashe and Sej is in. I have already broke down earlier that liss herself is not that strong, she needed an army of tribemans even in old time before she defeated by "ancient hero", which should be the peak of her power, if you read Journal of Justice, Liss even have to do some political game, which would be unnecessary if she can stomp them down, and really, anyone with country level offensive power should not need army nor does the enemy army matter at all.

 

[Kodaka]

also I don't see how stronger champion of other lands who not even interested in freijod is relevant to the topic at all, and being rivals doesn't imply equal power. and even if she is that strong, it already ebtablished above that if liss were to stomp the freijod then other powerful champion wil ltake notice of her and take her down, that does not imply anything about Ashe or Sej power however.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bowser, King Dedede, Ganondorf, Frieza...

 

[Kodaka]

Bowser, King Dedede, Ganondorf...

ok, I rest that case, but that does not defeat my other points however.

 

[Reppuzan]

Her selection quote is literally, word-by-word:

"I will bury the world in ice."

Brand's selection quote is:

"Ready to set the world on fire?"

So on top of both them claiming to be able to raze the entire world with their powers, they're listed as rivals, indicating that they have clashed in the past.

Why are Rivals relevant? Put it this way. If you're able to stomp another person into oblivion, can you call them a rival? Of course not. Rivals are someone's peers, someone who can sufficiently challenge their power/rule enough to be threatening, thus implying that they're at least relatively close in power if not equally matched. Granted, Brand's current body is much weaker than his claim (considering the fact that he was overtaken by Demacian forces), but the point stands that there is some credibility to their claims.

If Liss plans to conquer the world, of course other champions are relevant. After all, they're the strongest beings on the face of Runeterra and the biggest obstacles to her conquest. Naturally, Ascendents like Azir and Nasus will stand in her way, as well as monsters like Cho'Gath and the Iceborn sisters.

 

[Kodaka]

you know, I actually have a super weapon that could burst the earth right now but I will wait until people get on mar before I use it.

I already broke down earlier that it could very much be a boast, if she haven't done it yet, mean that she, at least, currently can't with her power, same with Brand, there been plenty of real life people have boast to conquer the world or even greater things too, doesn't mean that they can.

Rivals in league is more like enemy, or people they hates, Kalista hates betrayer, her rivals list is chock full of them, doesn't mean that she consider them to be someone of equal power, same with Tahm and the Yordles, Kindred and the undead.

and what out of place the most is Ashe and Sej, their tier, at most, should be 8-A, like most humanoid with a weapon in league.

 

[Reppuzan]

1) You still haven't addressed the fact that she's at least as powerful as beings who can raise and sink entire empires.

2) Fair enough. But do remember that the majority of rivals in League are relatively comparable in power (i.e. Leona and Diana).

3) Do remember that True Ice has enormous magical properties and can empower someone simply by having them touch it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I already broke down earlier that it could very much be a boast, if she haven't done it yet, mean that she, at least, currently can't with her power, same with Brand, there been plenty of real life people have boast to conquer the world or even greater things too, doesn't mean that they can.

There are literally tabs separating her current power and her full power, you know that right?

 

[Kodaka]

1) where is that mentioned? I don't think they even as much as know eachother in lore

3)To what extent is unknown, the feat that whoever use them do with it is unproven to be country level powerful.

 

[Kodaka]

And I will press this again, I made this mainly to adress power level of Ashe and Sej, even if Liss were that strong, as adressed above, doesn't mean that she could just stomp them over nor it imply Ashe and Sej are as strong as her. .

 

[WeeklyBattles]

1) where is that mentioned? I don't think they even as much as know eachother in lore

Xerath's ascension literally sank all of the Shuriman empire. Fun fact, Xerath is more powerful than both Nasus and Renekton and overpowered both at the same time, and Nasus and Renekton fought Brand in lore

 

[Kodaka]

I already broke down earlier that it could very much be a boast, if she haven't done it yet, mean that she, at least, currently can't with her power, same with Brand, there been plenty of real life people have boast to conquer the world or even greater things too, doesn't mean that they can.

There are literally tabs separating her current power and her full power, you know that right?

ok, they I will rest on that, but that also mean that Ashe and Sej is fighting Liss at her current power (not that they did in lore), which is, not that strong, not country level strong at least.

 

[Kodaka]

1) where is that mentioned? I don't think they even as much as know eachother in lore

Xerath's ascension literally sank all of the Shuriman empire. Fun fact, Xerath is more powerful than both Nasus and Renekton and overpowered both at the same time, and Nasus and Renekton fought Brand in lore

and that relate to liss power how? I asked how those being powerful affect list power, who not even know eachother in lore.

a reminder tho:

And I will press this again, I made this mainly to adress power level of Ashe and Sej, even if Liss were that strong, as adressed above, doesn't mean that she could just stomp them over nor it imply Ashe and Sej are as strong as her. .

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ascendants, Darkin, and Iceborn are stated to be relatively equal to each other and are among the most powerful forces on Runeterra. That's how their power relates to Lissandra.

 

[Kodaka]

Ascendants, Darkin, and Iceborn are canonically stated to be relatively equal to each other and are among the most powerful forces on Runeterra. That's how their power relates to Lissandra.

please cite a piece of lore for this. and as I said,

Kodaka wrote:
And I will press this again, I made this mainly to adress power level of Ashe and Sej, even if Liss were that strong, as adressed above, doesn't mean that she could just stomp them over nor it imply Ashe and Sej are as strong as her. .

their tier, at most, should be 8-A, like most humanoid with a weapon in league.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

You guys realize.... That since they never met... It's not as if it's an instant they can compare in power? Either of them could be massively stronger than the other without us knowing.

Besides, again. Words. Badass boasts. Makes them look more impressive. And again, no given time frame. It could take years for htem to do either...

Also mind linking me to that Brand comparison thing?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

From the Ascended's page of the LoLWiki:

In the League of Legends universe, the Ascended's power rivals those of the Iceborn, the Frozen Watchers and the Darkin.

And from the Iceborn page:

The Iceborn are among the most powerful entities portrayed in the League of Legends universe, being comparable to other ancient races such as the Ascendant, Frozen Watchers and Darkin.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

From Renekton's Background:

During the reign of the Emperor Azir, word arrived that a magical being of fire had escaped the magical sarcophagus that bound it in its underground prison. It had laid waste to a Shuriman town, before fleeing across the desert to the east. Renekton and his brother Nasus set forth to recapture this legendary foe. While they were absent, the young emperor, guided by the manipulations of his magus, Xerath, attempted to join their ranks and become one of the Ascended. The results were catastrophic.

 

[Kodaka]

I could argue that it only describe liss at her full power, and it said comparable, not the same, even amongst the ascended, Xerath is more powerful than the other 3 combined, no?

and one again, I will bring up Ashe and Sej, they should at most be 8-A, agree?

 

[RegisNex1232]

Liss at her full power is apparently 6-A, Multi-Continent level and is normally 6-B, Country level. So if Ashe and Sejauni fought her, or if Liss considered them a threat, then they should be fine where they are, of if you insist on downgrading them, at least Island level, 6-C.

 

[Reppuzan]

and one again, I will bring up Ashe and Sej, they should at most be 8-A, agree?

You still have yet to provide a reason to make us believe that Ashe and Sejuani aren't able to fight on par with Lissandra despite being faction leaders and descendants of the Iceborn themselves who are explicitly armed with the same weapons used against Lissandra and the Watchers hundreds of years ago.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I could argue that it only describe liss at her full power, and it said comparable, not the same, even amongst the ascended, Xerath is more powerful than the other 3 combined, no?

and one again, I will bring up Ashe and Sej, they should at most be 8-A, agree?

Well, more powerful than Nasus and Renekton combined, he never fought all three at the same time, but if we're using full power Lissandra as a comparison then Aatrox and the four Ascendants would get a pretty big upgrade.

 

[Kodaka]

I have already explained, Liss is not that strong currently, I have provided reasons why they are normal, which Ashe and her people being were afraid of bandit before banding with Tryndamere, the fact that they shown no superhuman feats in lore, fact that Liss literally have did nothing of notes in term of pure power after coming back, her full power might have been strong, but right now, she's much weaker.

and most of all, as I have said, offensive power is entirely unrelated to defensive power, just because she can do a big attack doesn't mean that a much weaker attack can't kill her, such as Ashe and Sej attack, Liss certainly can't instantly freeze the entire world in an instant even back before defated by heroes, as lore text mention she swept across the land with her tribemans.

 

[Kodaka]

and really, all my texts above have directly explain why they are normals, how about you refute them like I have been refuting everyone replied here?

 

[Reppuzan]

1) Writers have no idea how to power-scale. Spider-Man is somehow threatened by low-caliber bullets when he can lift parts of the Daily Bugle and regularly takes punches from people on par with the Avengers.

2) If they're so normal then they wouldn't be able to take their attacks of their fellow champions, much less go to war with each other. Do remember that Ashe is armed with the bow of Avarosa herself, who fought with Lissandra in battle and is more than likely to have taken her blows.

 

[Kodaka]

Because they don't take attack from others? in game of course they have to take attack from others as they have HP and balance, but in lore, no, they could just dogde or deflect eachother attack, which is so common sense in fiction that I shouldn't need to explain, there is many strong character in fiction who fight hundreds of people at once but could be easily killed by a mook if they just stand still and take their attack.

 

[Reppuzan]

Or... they could actually take the attack since it's highly probable that Avarosa and Lissandra got into massive ice slinging fests when their armies clashed and it's highly improbable that they both dodged every attack in the middle of a freaking battlefield.

Ashe obviously scales to the both of them.

 

[Kodaka]

they are leader of their armies, which mean that they should be more protected than others, both have range, Sej wear armor which could easily take normal weapons.

also let be real, I could show you countless fiction works with leader type (or hell, skilled general/soldier type) character dodge and delfect every single attack in a battle field, but could have easily been killed by any normal weapons. I rate Ashe and Sej as ones with exceptional skills, it not even remotely farfectched that they can do that.

and really, now you guys jsut pulling out hypothetical situation out of your ass now? in lore, they literally have never fought eachother.

also let me point out how flawed this is.

"1) Writers have no idea how to power-scale. Spider-Man is somehow threatened by low-caliber bullets when he can lift parts of the Daily Bugle and regularly takes punches from people on par with the Avengers."

this is example of a power level shown in lore which contradict eachother, I shown example of both defensive power being normal, i.e being afraid of bandit, which in itself also prove non-countrylevel offensive power, as is fending off a band of assassins. their is no other lore evidence contradict it but baseless granduer conjecture.

 

[Reppuzan]

That would be sound logic... if Freljordians didn't have a track record of leading from the front. Tryndamere and Gragas charge straight into battle, as does pretty much everyone on Sejuani's side (she's a friggin Tank for crying out loud). Ashe (and likely her ancestor, Avarosa) is prone to leading her own archers into battle.

Need I remind you that Archers and Magicians tend to have rather similar effective ranges, and that Lissandra was only defeated by the might of "Ancient Heroes", implying that only a select few were able to face her in direct combat... meaning Avarosa and her strongest allies.

 

[Kodaka]

ok then? it almost like you didn't read this.

"also let be real, I could show you countless fiction works with leader type (or hell, skilled general/soldier type) character dodge and delfect every single attack in a battle field, but could have easily been killed by any normal weapons. I rate Ashe and Sej as ones with exceptional skills, it not even remotely farfectched that they can do that. "

do you really need an example?

and really, now you guys jsut pulling out hypothetical situation out of your ass now? in lore, they literally have never fought eachother.