League of Legend: Freijod characters being overrated

[Reppuzan]

You're using a real life example.

I'm using an in-lore example.

Yes, they're commanders, but there's no rule that says that they have to sit in the back. The majority of Freljordians are melee fighters and have a habit of charging into battle.

It's like you didn't read what I said.

 

[Kodaka]

where is lore do they fight eachother? also what I said couldn't be further from IRL, in fiction works, wars movies, fantasy movies, how many main character do you see in middle of battle on the front line and doing well? Troy? 300? LoTR? that just off the top of my head, characters in those movies could easily killed by any weapons. as I said, I rate Ashe and Sej as ones with exceptional skills, it not even remotely farfectched that they can do that.

still pulling out hypothetical situation out of your ass? and how about you actually read what I said instead of skim over?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Frozen Watchers: A fearsome and powerful race of creatures that have been deliberately removed from the histories of Freljord by the Ice Witch's unseen hand, these creatures of frost and ice claimed domain over the ancient times of the Freljord. They are the makers of the Iceborn who said to have served them faithfully in exchange of the vast powers granted unto to them. Their reign of terror was only halted by the rebellion started by Avarosa and the Watchers were ultimately impaled by their own sword. Their return is paved today by their ever-faithful Seeker, Lissandra.

Ashe is Avarosa's ancestor and has her bow, and by extension her powers, the same powers that were used to defeat Lissandra and the Watchers.

 

[Kodaka]

yeah, but where does it say that said power is country level? and as I said, offensive power in unrelated to defensive power, Liss could be defeated with people and weapon with attacks weaker than her own, Liss own country level "attacks" is also not a destructive "attack". Ashe bow only help her offensive power, as I have stated so many time already. at this rate, I could make canned respone and it will be valid counter argument against you guys.

Ashe with her bow have not shown any country level feat yet.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

I don't understand the obsession with downgrading characters that are already relatively low on the power scale because you want to hold them to some strict lore based standard. We have plenty of game verse here where we don't just only go by cutscenes and whatnot, why is this some special standard to be applied to league characters.

 

[Kodaka]

if Country level is low then you guys must have some strange standard, for human-born character of fresh and blood.

and because in league, we literally have a stars creator, war god who fight against army on his own, god of death, cosmic horror fight in the same game space as a fist punching guy. there used to be lore justification for that, and the previous lores mention handicapping OP character. but it all been scraped and no replacement lore been out since.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

if Country level is low then you guys must have some strange standard, for human-born character of fresh and blood.
and because in league, we literally have a stars creator, war god who fight against army on his own, god of death, cosmic horror fight in the same game space as a fist punching guy.

That's like saying that all characters in fiction who were born as normal people should not ever get a higher rating than super human... which just isn't the case at all.

 

[Kodaka]

if Country level is low then you guys must have some strange standard, for human-born character of fresh and blood.
and because in league, we literally have a stars creator, war god who fight against army on his own, god of death, cosmic horror fight in the same game space as a fist punching guy.

That's like saying that all characters in fiction who were born as normal people should not ever get a higher rating than super human... which just isn't the case at all.

I'm not saying that, and that beside the point anyway, in lore they shown no superhuman feat, feats they did is what skilled human with a superior weapon can do, the lore mention nothing other than they are, indeed, skilled people.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Man i go off to actually play League and this is the chaos I come back to.... Anyway Weekly.

Saw the comparisons but... they're in the Trivia page... So is it actually concrete there because the wiki can be adjusted any time. Where's the actual definite proof that the comparison was outright said? Otherwise it could just be someone claiming that they're that strong.

From the looks of the background they searched for the magical being but never had any evidence that they actually fought it. Renekton and Nasus could have just been chasing them down. And rechecking the sinking island feat...

And again being the embodiment of Winter isn't really much as Saikou had explained on the ice storm feat. And it doesn't necessarily mean that Ashe and Sejuani are country level immediately because they fought Lissandra. They have to have used their wits before to take them on or again, Lissandra could be holding back and planning things. Waiting for the perfect moment to strike and not intending to kill them yet.

Also would that mean Tryndamere and Gragas are on an equally high level if they lead? I don't agree with Ashe and Sejuani being downplayed to even humans but really, Kodaka, even I disagree with that. Give that up and instead focus on what actually matters. Aka the unreliant continental scaling. The reason why everyone keeps putting them that is because no one would focus on those feats that actually needed to be nerfed.

Edit - And again I point to slowly freezing or roasting the planet with an unknown timeframe.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Sorry for double posting but they keep calling Shruima an empire but.... It seems that only the city section sank while everything else was left to waste by the fight with Nasus, Renekton and Xerath. And the unbound power of the Sun caused the destruction of the Empire so if he only got some of it.... Sure he might've gotten stronger but if his influence has been rejected well it could mean something.

Gonna be sleeping in a bit hopefully I can debate better

 

[Reppuzan]

Do remember that they all scale to Anivia (who is Lissandra's rival in the control of True Ice) who controls enough energy to start an Ice Age upon her death (when said energy would run wild).

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Right. I suppose despite never meeting each other and how no lore showcases which can be stronger aside from the trivia helps us there?

Also context for flash freeze please. And the Ice Age. Just like before the lack of timeframe is against you.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Still not seeing the point of trying to claim only non game related feats.... in a game verse... are valid.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Yeah, where's my FTL Tunnel Workers for GLA or Hypersonic RPG Troopers?

All kidding aside, it should be a healthy mix of both

 

[Reppuzan]

Also context for flash freeze please. And the Ice Age. Just like before the lack of timeframe is against you.

"The beginnings and ends of her eternal cycle always heralded great change, from the calming of the raging storms to the ebb and flow of ice ages. It is said that when a cryophoenix dies, an era ends, and when she is reborn, a new era begins."

The Ice Age starts upon her death, meaning that the surrounding climate of Runeterra drops dramatically after she takes her last breath. That should be enough of a timeframe.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Herald. Meaning signify. Isn't that more like a situation where a natural lifespan of a being signifies change? Kinda like how birds fly south for Winter?

And again, it just says calming of the raging storms and the flow of ice ages. The only definitive thing is when they start but not when they finish forming/ending.

 

[Kodaka]

tbh, it seem like you guys are too used to discussing ridiculously overpowered characters that the concept of weak, but skilled or glass cannon don't exist anymore. in fiction there been countless stories of heroes of flesh and blood slaying dragon/monster/evil of far greater power than themselves by pure skill and wit.

these are some helpful links

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeakButSkilled

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlassCanno

 

[Reppuzan]

Except, you know, the fact that Sejuani and her ancestor fought with flails and had to have gone against Lissandra at close range along with the fact that "ancient heroes" like Avarosa were the only ones able to fight Lissandra at her peak, meaning that it's highly probable that the two exchanged blows.

 

[Kodaka]

or they could just dodge eacother attacks like most do in stories, even at close range.

 

[Reppuzan]

Sejuani says it herself:

"I will not hide behind another's shield."

If her ancestor was anything like her (heavily implied by the viking at the Howling Abyss), Sejuani and her ancestor were more than likely to charge into the fray and just bat away and tank everything that came her way.

Besides, you're trying to tell me that they dodged every attack they slung at each other when every single one of the Sisters held enough power to start blizzards and flash freezes wide areas of land. Right.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I missed the notification again. Anyway, I sincerely doubt Sejuani is a glass cannon. That said Lissandra could've been weaker back then so it would've explained why they could've survived against her power.

 

[Reppuzan]

I HIGHLY doubt that Lissandra was weaker back then. If anything, she would have been stronger since she had far more control over Freljord due to the backing of the Watchers.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

her power could be growing that time. And wouldn't that mean Watchers + Lissandra is stronger than Lissandra without Watchers? But then again that's kinda speculative on what power level she has on the past. Either way are we at least lowering them from multi-continent?

 

[Reppuzan]

If anything, Lissandra has more control over True Ice and Black Ice than anyone else in the cast and was taking on both Avarosa and Serylda (Sejuani's ancestor) at the same time. So this scenario is highly unlikely.

You're using useless speculation to try and prove a point despite Weekly's statements. I'm not convinced at all.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Can someone make a new thread? This one is kinda long.

Also, I'll just focus on Ashe for this comment.

Ashe's tier is 6-B. Country level. ie, either can destroy a country, or can hurt people with that level of durability. Nowhere in the canon will anyone find that Ashe ever gets near this. Minimum tier is 10-A (peak human), max is 7-C (Town level).

Attack Potency: Country Level (on par with Lissandra & Sejuani). What is this. This is supposed to scale off Lissandra's durability, and Ashe hasn't even fought Lissandra directly (as far as I'm aware). Nor has Lissandra ever shown this level of durability. There's a very good reason why she seeks allies (Trundle & co) instead of soloing the entire Freljord. The only thing that Lissandra has going for her is her Iceborn heritage (which is supposed to be comparable to the Ascended and others). Another note is that on Lissandra's page, her feats for durability was being able to take hits from Ashe and Sejuani. WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?

Speed: Supersonic, with High Hypersonic+ reactions and combat speed. Besides the parens stuff being gameplay only, this would make the assasins chasing her quite fast, almost like a fantasy DBZ sayian saga with those levels,

Lifting Strength: reasonable considering the Iceborn heritage, but the feat can be explained by other reasons, like the special bow that Ashe uses. Can be technically calculated by draw weight of the bow, but once again, can be explained away for various reasons.

Striking Strength: ZJ. Small/Large Country Level. With this sort of strength, Ashe doesn't need the bow. She could literally put her foot down, and level the entire Freljord. Easy Freljord solo.

Durability: Country Level. Apparently, this is only because of Lissandra. Lissandra never showed this level of power, and DEFINITELY DID NOT use this level of power against Ashe. The two haven't even fought, yet she gets this far, Also, those assassins must be very powerful if Ashe had to run from them. If you scaled the assassins to all residents of the Freljord, then they would easily conquer Runeterra. Once again, fantasy DBZ sayian saga.

Standard Equipment: Besides the special bow and Ice arrows, all else is gameplay. Either state as such, or remove it completely. Besides, how would Ashe, a archer, use the Infinity Edge? (or much less get it, considering its origins in a far away country)

Notable Attacks/Techniques: why is a lolking Ashe strategy guide on vsbattle wikia? Seriously, please state that this is gamplay stuff, rewrite it, or remove completely.

Also, someone define wanked in this wikia's context, because I'm not sure if it's the right word to describe some of Ashe's stuff on the wikia.

Also, I tried to make this before, but all the text just disappeared when I tried to post it. The original was longer. fml

 

[Reppuzan]

Since you obviously haven't been reading any of my points or Weekly's points. Let me reiterate them again.

1) Ashe's Country level AP comes form the fact that she's scaled to her ancestor, Avarosa, who fought Lissandra at her peak. The bow and magic Ashe uses are the very same used to defeat Lissandra., who is Anivia's rival. Anivia herself has enough power to start Ice Ages if she loses control of it (i.e. upon her death) and controls the very aspect of winter in Freljord. Lissandra and the Watchers also scale to people like Xerath due to author statements, with the latter sinking all of Shurima upon his Ascension.

2) Everyone and their mother can dodge magical lightning and laser beam attacks in addition to fighting alongside champions like Bard, who has achieved such speeds. Thus Ashe gets it too as one of the most prominent Champions of the League.

3) Lifting Strength is validated in the description. Besides, she's still holding and nocking the arrow.

4) Striking Strength includes impact force from any physical attack, including projectiles.

5) Avarosa and Serylda (Sejuani's ancestor) went head-to-head with Lissandra, who is able to fling blizzards around with the same intensity as Anivia. It's HIGHLY unlikely that they dodged every attack. As Avarosa's descendant and the inheritor of herpower, Ashe gets this too.

7) It was agreed some time ago that Champions would get the items they purchased most on their Standard Equipment list, but I can't remember where.

8) This I can agree with.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Said Ice Age also doesn't have a set time frame.... Also argued the case for how it's not as if all the power of Shurima was given to Xerath from his lore. Not to mention, rechecking the lore now, from the looks of it Lissandra orchestrated the event and it's implied that she backstabbed her, just like her other sisters. So one thing it could mean is that Lissandra wasn't as powerful as you think she was and that Avarosa was stronger of the two with how she took out the Iceborn, whose exact power is a bit vague unless you go freaking clinging to the continental feats all over again even though we aren't given time frames for it. Even if we accept that fact, it doesn't necessarily mean Avarosa's entire power is given to Ashe either. And don't you remember a good chunk of the lore becoming inconsistent and becoming non-canon?

And how does Ashe scale from her ancestors again when she can be stronger than her? Also again, why does Swain scale off of them when he's more of a tactician and a trickster and the only thing he really was 'strongest of' was Noxus?

Define laser beams. Is it the ones where Lux gives you a friendly warning light before she shoots out the mega beam of death that is far too instant for anyone to dodge? Viktor's laser that is also instant and if he starts it on a stationary character it's impossible to dodge and the only way to dodge is by moving to the side? And last I checked stuff like lightning is still difficult to dodge and no one has really outrunned lightning in game. Not to mention that one attempt to scale the speed for League ended up showing their inability to dodge Garen's Demacia ult.

Can't argue with 3 and 4.

From the looks of it.... no, they trumped the Iceborns, and then Lissandra backstabbed them. Otherwise what need would she possibly have on engineering their deaths when she could've taken them down up front. Hell what would she need an army for otherwise? Just like Swain she's a planner and a strategist and can't take over the world with pure power. At most I agree with the high end on League (Bard and Sol aside) being country, but not freaking continental due to how Vague the timelines are.

Aren't the items also based on quotes? Though we don't have a specified limit.

 

[Reppuzan]

1) You're once again clinging to useless speculation when the fact of the matter is that the Three Sisters went to war with each other. They did fight and they did clash. If you want proof, the Viking at the Howling Bridge outright says that they threw The Watchers into the abyss there, meaning that the climactic battle for control occured on that bridge. As for the Ice Age part, you also seemed to miss the part that the Ice Age is thought to start upon her death and ends with her rebirth, since the Age flows (creeps in) and ebbs (creeps out) upon her death and rebirth respectively. Even if there isn't a specific timeframe, the fact hat it start and endss with her death and rebirth (which are very short timeframes) should be more than sufficient. Not to mention the fact that you still haven't debunked the scaling to the other powerful entities of Valoran. The Lore may be iffy in some areas, but the battle of the Three Sisters is core to Freljord's identity and hasn't changed through the entirety of the game's history, so I highly doubt it's questionable. There's also the fact that in Bard's lore, the Watchers and Lissandra were said to have covered all of Valoran in glaciers.

2) You seemed to be missing the part about Ashe's bow being the very same bow that has the same tremendous power that Avarosa used to beat The Watchers.

5) Of course they have delays in game. It's for the player's convenience. In all likelihood, the actual travel speed is closer to their real life counterparts, given that Swain actually had to intercept Lux's beam rather than sidestep it in the Dominion trailer . Not to mention the fact that everyone is able to fight on par with Bard, who ascend into space in thirteen seconds.

6) You're using useless speculation without evidence. Yes, Avarosa started a rebellion, but they went to war. They didn't backstab or poison the Watchers or Lissandra, they fought in combat and threw the Watchers into the abyss themselves and forced Lissandra into hiding. They had the last stand on the bridge with Avarosa and Lissandra clashing.

"The final stand against the Watchers took place on the bridge crossing over the Howling Abyss. Many Iceborn died, but in the end the Watchers were overrun and thrown howling into the abyss..."

Certainly doesn't sound like a simple backstabbing to me.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

From the way Lissandra explained the dialogue it seems as if she has little participation in the fight itself. But even then, I don't deny that you can scale them off of each other. What I find ridiculous is how if they really did have continental feats there they would've wiped out everything. Of course you can argue it's Attack Potency, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they were unleashing their all there too in case that bridge breaks. And makes me wonder about the immortality-giving thing that Lissandra states....

That's one tough bridge by the way.

I explained above before which you ignored:

The beginnings and ends of her eternal cycle always heralded great change, from the calming of raging storms to the ebb and flow of ice ages. It is said that when the cryophoenix dies, an era ends; and when she is reborn, a new era begins.

The weather change is more based on 'herald'. Aka like gophers or groundhogs heralding the change of weather. So we can't really base it on that. Otherwise we have weather manipulating gophers....

Read it. It is impressive. If it weren't for the fact that it happened on the past and like before we are given little time frame and each of them have separately done that so it could be a total of that. But it's not as if everything was frozen. The likely scenario is the continuous formation of glaciers in mountains. Are we to believe that they even froze Shurima when no other references were done there in lore? And it might've been just gathering a weather that could've caused that.

2) So basically it's the only thing that gives Ashe power and her glass canon status?

5) You mean react to the laser after he saw the light pointed at him? One thing about League that is concrete? Lux is always so kind to give you a warning light before she kills you with an instant beam of death. And the only ones who can dodge it are the ones who have already moved out of the way before it fires. Which says something about their reaction speed. Need I point you to that Garen falling sword being too fast for anyone to see despite definitely not moving at the speed of light? I've argued this before my friend. You should check out the League speed revison.

Oh I believe you misunderstood me. I was referring to Lissandra backstabbing them afterwards. They definitely fought in a war and I believe in their scaling, but I don't believe in Lissandra's power being as comparable to the other Watchers if she had to rely to such tricks when faced alone with her. Look below for more about that Lore feat

I can't argue with that then. On the lore thing.

Then why does Lissandra need to engineer her death and plan it so much?

Lissandra engineered the death of her sister Avarosa, the true queen of Freljord, although what transpired is known only by the Ice Witch herself. She was buried beneath a cairn with her true ice bow. The grave was marked with a single rune: Avarosa. This grave and legacy would later be discovered by her descendant and play a very important part in shaping the current Freljord.

Why did she have to go with so much planning? And from the way it shows it's ambiguous on how powerful or if they really fought. From the way it seems she tricked Avarosa too, sealing her after her demise. And it's really implied that she used deceit to win against her. Something that Lissandra is quite famous for. What I don't agree with is the uncalled for Continental feat and how Lissandra is unlikely to be on that level nor country if she really had to resort to such tricks.

Would argue more but gotta go to Otafest. May comment time to time though.

 

[Reppuzan]

1) AoE doesn't always equal AP. Let me give you an example. Wally West (The Flash) can use his speed to punch with all the force of a white dwarf star. Does he level the planet? Of course not. The worst he does is level Mt. Rushmore. Certainly he's only Mountain level, right? But he isn't. Therefore the whole "bridge should have been busted if they were really that strong" argument holds no weight.

2) But Anivia is not a gopher. She is a cryophoenix, the embodiment of winter itself. It only makes sense that all of the energy is coming from her rather than some outside source.

3) Like I said, it is highly unlikely that Avarosa dodged all of Lissandra's attacks. You can't keep bringing up the Glass Cannon argument when she and Serylda went head to head with her.

4) You want to argue speeds? Take it up with the calc team. I'm done talking about this since you refuse to accept calcs that they modified and eidted for accuracy and are thus pretty damn meticulous.

5) We don't know how Lissandra did Avarosa in after the war, so it's pointless to speculate about it when they did in fact fight back then. Was Avarosa assassinated? Perhaps. But we simply don't know. You can't make assumptions when so many details are missing.

6) Lissandra specializes in deceit, but she is also the last ally of the Watchers and the leader of hte Frostguard. The vast majority of Champions did not exist before the present time. In addition to making accomodations for the Watchers, she has to make plans to deal with all of the other powerful Champions, like Swain, The Ascended, and the Celestials. Of course she would want an army to deal with all of them.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Since you obviously haven't been reading any of my points or Weekly's points. Let me reiterate them again.
1) Ashe's Country level AP comes form the fact that she's scaled to her ancestor, Avarosa, who fought Lissandra at her peak. The bow and magic Ashe uses are the very same used to defeat Lissandra., who is Anivia's rival. Anivia herself has enough power to start Ice Ages if she loses control of it (i.e. upon her death) and controls the very aspect of winter in Freljord. Lissandra and the Watchers also scale to people like Xerath due to author statements, with the latter sinking all of Shurima upon his Ascension.

2) Everyone and their mother can dodge magical lightning and laser beam attacks in addition to fighting alongside champions like Bard, who has achieved such speeds. Thus Ashe gets it too as one of the most prominent Champions of the League.

3) Lifting Strength is validated in the description. Besides, she's still holding and nocking the arrow.

4) Striking Strength includes impact force from any physical attack, including projectiles.

5) Avarosa and Serylda (Sejuani's ancestor) went head-to-head with Lissandra, who is able to fling blizzards around with the same intensity as Anivia. It's HIGHLY unlikely that they dodged every attack. As Avarosa's descendant and the inheritor of herpower, Ashe gets this too.

7) It was agreed some time ago that Champions would get the items they purchased most on their Standard Equipment list, but I can't remember where.

8) This I can agree with.

Thanks for pointing out a few things for me. I still see some flaws, though.

Ok, just reread Ashe's background, and now i gotta rewrite this.

1) I understand about the bow's power (not so sure about magic though), but the thing is, you're scaling Ashe to her ancestor. Basically, when Ashe grabs her ancestor's bow, latent power is awakened in Ashe. However, we have no way of making sure that Ashe is legit as powerful as her ancestor was. Note that the assassin arguement is rendered null & void: Ashe awakens her powers when she grabbed the bow. Also, Anniva's ability to start/stop the ice age doesn't really mean much in terms of durability, though I have no idea why it's relevant. Xerath is a special case of the ascended, as he 1) corrupted the process and 2) combined it with his own magical prowess, thus magnifying his power. If you wanna compare/contrast power levels, you're going to need to use it on the more normal examples, ie Nasus / Renekton. Azir is another special case as well.

2) This is gameplay. Please don't confuse canon (story, etc.) with the game (heavily distorted for gameplay reasons). By this logic, Teemo (Satan himself a pipsqueak Yordle) can kill Aurelion Sol (A celestial dragon that casually creates stars). Also, with that level of speed, Ashe would easily be able to run through the entire Freljord in less than a day, and probably would be untouchable with that speed (speedblitzing, anyone?).

3) Not saying Lifting Strength is wrong; but the point still stands: The bow itself has power, and Ashe now has powers of her own; remember that she's creating these arrows out of thin air, what's to say that these arrows aren't being used with magic to enhance them / make them easier to use?

4) That helps clarify that. Unfortunately, it still doesn't explain how her arrows are able to easily devastate the entire Freljord, yet it's still in one piece. Remember, ZJ = Country level.

5) We're 100% sure that Ashe inherited the powers of her ancestors. We're NOT 100% sure that Ashe is just as powerful as her ancestor, however. Thus, while Ashe's not at human level durability, we can't safely put her at the level of her ancestor, and she has no durability feats of her own. Also, where does it say that Lissandra can throw around blizzards as powerful as Anniva's? Never saw that before.

6 (not 7, you missed this number) ) GAMEPLAY MECHANICS X1000. THE CLOSEST YOU'LL EVER GET TO THIS IS GETTING ITEMS ORIGINATING FROM THEIR HOME COUNTRY, AND EVEN THEN, ONLY ITEMS IN LINE WITH WHAT THEY DO (Braum with Frozen Heart?) There are so many arguements against starting items, I don't know why you try. Also, the standard items thing 1) no longer exists for starting items (I think doran's items have been removed) 2) are dynamic, which is something we can't have here, and 3) were posted in some other thread for lol debating I think.

7 (see 6) ) lol, idk y this is even on the wikia

 

[Reppuzan]

1) So you're implying that Ashe is nowhere near as powerful as Lissandra if though she leads one of the factions and can go toe-to-toe with Sejuani who is Serylda's descendant and is also a threat to Lissandra. Right.

2) So you're saying we have some champions that are SO SLOW that they'd get blitzed before they react. Subsonic Champs FTW! I find that hard to believe. Aurelion Sol is the extreme example since he's on a power scale that far exceeds any other Champion in the League outside of the Dark Star Thresh. Obviously they wouldn't scale, but it's certainly reasonable to scale to champions that are of a lower paygrade like Bard.

3) You also have no indicationt that this is the case. Plus she was shown nocking the arrow herself in the original cinematic trailer. Granted, it wasn't drawn nearly as large as it is in game, but my point stands.

4) You didn't read my AP =/= AoE statement above.

5) Like I said, if she was that much weaker, she would not have gained the respect of Anivia, would not be a threat to Lissandra, and would not be able to fight alongside her husband who is going after Aatrox, one of the Darkin.

6) Take it up with ThePerpetual for all I care. It was his idea.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Okay, this thread is just going in circles right now. I'm closing it.