Large TES Acausality Revision.

[SITHISIT]

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/78sugi/scan_on_fanuithen_saying_the_daedric_princes_are/

so i went around asking about this

"As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion"

And according to something else in the thread, someone said all original spirits are unbound from Aka's law. That is cause and effect.

tl;dr anyone who counts as an original spirit and anybody higher should be acausal.


oh and btw Ant to spare you some time and effort I'll chop the entire Revision up into some sections. Such as, Divines first (ill list who are Divines) Daedric Princes, then finally beings who transcend

 

[Shazam121]

We already went over this in an earlier thread and never reached a consensus. So I don't see any reason to rehash it.

 

[Antvasima]

I will inform Sheoth about this thread.

 

[Sheoth]

After reading this and the earlier thread, It seems pretty straightforward with the wording they used that they are acausal beings. Note the wording explicitly says they are above "cause", which if said alone could be subject to scrutiny, but see how it also says consequence immediately after it. From the way the sentence is structured, "consequence" is likey used to mean the effect immediately after the cause, in the same sense as "consequence for ones actions". Here is also the definition of consequence if I am not believed (#2), and you can see that it makes more sense when read back over.

In conclusion, I think they are being very obvious in what they are trying to imply, and that this should be sufficient for an upgrade, but possibly only for the Daedra and above, as the Aedra are not really mentioned anywhere from what I saw.

These are all just my own thoughts, however.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you.

If somebody makes a list of the exact titles of allthe pages that need to be updated, I can use a script to temporarily unlock them.

 

[Antvasima]

However, how does this fit with Akatosh being rated as Multiverse level+ due to having influence over all the infinite realms of Oblivion?

 

[Sheoth]

Akatosh still influences oblivion, and time is still present in it, it's just the Princes themselves are above it and can change the way it affects their realms.

[Chamberlain Haskill says, "Oh, of course, 'Doyen,' because assuaging the grief of mortals is so important to me. Let me be clear: inhabitants of the Shivering Isles are affected by Time, but we are not subject to it. We are subjects of Lord Sheogorath, who subjects us to whatever subjects he is in the mood to subjudicate. Because Time is subjective."]

It doesn't break any established laws from what I can see.

Also as for the list, if SITHISIT would be willing to make it, that would be helpful. If he can't make the list for you, however, I can, but it will have to be later tonight as I have to go to work soon.

 

[Shazam121]

This causality business seems to be a case of locations. As in they are only acausal when they are in Oblivion or Aetherius, causality is enforced in Mundus by Akatosh and the other Aedra.

 

[Shazam121]

However, how does this fit with Akatosh being rated as Multiverse level+ due to having influence over all the infinite realms of Oblivion?

I think if we are going to use scaling it might be better to scale the gods from Peryite, his "feat" seems much simpler than trying to make sense of the mess that is Akatosh.

"The Book Of The Daedra" has the following to say about Peryite: "Peryite, whose sphere is the ordering of the lowest orders of Oblivion, known as the Taskmaster."

As we know there are an infinite number of realms within Oblivion that show infinite variation and "embody all possibilities". Which means Peryite is responsible for/ and or influences an infinite number of planes. And as Peryite is often described as "weak" it's possible his feats are not considered impressive amongst the Princes.

Also, if someone is willing, we should probably change all 2-A ratings in TES to possibly 2-A. Just be a little safer.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sheoth

Okay. Thanks.

If somebody makes a list of the exact titles of all the pages that need to be updated, I can use a script to temporarily unlock them.

@All

The above part needs to be handled in order to get anything done.

 

[Sheoth]

This causality business seems to be a case of locations. As in they are only acausal when they are in Oblivion or Aetherius, causality is enforced in Mundus by Akatosh and the other Aedra.

This is true for the most part, but I believe there is more to it. As we know, the Daedric Princes cannot manifest their full power in Mundus, and the same likely applied to causality. All of the Princes pages have sections of stats, being their power in mundus and their unrestricted power in their own planes. Causality can be given to them on their second set of stats as that is them unrestricted by Akatosh's rules, meaning everything works out

But also, I don't think downgrading to possibly 2-A is necessary. Akatosh's stat placement is valid enough, and your Peryite example furthers it.

 

[Sheoth]

@All

The above part needs to be handled in order to get anything done.

I will get it done later tonight.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Shazam121]

Perhaps we could add death manipulation or resurrection (whichever is more appropriate) since we are opening the pages. During his Oblivion quest Molag Bal brings the player character back to life:

"Another mortal come to do my bidding. I only wish suffering and death. You will bring me both. I want to see a man brought to the edge. And pushed. Near Brindle Home you will find Melus Petilius. A good man. An honorable man. He disgusts me. He has sworn an oath: never to raise a weapon against another man again. I want him to break that oath, and damn himself forever. You will let him kill you with this: the Cursed Mace. As you are doing this for me, I'll save your miserable life. Probably. Get out of my sight."

He later resurrects the player and teleports them to his shrine.

And in Skyrim he revives an NPC that the player is beating for him.

 

[SITHISIT]

I found it easier if I list the entire subsection that im supposing sheoth created for all Daedric entities, then from there I don't have to type in every single page.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Daedra


The following should not be given acausality (unless shown otherwise)


Umbra

The Ruddy Man

Flame Atronachs

Frost Atronachs

Storm Atronachs

Possibly Barbas and CoC (I say possibly because CoC mantled Sheo, however I am sort of against him having the rating in the first place...) (And Barbas because he simply absorbed half of Clavicus's power. And it's unknown if he inherited any abilities.)

--

I'll also list the subsection for Aedra

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Aedra

I'm not sure if Akatosh should have the ability considering he is C&A

--

Okay now to list them individually....


Aldui

Anui-El (created Akatosh (well he did create Aka instead but..) and transcends the concept of causality)

Magnus

Anu (same reasons, just scratch the created akatosh part)

Padomay

Satakal

The Godhead

tell me if anyone shouldnt be on here...

 

[Antvasima]

Shouldn't all of our Aedra and Daedra profiles be listed?

 

[Antvasima]

You can check here in order to write the list:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:The_Elder_Scrolls

 

[Sheoth]

I got it


Daedra:

Hircine

Mehrunes Dago

Sheogorath

Hermaeus Mora

Molag Bal

Meridia

Boethiah

Malacath

Azura

Mephala

Sanguine

Vaermina

Clavicus Vile

Peryite

Namira

Nocturnal


Aedra:

Akatosh

Talos

Arkay

Stendarr

Kynareth

Zenithar

Julianos


Other:

Lorkha

Magnus

Sithis

Y'ffre


And I believe that should be everyone.

 

[Sheoth]

Perhaps we could add death manipulation or resurrection (whichever is more appropriate) since we are opening the pages. During his Oblivion quest Molag Bal brings the player character back to life:
"Another mortal come to do my bidding. I only wish suffering and death. You will bring me both. I want to see a man brought to the edge. And pushed. Near Brindle Home you will find Melus Petilius. A good man. An honorable man. He disgusts me. He has sworn an oath: never to raise a weapon against another man again. I want him to break that oath, and damn himself forever. You will let him kill you with this: the Cursed Mace. As you are doing this for me, I'll save your miserable life. Probably. Get out of my sight."

He later resurrects the player and teleports them to his shrine.

And in Skyrim he revives an NPC that the player is beating for him.

I can agree to this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will unlock the list that you just posted. However, it only works if you posted the exact names of all the pages.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems to have worked fine. Tell me here when the revisions are done, and do not change anything else.

 

[Shazam121]

Does someone still plan to make these edits? And also I've noticed that Sheogorath has "Higher-Dimensional manipulation" as one of his powers, why?

 

[Antvasima]

I am still waiting for somebody to handle the edits. Feel free to do so.

You can probably remove higher-dimensional manipulation.

 

[SITHISIT]

i did a few edits, was too tired to do all of them considering it was late at night lol

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to handle the rest now.

 

[Jjp7123]

Wait, what about the Hero of Kvatch? He became a Daedra Prince so this should apply to him as well.

 

[Shazam121]

I think I've done them all. I added the following mostly:

"Acausal (according to Fa-Nuit-Hen, Daedra are not bound by time, cause and consequence in their natural state), Resurrection (scaled from Molag Bal who has shown the ability to revive the dead, with their faculties intact, both in Oblivion and Skyrim)"

 

[Jjp7123]

May I request to add some other ablities to the Hero of Kvatch page as well as Acausity and Resurrection? I want to add Necromancy, Weather Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Probability Manipulation and Madness Inducement to his page.

 

[Antvasima]

@Shazam121

Thank you very much for the help. Should I lock the profiles again then?

 

[Antvasima]

I have now done so.

Should I close this thread as well?

 

[Jjp7123]

I have now done so.
Should I close this thread as well?

No wait, I'd like to update The Hero of Kvatch page, since he's a Daedra Prince as well.

 

[Jjp7123]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Shazam121]

I have now done so.
Should I close this thread as well?

No wait, I'd like to update The Hero of Kvatch page, since he's a Daedra Prince as well.

He's not a Daedric Prince. Sheogorath is.

The Hero of Kvatch doesn't exist anymore. I don't even agree with his 2-A rating.

What we basically have here is two separate profiles for Sheogorath. It's unnecessary.

 

[Antvasima]

@Shazam121

Should I unlock The Hero of Kvatch page, so you can modify it accordingly?

 

[Shazam121]

I'd rather just leave it alone.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Since this issue seems to have been dealt with, should I close this thread?

 

[Shazam121]

I think you can.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

Btw: I had to perform a lot of cleanups for your edits. There seems to be a bug that inserts bulky code even in the source code/classic editor when text is copy-pasted into a profile.