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The Elder Scrolls: Precognition and acausality

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Jyggalag

I think that Jyggalag should gain the ability of pre-cognition. According to Dyus in the Shivering Isles downloadable content:

"The great library was the height of logic and deduction. Contained within its walls were the logical prediction of every action ever taken by any creature, mortal or Daedric. Every birth. Every death. The rise of Tiber Septim. The Numidium. Everything. All predicted with the formulae found within Jyggalag's library."

I believe Jyggalag should be able to easily do this, if Dyus, who is only a man, can use this formula to see events before they happen:

"I have been waiting for you, Your Grace. This day, as all days before and after, is well known to me. There are no surprises to Dyus of Mytheria. Sheogorath has fallen and you seek the means to foil the machinations of the Prince of Order. You seek the Throne of Madness."

Do note that Dyus is trapped in a sealed room underground, so there is no other way he could have known this.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:Dyus

This page takes quotes strictly from Dyus in-game.


Other Gods

There could be a very minor case made for most TES gods having pre-cognition, and a bigger case for them being acausal. These are found in Vivec's dialogue when asked about what being a god is like:

"It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I'm afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There's too much to do, and not enough time, and I'm losing my touch. Perhaps I'm growing old.

It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it.

It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."



Vivec also takes the player character outside of time in Morrowind. This shows that at least Vivec is acausal:

"You will now have a brief, momentary sensation of time passing. Don't be alarmed. You are being taken out of time in order to avoid the unpleasant experience of learning how to use Wraithguard. It will be over before... [There is a brief sensation of motion in total darkness, floating, but without a sense of weight or direction.] ...you know it."

(Later)

"I have no idea what happened to the Dwemer. I have no sense of them in the timeless divine world outside of mortal time. And, in fact, if I did believe they existed, I would be in no hurry to make contact with them."



These three quotes are from Vivec's dialogue. Now, here are more quotes from other sources which would support this:

"As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. Oh, it's useful to adopt the trappings of duration when dealing with mortals, so you'll find Maelstrom quite familiar in that regard. We know how lost you feel away from the hand of Akatosh!"

(Later)

"You have received a sending—divine in origin, of course, and not mortal, as you mortals are subject to time and its maddening limitations."

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25521

"Oh, of course, 'Doyen,' because assuaging the grief of mortals is so important to me. Let me be clear: inhabitants of the Shivering Isles are affected by Time, but we are not subject to it. We are subjects of Lord Sheogorath, who subjects us to whatever subjects he is in the mood to subjudicate. Because Time is subjective."

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25313

So who agrees or disagrees?
 
Precognition seems reasonable, but I am not certain of acausality. I would appreciate further staff input regarding the subject.
 
I brought this up in the past but Vivec shouldn't have a 2-A rating. He doesn't have any 2-A feats, we don't know what CHIM is and the best of Vivec all comes from out of game sources of questionable canonicity (Trial Of Vivec). But even if we consider his feat of banishing Azura from this questionable text I'm still not so sure it's 2-A. For one thing Vivec used Azura's true name to bind her and make her powerless... anyone could do that, their personal power is irrelevant. And it's not like he destroyed Azura, all he did was banish her. Though I consider the whole thing to be unofficial to being with.

As to matter at hand.

I guess pre-cog is okay.

As for acasual... well they probably are. For starters if you exist outside linear time you are acusual by default no?

If OP is willing to edit all the profiles I'm fine with it I think.
 
Well, the problem is that acausality technically means being outside of the laws of cause and effect. At its most basic level, being killed in the past does not affect a character in the present.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, the problem is that acausality technically means being outside of the laws of cause and effect. At its most basic level, being killed in the past does not affect a character in the present.
Fa-Nuit-Hen does seem to imply this here:

"As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivio. Oh, it's useful to adopt the trappings of duration when dealing with mortals, so you'll find Maelstrom quite familiar in that regard. We know how lost you feel away from the hand of Akatosh!"

And this:

The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."

There seem to be the most pertinent quotes for us to consider. But causality is tricky subject and fiction often underplays is importance.
 
Yes, we probably need more specific examples or definitions in order to classify the characters as acausal.
 
Okay. I can unlock the page if you wish.
 
I have unlocked the page, but after inspecting it, it seems like Vivec was able to beat Azura, so shouldn't he scale accordingly?
 
The Azura thing is of questionable canonicity and even if we consider it:

"
But even if we consider his feat of banishing Azura from this questionable text I'm still not so sure it's 2-A. For one thing Vivec used Azura's true name (nymic) to bind her and make her powerless... anyone could do that, their personal power is irrelevant. And it's not like he destroyed Azura, all he did was banish her, which in the context of TES is not a 2-A feat any way.
 
Okay. Never mind then. However, you will have to place an explanation footnote for why we do not count the feat in Vivec's page.
 
I added this:

"We do not use "The Trial of Vivec" to tier Vivec for the following reasons: it suffers from questionable canonicity, involves the use of specific "hax" known as "neonymics" to circumvent a possible strength difference, possibly contradicts more reputable sources and because the feat of "banishing" Azura is not easily quantified."
 
Should I lock the profile now?
 
Also, if we decide to add this pre-cog stuff to all the god profiles, I'd feel it would be better if we changed all of the 2-A ratings to possibly 2-A.
 
I do not have the energy to unlock all of the god profiles right now, but I can do so for Jyggalag/Sheogorath if you wish.
 
I thought we might leave that for Mora8. I dont think there's any rush to add anything, in the meanwhile we can see if others have something to say about this. And we can do this when you have more free time.
 
I never have much free time. I work 9 hours a day 7 days of the week taking care of this community, and right now I am in the middle of a staff recruitment drive as well.
 
And I'd say you do an excellent job of it too. Always appreciated you making time for a relatively quiet series like TES.
 
Thank you.

Do you wish to add precognition to Jyggalag or not? If not, I should probably close this thread.
 
Okay. I will unlock Sheogorath's profile. You can tell me here when you are done.
 
Okay. Should I close this thread then?
 
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