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Lancer (Fate/stay night) vs. Caster (C├║ Chulainn)
- Thread starter Dargoo_Faust
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bump
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Umpbay
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Bumpus Maximus
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i'll bump your thread and promote this great one at the same time
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Blump
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Badump
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Pmub
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Bump.
Also, a minor (but important) correction to an earlier statement.
Apparently, Gae Bolg (Melee) is instantaneous. As soon as the name is invoked and the curse takes effect, the spear is logically already through the target's heart, and the thrust comes after the heart has already been pierced. Reversal of "cause" and "effect" remember? It includes order of events, so "the opponent getting hit" comes before the thrusting of the spear. That's why there is literally no dodging or blocking it as long as the target is within melee range. Seals the deal in Lancer's favour tbh.
Also, a minor (but important) correction to an earlier statement.
Apparently, Gae Bolg (Melee) is instantaneous. As soon as the name is invoked and the curse takes effect, the spear is logically already through the target's heart, and the thrust comes after the heart has already been pierced. Reversal of "cause" and "effect" remember? It includes order of events, so "the opponent getting hit" comes before the thrusting of the spear. That's why there is literally no dodging or blocking it as long as the target is within melee range. Seals the deal in Lancer's favour tbh.
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Damn you got scans?
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Vote is still 2-2.
@Sol
Under Standard Battle Assumptions, wouldn't they start out the battle much farther away than Gae Bolg's Melee range?
@Sol
Under Standard Battle Assumptions, wouldn't they start out the battle much farther away than Gae Bolg's Melee range?
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Reinhard throws his spear
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Wait wrong show, Lancer throws his spear :^)
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@Faust
They would, but it barely matters since Lancer vastly outpaces Caster both in movement and attack speed. All of Caster's heavy-hitting moves take a small prep time, while Lancer has PFA to defend against everything else. This would already be enough in my books, but the instant Gae Bolg just seals it.
@Iapitus
No scans outright saying that it's instant, just that reversal of cause and effect logically makes it instant. It's in the meaning of the phrase: the Cause is "the heart has been pierced" and the Effect is "the spear has been thrust". Cause comes before effect, or else this wouldn't even be a feat of causality reversal; and physical attack speed only factors in for "the spear has been thrust". Thus, logically, the end result (the heart being pierced) is instantaneous. The spear being thrust is treated as a formality, a technically unnecessary follow-up.
They would, but it barely matters since Lancer vastly outpaces Caster both in movement and attack speed. All of Caster's heavy-hitting moves take a small prep time, while Lancer has PFA to defend against everything else. This would already be enough in my books, but the instant Gae Bolg just seals it.
@Iapitus
No scans outright saying that it's instant, just that reversal of cause and effect logically makes it instant. It's in the meaning of the phrase: the Cause is "the heart has been pierced" and the Effect is "the spear has been thrust". Cause comes before effect, or else this wouldn't even be a feat of causality reversal; and physical attack speed only factors in for "the spear has been thrust". Thus, logically, the end result (the heart being pierced) is instantaneous. The spear being thrust is treated as a formality, a technically unnecessary follow-up.
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@Sol
Gotcha. What stops Caster Cu, who would know this fact, from doing this, if Lancer goes with Melee!Gae Bolg? Caster Cu shouldn't be outright blitzed by Lancer Cu, if we're assuming his speed scaling feats in the animation are false, and should react fast enough to prep some sort of defense.
Talking about speed, it's explicitly stated that Lancer Medusa is the adult verson of her counterpart, so he should scale to her.
Gotcha. What stops Caster Cu, who would know this fact, from doing this, if Lancer goes with Melee!Gae Bolg? Caster Cu shouldn't be outright blitzed by Lancer Cu, if we're assuming his speed scaling feats in the animation are false, and should react fast enough to prep some sort of defense.
Talking about speed, it's explicitly stated that Lancer Medusa is the adult verson of her counterpart, so he should scale to her.
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Bump
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@Faust
You do realize that a body-replacement technique (assuming there isn't some inherent hax to it), inherently requires the target to physically evade the oncoming attack, right? Even if it involves illusions, the actual attack still has to be evaded. EMIYA being caught in an illusion just means that Caster's hypothetical illusions can bypass D rank Magic Resistance. Otherwise, it takes time reversal or something similar to out-hax Gae Bolg, and even then, it's a mutual kill (i.e. Fragarach). Caster has no such abilities, and without a means to evade, Gae Bolg takes it whether Caster knows of it or not.
Also, even if Caster's runes are potent enough to one-shot with Lancer's MR, a trap needs prep, a fireball has travelling time, and Lancer is easily fast and skilled enough to evade. Not to sound like a broken record, but Gae Bolg is still instant upon activation while within range; there's nothing that can change that, unless Caster has displayed feats of nullifying or countering causality manipulation - which he hasn't.
You do realize that a body-replacement technique (assuming there isn't some inherent hax to it), inherently requires the target to physically evade the oncoming attack, right? Even if it involves illusions, the actual attack still has to be evaded. EMIYA being caught in an illusion just means that Caster's hypothetical illusions can bypass D rank Magic Resistance. Otherwise, it takes time reversal or something similar to out-hax Gae Bolg, and even then, it's a mutual kill (i.e. Fragarach). Caster has no such abilities, and without a means to evade, Gae Bolg takes it whether Caster knows of it or not.
Also, even if Caster's runes are potent enough to one-shot with Lancer's MR, a trap needs prep, a fireball has travelling time, and Lancer is easily fast and skilled enough to evade. Not to sound like a broken record, but Gae Bolg is still instant upon activation while within range; there's nothing that can change that, unless Caster has displayed feats of nullifying or countering causality manipulation - which he hasn't.
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@Reppuzan
I know that. It's just that Archer has a fighting style tailored specifically to controlling the battle, has B rank Eye of the Mind (True) to help him do it, has decent physical parameters, and can recreate his weapons nigh-endlessly to make up for the difference in quality between K&B and Gae Bolg.
Caster has a staff that isn't suited to CQC, has neither of the Eye of the Mind variants, has crappy physical parameters, and uses a style that seems to barely fit his skillset as a Caster-class Servant; to the point that he outright admits that he would prefer to be summoned as a Lancer. Lancer can easily close in faster than Caster can keep him at a distance, and in addition, Gae Bolg's range isn't even that short, based on the first encounter with Saber as seen in the UBW anime.
Quite frankly, I don't see how we're still debating this. WoG already states that Cu Chulainn is at his best as a Lancer, not a Caster, afaik. And I doubt we have enough feats from Caster with his one showing in First Order to outweigh all of the strengths and abilities Lancer has been shown to possess over the course of his existence.
I know that. It's just that Archer has a fighting style tailored specifically to controlling the battle, has B rank Eye of the Mind (True) to help him do it, has decent physical parameters, and can recreate his weapons nigh-endlessly to make up for the difference in quality between K&B and Gae Bolg.
Caster has a staff that isn't suited to CQC, has neither of the Eye of the Mind variants, has crappy physical parameters, and uses a style that seems to barely fit his skillset as a Caster-class Servant; to the point that he outright admits that he would prefer to be summoned as a Lancer. Lancer can easily close in faster than Caster can keep him at a distance, and in addition, Gae Bolg's range isn't even that short, based on the first encounter with Saber as seen in the UBW anime.
Quite frankly, I don't see how we're still debating this. WoG already states that Cu Chulainn is at his best as a Lancer, not a Caster, afaik. And I doubt we have enough feats from Caster with his one showing in First Order to outweigh all of the strengths and abilities Lancer has been shown to possess over the course of his existence.
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Solacis said:
Point me to where it says that. Cu only claimed that he prefers to be summoned as a Lancer, not that he's stronger in that form.Solacis said:
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Forget those, I added them as afterthoughts at 2am in the morning. I'm sure I read an interview on it before, but since I can't find it, probably best to just forget about it.Dargoo Faust said:
Still, Cu Chulainn is most famous for his warrior skill and his monstrous bouts of rage, so it makes sense that he's best as a Lancer (or some other Knight class) or Berserker. His entire skillset as a Caster was only briefly mentioned in the legends, and even then, druids didn't exist until way after his time. Material books stated that since "irish magic user" was synonymous to "druid", forcing Cu into the Caster class makes him embody a skillset and Noble Phantasm that he didn't actually have in life, thus making him uncomfortable. The only things he did have in life were his skills in rune magic.
Putting all of that aside, I have yet to hear a solid argument for how Caster could pull off a win. Lancer has all of the advantages here, as far as I can see. Well, not like it matters. Nobody's voting anyway.
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@Dargoo
He outright says it at the end of the Fuyuki singularity to summon him as a Lancer next time. He prefers being Lancer since he's only a "substitute Druid" as his claim to fame was his martial prowess.
He outright says it at the end of the Fuyuki singularity to summon him as a Lancer next time. He prefers being Lancer since he's only a "substitute Druid" as his claim to fame was his martial prowess.
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Bump
Vote is still 2-2, and yeah, sadly there is not that many new votes.
@Repp
That's still him just saying that he prefers being in that class. It also doesn't answer the question of which of them would be superior to the other in combat.
Vote is still 2-2, and yeah, sadly there is not that many new votes.
@Repp
That's still him just saying that he prefers being in that class. It also doesn't answer the question of which of them would be superior to the other in combat.
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@Faust
Cu Chulainn became famous because of his martial prowess, while his magic was only briefly touched upon during his training with Scathach. He was forced into the "mould" of a druid, despite having none of the skills for it, as his magecraft learned from Scathach was norse in origin. It implies that his Caster incarnation is unsuited for utilizing the magecraft he does know. Now think about it, which would win out? Assuming the two are evenly matched in every way, wouldn't the one more familiar with his skillset be the victor?
Think about it from Cu's perspective. He loves a good fight against challenging opponents and hates holding back or being forced to. He wants to be summoned as a Lancer because that's just what he's best as; and being summoned into a class in which he's inherently unable to use some of his best and most familiar abilities can be easily interpreted as being forced to hold back. Meanwhile, even as a Lancer, he has access to more or less all of his rune magic, with only his magical energy being his limiter.
The Caster class, in-lore, has always been stated to be highly ineffective in combat against Knight classes as a rule of thumb with few exceptions. They need prep, and a lot of it, to pose a significant threat in a Grail War. Then there's the idea of the fame boost. Fame boost is affected by the state of the summoned Servant, as shown with the comparison between FSN Cu (older Cu) and Proto-Cu (younger Cu). When people think of Cu Chulainn, they think of a monstrous celtic warrior that literally built mountains of corpses before he reached the age of 20, not an accomplished norse magus with nothing but the ancient equivalent of a training montage to his name.
Quite frankly, even IF Caster Cu managed to hit Lancer Cu with Wickerman, Lancer Cu still has a Rune Barrier capable of nullfying high-tier NPs that he can put up nigh-instantly.
Cu Chulainn became famous because of his martial prowess, while his magic was only briefly touched upon during his training with Scathach. He was forced into the "mould" of a druid, despite having none of the skills for it, as his magecraft learned from Scathach was norse in origin. It implies that his Caster incarnation is unsuited for utilizing the magecraft he does know. Now think about it, which would win out? Assuming the two are evenly matched in every way, wouldn't the one more familiar with his skillset be the victor?
Think about it from Cu's perspective. He loves a good fight against challenging opponents and hates holding back or being forced to. He wants to be summoned as a Lancer because that's just what he's best as; and being summoned into a class in which he's inherently unable to use some of his best and most familiar abilities can be easily interpreted as being forced to hold back. Meanwhile, even as a Lancer, he has access to more or less all of his rune magic, with only his magical energy being his limiter.
The Caster class, in-lore, has always been stated to be highly ineffective in combat against Knight classes as a rule of thumb with few exceptions. They need prep, and a lot of it, to pose a significant threat in a Grail War. Then there's the idea of the fame boost. Fame boost is affected by the state of the summoned Servant, as shown with the comparison between FSN Cu (older Cu) and Proto-Cu (younger Cu). When people think of Cu Chulainn, they think of a monstrous celtic warrior that literally built mountains of corpses before he reached the age of 20, not an accomplished norse magus with nothing but the ancient equivalent of a training montage to his name.
Quite frankly, even IF Caster Cu managed to hit Lancer Cu with Wickerman, Lancer Cu still has a Rune Barrier capable of nullfying high-tier NPs that he can put up nigh-instantly.
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@Sol
You know what, good points. Conceding my points on Lancer/Caster, although I can't personally vote.
You know what, good points. Conceding my points on Lancer/Caster, although I can't personally vote.
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Don't let this happen, plz
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Lancer FRA
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<3
Lancer (4): Sol, Repp, Iap, Walking
Caster (2): Monarch, Gojira
Lancer (4): Sol, Repp, Iap, Walking
Caster (2): Monarch, Gojira
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Bump
Almost at enough votes to start a grace period!
Almost at enough votes to start a grace period!
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Bump
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*Starts chanting*
One more vote!
One more vote!
also bump
One more vote!
One more vote!
also bump
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Bump
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Lancer Cu
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And that's seven votes! Grace period begins.
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Hell yeah
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Adding them now. This thread can be closed.
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Your persistence paid off my friend
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Wait
Sorry for the necro
How are their 7 votes?
Sorry for the necro
How are their 7 votes?
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Well then, I'll be removing the thread from the profiles.Gargoyle One said:
Apparenrly a month ago I didn't really understand the versus thread rules.
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Conversely, though, this thread is still open for votes.
And the wait continues.
And the wait continues.
- Status
