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Kyoko Sakura vs Sekiro

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Pretty easily beat Gyoubu who people literally considered impossible to beat to the point where local soldiers will be like "Oh no an army many times stronger than us are going to invade" "yeah but we have Gyoubu" "oh yeah you right we cool"
 
That honestly doesn't sound more impressive than having a fair match with Mami (Kyoko was fighting Oktavia in the meantime, as well) when you consider that the latter has done stuff like:

-Beating someone who had about a decade of prior knowledge via time loops (and is skilled enough to survive a hundred battles with a 6-C)

-Battle a clone of herself that has superior stats (Excluding intelligence) + time stop, aided by a Kyoko clone with the same characteristics

-Beat an opponent with time slow tricking her into killing herself due to it (with no prior knowledge and after being wounded)

-Being one of the few people on the planet that survives for a while against this

Probably more i'm forgetting but you get the idea
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Pretty easily beat Gyoubu who people literally considered impossible to beat to the point where local soldiers will be like "Oh no an army many times stronger than us are going to invade" "yeah but we have Gyoubu" "oh yeah you right we cool"
Click to expand...
That's doesn't covering much of all Sekiro experience Bambu, there is Owl, Divine Dragon, Genichiro, and fricking Isshin.

Tho everything of what Kaeroseki said is pretty much covering all of Kyoko experience so i doubt Sekiro experience will be higher if that four brought up.
 
Every major boss is knowledgeable on Wolf by default though. Well. Most. Gyoubu and the Ashina, for sure.

No offense but the clone thing is basically PIS no matter how you look at it. Or random chance. Like "I'm more skilled than myself but better" just doesn't make sense unless the other contender isn't actually better.

Sekiro tearing through an army built to kill Shinobi, whose leaders he fights and have specific prior knowledge of him, isn't a bad skill feat. Being able to beat literally every other shinobi master in the country despite generally being physically inferior (Wolf is actually pretty small compared to everyone else in the game) and managing feats like grappling a ledge while falling to his death with blurred vision... it's all pretty damn good. I dunno the context of home girl's fight with Mami, but my vote stands.

I'm aware of the other stuff you commented, and some of it sounds neat, but keep in mind that while haxy characters in PMMM overcome other people with hax in PMMM, practically nobody has true hax in Sekiro. It is literally just skill in combat and physical strength. There is no trump card to whip out and wipe out an enemy. Wolf is generally somewhat weaker than the bosses he fights, so his whole purpose is to find some weakness in these immensely skilled warriors and assassinate them repeatedly.
 
@Veloxt I'm aware. I was just getting a relatively basic and early example of his skill feats. There's also the Monk-Shinobi since we're listing off really good skill feats. Granted, he's a demon when you fight him (spoiler).
 
@Bambu

Not really, if your clone is superior to you but intelligence then it completely depends on the skill gap between you and your clone.

Why does Sekiro beat people that are stronger then him? Because of his skill
 
...oof.

Quoting myself.

"No offense but the clone thing is basically PIS no matter how you look at it. Or random chance. Like "I'm more skilled than myself but better" just doesn't make sense unless the other contender isn't actually better."

Being more skilled than a fully improved version of yourself doesn't make sense unless the other guy isn't actually better. Literally what I said. If it isn't actually you then you don't share the same skill, and you're not actually a clone, but last I checked clones are normally perfect copies.
 
Avatar of Calamity is what makes these clones, the reason they're not as skilled is because it doesn't share their memories and expirience.

Hence why the clones have Kyoko's abilities and superior stats but not skilled.

Perhaps saying "Superior" wouldn't be true if Kyoko's copy was still weaker due to the skill gap, maybe copy makes more sense.
 
But I said the clone has better stats but not the same intelligence?

And it's not "hax beating hax" for the time slow thing. It's "explosive bullets beating time slow while the person using the former is wounded". It's absolutely a skill feat
 
So they aren't just better, they lack any experience. Then yeah it absolutely makes sense as to how they'd lose. My example of it being PIS to beat down clones is perfectly personified (just off the top of my head) by Red vs Blue where they fight hundreds of Tex clones all at once... when the OG Tex could wipe the floor with all of them simultaneously.
 
Well, they have the intelligence of several Wraiths + drained people, but yeah, their intelligence is not the same
 
A wraith in my book is a particular form of undead in D&D but I shall pretend to understand

Eh. I don't see evidence of Kyoko being more skilled than Wolf, but I can see the sense in AP + Clones. I'll vote Kyoko FRA to speed this along.
 
A Wraith is basically a giant humanoid that eats emotions from people in PMMM. They're the substitutes of witches after Madoka made a law that says they can't exist.

So it's the "born for combat but no actual feats because it isn't a proper character" sort of enemy.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
So they aren't just better, they lack any experience. Then yeah it absolutely makes sense as to how they'd lose. My example of it being PIS to beat down clones is perfectly personified (just off the top of my head) by Red vs Blue where they fight hundreds of Tex clones all at once... when the OG Tex could wipe the floor with all of them simultaneously.
Click to expand...
I thought all of the Tex clones were significantly weaker because they were Tex divided by 100?
 
Was that ever established? I just remembered "oh its lots of tex they beat for some reason".

@Kalt Ah. in D&D even monsters have feats but you know yours is neat too
 
no

not even a little
 
All of the Tex Clones were not only failures and much weaker then the Normal Tess, but they were all simultaneously feeding off the strength of the Tex that we know in the series until Church shut down the main one, hence, the Tex's all fell down.

It's not PIS, they didn't even fight the proper Tex or a decent copy, well, they did and Grif could never **** again
 
From what I just read on Kyoko profile, it says that her clones are just physical illusions.

Sekiro hard counters her with Snap Seeds.
 
Physical illusions that still hurt you and attack you and have regen

Even though Im pretty sure that isn't true.
 
That depends entirely from the kind of illusions that Snap Seeds dispel.

Because if they negate hallucinations or something, the "illusory" clone is still very much able of stabbing him
 
Fair I guess.

Still giving it to Kyoko via comparable skills, superior stats, higher range, and being harder to kill.

How is Sekiro supposed to understand that the clones are illusions btw? Because they look exactly the same as the original.
 
There's just not really anything else that clones so it can't hurt to try.
 
Kaltias said:
Fair I guess.

Still giving it to Kyoko via comparable skills, superior stats, higher range, and being harder to kill.

How is Sekiro supposed to understand that the clones are illusions btw? Because they look exactly the same as the original.
Click to expand...
That's precisely why Sekiro will think that the clones are illusions. Because their clones. Only method of creating clones in Sekiro is through illusions so it would be in-character for him to assume so. Besides it doesn't hurt to try.

I still think the stealth method is viable. Sekiro is far too stealthy for her to sense and it is what he's best at. He cannot be heard, sensed, smelled, and seen (with consumables) with his skills and techniques.

If she someone how survives the initial blow (assuming Sekiro isn't using the Mortal Blade), he can just go for another deathblow (like how in the Gyoubu Oniwa fight he goes for two additional stabs after he falls) or just repeat his strategy of retreating and using stealth again.
 
Wolf has the skill but if he doesn't stealth Kyoko with the Mortal Blade (which he doesn't pull out immediately and she can tank that anyway right?) he'll be surrounded. If he manages to get away from that Kyoko will be on high alert and invisibility won't work given she can see invisibles. When Kyoko gets a kill on him she'll (maybe/probably?) let her guard down, so if she isn't looking at him when he resurrects that'll be his other chance. If he fails to get her she'll watch him like a hawk any time she gets a kill.

Given all this I'd say Wolf gets AP slapped by Kyoko and Kyoko and Kyoko and Kyoko and every other Kyoko
 
She sees that, backs off and bombards him from range. And iirc snap seeds have pretty short range, so she just has to summon more and keep her distance, then Wolf has to deal with fireballs and spears from everyhere.
 
If we consider the illusions as physical copies, which I can buy into since they certainly deal physical damage... I guess I'd throw a vote for incon? I still see Wolf as being significantly more skilled but he's at a pretty rough AP disadvantage, and lacks range. I don't Kyoko overcoming skill/immortality nuking more often than not, but I don't see Wolf faring terribly well either. So both have equally poor chances imo.

Incon for me.
 
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