Kratos Tier 2-C Downgrade.

[WeeklyBattles]

Surtur's feat hasnt even happened, why would we use it?

 

[WindGodAcheron]

Surtur's feat hasnt even happened, why would we use it?

Surtur's feat, as well as literally everything prophesized about Ragnarok, did happen in the World Serpent's timeline. The World Serpent is there because of the Yggdrasil splinter to begin with.

Kratos's arrival in the realms ended up changing the order of the events.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I didn't say that

All the other feats are tier 3 or low tier 2

I was mentioning that the feat could be calced in 4-A, not Tier 3, and that low end Tier 3 was only a possibility.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Surtr's feat hasn't even happened

This again...

Surtr's feat did happen in the future timeline.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Actually, could someone PM me a list of the 3-A feats in particular? If it's just celestial body creation and no space is being created it might not fall under that value.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Dargoo

The primary 3-A feat is Uranus. Considering that in the introduction we see his body generating the universe (which was confirmed by statements), then it'd fall under our standard of "moving a whole X at FTL speeds"

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Dargoo

Don't we use GBE for "moving X at FTL speeds" though? (Assuming X is a celestial body)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes

 

[Kepekley23]

No, we don't.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

No, we don't.

Actually, that page you linked has no mention of Tier 3-A. It only goes up to 3-B.

And isn't that rating listing based on the same "size chart" you claimed was unfounded in the creation thread?

 

[Kepekley23]

I mean, it is the logical follow-up of what is stated there. Exact same logic.

 

[Kirby71]

This thread topic is Extremly cevfgdjg controversial, reminds me of Goku VS superman.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Moving all the mass of the universe is only 3-B

 

[Kepekley23]

Moving all the mass of the universe is only 3-B

Doing anything that isn't destroying the universe, including creating it, isn't 3-A in actual quantifiable energy value. Moving a solar system at FTL speeds is unquantifiable, we consider it 4-B because of a standard we made. Same reason here.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Nothing supports infinite speed Kratos, at least in the new game. Also lol at infinite speed Atreus justification, his arrows are faster then creatures that can tag Kratos? So even those giants are infinite speed.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, it is the logical follow-up of what is stated there. Exact same logic.

I'd rather have it on the page, because the feat that we're talking about falls under "moving multiple galaxies".

My second point has yet to be adressed, although I edited it in, so you might have missed it:

And isn't that rating listing based on the same "size chart" you claimed was unfounded in the creation thread?

 

[Kepekley23]

No, it doesn't. The whole universe came from his body. Not just a few galaxies.

I said the size chart was unfounded under your logic of creation feats, as a way of pointing out it makes no sense to try and use it if you discard our system.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

A small edit to the page would alleviate my issues with that. "Moving the mass of the universe at FTL speeds is classified as 3-A", for example. Do we have definite proof that what Uranus did moved stuff encompassing something the size of the observable universe, btw?

Also the number of galxies that are found in the observable universe is two trillion. Moving half of that would be 3-B from what I'm aware of. So yes, even if he moved a million glaxies that wouldn't be classified as 3-A under your standard.

I said the size chart was unfounded under your logic of creation feats. Let's not try to restart that discussion, please.

So, it's valid here?

I'm just worried that we're following a double standard from other discussions.

 

[Kepekley23]

I edited my response on the "size chart being unfounded" part, you can check it out now.

Uranus's son states that his father created the universe three separate times.

Cue Uranus actually appearing physically in the series - we see the Primordials fighting in a void, with his body containing all of that matter (making it probably universe-sized to begin with). Then we see him being punched so hard that there is an explosion around the battlefield (thus the explosion itself would probably scale to inverse square law yield) and we see countless stars and nebulae being spewed out from a very distant zoom-out of the explosion. I think those two things together right there constitute as the proof that it's universal, considering the scene later cuts to a fight on Earth.

One might state that when he fought Cronos he would have been weakened by the fight, but there is no proof of that (considering they can change their size all they want)

 

[Spawn888]

Nothing supports infinite speed Kratos, at least in the new game.
Also lol at infinite speed Atreus justification, his arrows are faster then creatures that can tag Kratos? So even those giants are infinite speed.

I still wait for someone to prove Kratos moving at light speeds or infinite. But since there is nothing that holds enough liquid to support it entirely, best to have Kratos moving Supersonic with Massively Hypersonic reactions/reflexes.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Infinite is the one thing I'm completely against, trust in Kep or no.

 

[Xerkser500]

Infinite is the one thing I'm completely against, trust in Kep or no.

I second this.

 

[Kepekley23]

I can understand the skepticism at Infinite, and can agree to a downgrade, but there are the following feats that are MFTL

• The universal round of fist-throwing the Primordials had in the beginning of the Ascension intro.

• The Sisters of the Fate's feat of physically managing, guiding, growing, snapping and etc. the threads of life nigh-instantly, of which there are as many threads as there are life-forms on Earth (not including microscopic life and only actual surface life for a lowball)

• The Valkyries from the Norse Game, who are able to travel between the realms through sheer speed

• Hermes guiding all the souls and bringing the dreams instantly, which was calc'ed at the low MFTL levels somewhere.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I edited my response on the "size chart being unfounded" part, you can check it out now.

Could I just get a yes or no on it being valid here? I'm pointing out that it's currently in the system you were using to rate a character. Your edit wasn't very direct, apologies.

Uranus's son states that his father created the universe three separate times.

Technically not a 3-A feat unless he made the space as well, going from previous discussions, assuming all he did was make the celestial bodies.

I'm... not very sure what to make of that scene. The primordial he's fighting creates the oceans when she dies and others just make the earth, so the sense of scale seems to be pretty inconsistent.

Why are we assuming that his body "contains all of the matter" and is "probably universe-sized"? I'm not really seeing what points to that in particular. Creating the universe doesn't equate to his body encompassing it unless we have statements. I can kind of get the reasoning but it makes some leaps in logic to get to a conclusion.

Then we see him being punched so hard that there is an explosion around the battlefield (thus the explosion itself would probably scale to inverse square law yield) and we see countless stars and nebulae being spewed out from a very distant zoom-out of the explosion.

Ehhhh. The POV rapidly changes, and the explosion more resembles a nebulae/supernova than anything else. It doesn't look like anything in the galactic levels of size, not to even speak of universal.

I think those two things together right there constitute as the proof that it's universal, considering the scene later cuts to a fight on Earth.

Wouldn't it cutting later to a fight on Earth more contradict it being universal?

 

[Spawn888]

I edited my response on the "size chart being unfounded" part, you can check it out now.
Uranus's son states that his father created the universe three separate times.

Cue Uranus actually appearing physically in the series - we see the Primordials fighting in a void, with his body containing all of that matter (making it probably universe-sized to begin with). Then we see him being punched so hard that there is an explosion around the battlefield (thus the explosion itself would probably scale to inverse square law yield) and we see countless stars and nebulae being spewed out from a very distant zoom-out of the explosion. I think those two things together right there constitute as the proof that it's universal, considering the scene later cuts to a fight on Earth.

One might state that when he fought Cronos he would have been weakened by the fight, but there is no proof of that (considering they can change their size all they want)

Pardon me on this, but you think or you know? As for it being probably universe-sized, I don't know man, but it almost sounds like based on conjecture alone.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I agree with dropping infinite; maybe some of the MFTL feats can be calced.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Iirc, someone estimated them at quadrillions

 

[Spawn888]

I can understand the skepticism at Infinite, and can agree to a downgrade, but there are the following feats that are MFTL

• The universal round of fist-throwing the Primordials had in the beginning of the Ascension intro.

• The Sisters of the Fate's feat of physically managing, guiding, growing, snapping and etc. the threads of life nigh-instantly, of which there are as many threads as there are life-forms on Earth (not including microscopic life and only actual surface life for a lowball)

• The Valkyries from the Norse Game, who are able to travel between the realms through sheer speed

• Hermes guiding all the souls and bringing the dreams instantly, which was calc'ed at the low MFTL levels somewhere.

Then its safe to have Kratos obtain FTL or whatever reactions because he doesn't appear to move that fast or show impressive speed feats (excluding his combat reactions)

 

[Kepekley23]

> Could I just get a yes or no on it being valid here? I'm pointing out that it's currently in the system you were using to rate a character. Your edit wasn't very direct, apologies.

A yes.

> Technically not a 3-A feat unless he made the space as well, going from previous discussions.

It is a 3-A feat via the reasons I explained on the post your quoted, space-aside.

> I'm... not very sure what to make of that scene. The primordial he's fighting creates the oceans when she dies and others just make the earth, so the sense of scale seems to be pretty inconsistent.

Area of Effect is irrelevant to Attack Potency. Condensed energy is a concept that exists and is mentioned on God of War, and, ironically, specifically relevant to the Primordials shifting their size.

> Why are we assuming that his body "contains all of the matter" and is "probably universe-sized"? I'm not really seeing what points to that in particular.

Because that is supposed to be the scene where he creates the universe to begin with.

> Ehhhh. The POV rapidly changes, and the explosion more resembles a nebulae/supernova than anything else. It doesn't look like anything in the galactic levels of size.

What it resembles is irrelevant to what it actually is in the lore. Since it's stated that Uranus created the universe, the only scene where Uranus actually confirmedly makes an appearance showing a gigantic explosion and countless nebulae spewing out of his body being a representation of...just that is Occam's Razor. It's the basic assumption we can make.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Where does infinite speed come from again?

 

[Spawn888]

snip

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Imma back Kep here for now. He's been handling this alone. As long as the tiering remains anything even remotely cosmic, I have no problem with MFTL+.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So, just to get this straight; we're OK on using a size chart for moving stuff at FTL speeds, but not for pocket realities? I'll refrain from commenting on the topic after this, perhaps we can jump back on the creation feats thread if needed.

And wouldn't the War of the Primordials be after the universe is created, not what created the universe?

 

[Kepekley23]

@Dargoo

• Uranus stated three different times to have created the universe

• Then, when he actually appears in the series a few years later, in the beginning of creation, his body is shown containing all of that, and in a fight, he gets hit so hard that there is a huge, cosmic explosion from which all of the cosmos stem, while the camera is zooming out at high speeds.

I think that it is Occam's Razor to assume that what is happening is exactly a visual representation of what is stated. Considering that the Primordials later lower their size purposedfully, and Uranus settles down to mate with Gaia while the other surviving Primordials go away into their own dimensions (Thanatos and Nyx), there is no other point where the universal creation mentioned by his son could have taken place.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Kratos being able to physically move his body at MFTL is pretty ridiculous. He spent a good portion of God of War trying to get to the top of the mountain. I mean he even uses a boat, but that's probably a gameplay decision like him not being able to jump. At best it would scale to his reaction speed imo.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

This seems interesting, I'm in agreement with Kep so far from what I've read.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Kratos being able to physically move his body at MFTL is pretty ridiculous. He spent a good portion of God of War trying to get to the top of the mountain. I mean he even uses a boat, but that's probably a gameplay decision like him not being able to jump. At best it would scale to his reaction speed imo.

This is why I'd like to rate travel speed differently from combat speed/reactions by default, but that's for another thread.

 

[Kepekley23]

Kratos being able to physically move his body at MFTL is pretty ridiculous. He spent a good portion of God of War trying to get to the top of the mountain. I mean he even uses a boat, but that's probably a gameplay decision like him not being able to jump. At best it would scale to his reaction speed imo.

Going by this same logic, then having Kratos at any speed that isn't Peak Human is ridiculous. If he were Supersonic at all he could leap mountains with a single jump (by the way, fodder demigods in Ascension have a feat of doing just that). If he were Hypersonic or higher he could leap islands instead of having to use "boats."

I direct you to this

But I agree that he obviously doesn't have such a travel speed.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Don't a lot of profiles do "X, X with combat and reactions"?

 

[Therefir]

Where does infinite speed come from again?

He scales from his demigod self, who can keep up with characters superior to Helios, but young Kratos' profile is a mess because it justifies his ratings by scaling from other characters and yet their profiles are not linked for some reason.