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Kratos Tier 2-C Downgrade.
- Thread starter Spawn888
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- god of war kratos
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Okay, going to reply to the arguments now that I'm home.
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Oh wait...there weren't any replies to my debunk. As I expected.
> The universe has no weight, dude.
Yes, it does. It has a density and a volume so it, by extension, has mass. And what is stated in the game overrides your word. Trying to request that it be shown on-screen won't get you anywhere.
> Once again, statements and what the developers and authors say still doesn't hold enough water
Doesn't work like that on VS Battles Wiki. If you can't counter the evidence then you drop it. But if you want a visual Universal feat on GoW, go here
> The universe has no weight, dude.
Yes, it does. It has a density and a volume so it, by extension, has mass. And what is stated in the game overrides your word. Trying to request that it be shown on-screen won't get you anywhere.
> Once again, statements and what the developers and authors say still doesn't hold enough water
Doesn't work like that on VS Battles Wiki. If you can't counter the evidence then you drop it. But if you want a visual Universal feat on GoW, go here
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"Cronus isn't one of the main Primordials ["Main" because there are lots of other characters who are also Primordial but mostly not at all comparable to Uranus and the like in power]"
When did they make Cronus a primordial? I thought he was a titan, this must be one of those infamousGOW retconns i've heard so much about.
When did they make Cronus a primordial? I thought he was a titan, this must be one of those infamousGOW retconns i've heard so much about.
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No, the universe has no weight.Kepekley23 said:
"Weight" and "Mass" should not be confused.
On Earth I have a mass of 75kg and a weight of about 735N (if you put me on a scale that is graduated in Newtons). On the moon with it's lower gravity my weight, on that same scale, would be 630N but my mass (without any space suit) would be unchanged at 75kg.
Weight is a force; mass can be considered the resistance of matter to acceleration (inertia).
So the Universe has mass - sometimes a value of 10^53 kg is given but that is only "ordinary matter" there is about 20 times as much in the form of "dark matter" and "dark energy" which we unfortunately know very little about. But the weight? There is nowhere you could put a scale on which to "weigh" the Universe.
And this is about Kratos dude, I need stuff related to Kratos.
As for the video, the narrator stated that the Primordials forged the Earth, not the universe. If anything, they basically molded the planet itself into shape. I want to also point out, that the Primordials are simply creating wordly aspects like mountains and waters. All I see is them creating the very fundamentals of the Earth itself. If anything, this is the only feat in God of War that is above planetary level, but not anything universal.
So once again, we are back to square one and we are focused on Kratos, who is unfortunately not a Primordial. No statements or story exaggeratons (Thor's fight with the World Serpent), I need the proofs, my friend! If there is nothing convincing enough to show all of us that Kratos is Multi-Versal level or whatever, then I'm sorry, but he must revert back to being Multi-Continent or perhaps place him as Planet Level.
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> No, the universe has no weight.
Go ahead and turn this into a semantics argument. Yes, the universe has no weight. It does have mass, and you can quantify the energy required to literally support the cosmos as the description puts it.
> And this is about Kratos dude, I need stuff related to Kratos.
Okay.
> As for the video, the narrator stated that the Primordials forged the Earth, not the universe.
The narrator of the series is Gaia - who is literally the very embodiment of Planet Earth itself, so it makes sense that she explicitly mentions what is relevant to her, ie. the Earth, as opposed to the wider universe. But hey, you can literally see the universe being made in the intro itself, and the primary canon comics explicitly state Uranus created the universe.
> If anything, this is the only feat in God of War that is above planetary level, but not anything universal.
The first chronological feat of at least 13-14 feats and statements, sure.
Go ahead and turn this into a semantics argument. Yes, the universe has no weight. It does have mass, and you can quantify the energy required to literally support the cosmos as the description puts it.
> And this is about Kratos dude, I need stuff related to Kratos.
Okay.
- Overpowers Cronos
- Kills Zeus
- Kills Hades
- Kills Thanatos
- Kills Poseidon
- Kills and overpowers Hercules
- Kills Helios
> As for the video, the narrator stated that the Primordials forged the Earth, not the universe.
The narrator of the series is Gaia - who is literally the very embodiment of Planet Earth itself, so it makes sense that she explicitly mentions what is relevant to her, ie. the Earth, as opposed to the wider universe. But hey, you can literally see the universe being made in the intro itself, and the primary canon comics explicitly state Uranus created the universe.
> If anything, this is the only feat in God of War that is above planetary level, but not anything universal.
The first chronological feat of at least 13-14 feats and statements, sure.
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One of the clashes seemed to create a sky full of stars. Maybe kep was referring to that.
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Then why isn't this changed in DBS's page? I find this quesitonable.
Because the dragon ball universe is bigger than ours.
Because the dragon ball universe is bigger than ours.
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Yep. Uranus, the literal personification of the universe (as stated in the artbook), gets punched by fellow primordial Ceto. The resulting clash is the creation of the whole universe, as stated by Uranus's son Gyges in the comics three separate times.Andytrenom said:
And Uranus got beaten and killed by none other than Cronos.
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I think Kep makes sense here.
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Kepekley23 said:
And we haven't seen Uranus create the universe, only heard stories. Okay, Kratos killed those gods because the weapons and magical artifacts he wields.
Obviously, it is Gaia....all I saw was the Primordials' epic battle forging mostly and mainly...and speicfically the Earth, not the universe. The explosion of stars doesn't appear universal as there are no other planets besides earth being forged.
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I agree with Kep here. This is just disbelief and ignoring statements.
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I have been summoned.
You are really uninformed about God of War's lore. No offense, but given the fact that literally everyone who was involved in the upgrade (mainly, Kep and I) had already seen your rant and you keep going around saying stuff that has been debunked for ages, there is absolutely no reason for this thread to be kept open. There is not a single thing on your rant that hasn't already been debunked and answered effectively on the thread the upgrade was made in.
This is not /r/CharacterRant. Arguments of AoE and "statements aren't legit" are considered highly fallacious here. If you can't source any of your points, I see no reason not to just shut this dowm. If you had read the threads where the upgrade was made, you could have at the very least come to this thread better prepared.
Let's, however, make a repeat of the other thread and deconstruct the arguments:
> 1 - The timeline scan is completely un - sourced
This has already been refuted above and dropped.
> There is no conformation the [2010 comics](http://godofwar.wikia.com/wiki/God_of_War_(comics) are canon either they weren't made by whoever makes the God of War games
Senior Writer: "The comics were made so that they could work as canon with the games."
So your assertion is, not surprisingly, completely wrong, as Kep said above.
> It doesn't say exactly how the Titan Cronus beat Uranus his Primordial father
And should we make any other assumption other than the default one, by assuming it happened like every single other instance of the Cycle of Patricide in the series? Regardless, this is completely wrong as we have confirmation Cronos beat Uranus on a fight, which was sourced in my blog.
> Regardless of that he obviously didn't kill him either because Uranus got his head punched off of his body by Thalassa and exploded into stars which is consistent with with the other Primordials getting damaged or dying to create an aspect of nature or the universe, hes never seen fighting again in the intro either which is also coherent with the only living Primordials left fighting, he was one of the two and possibly three which were shown dying
No, Uranus did not die, nor did he explode into stars - you can even see his body intact and falling after the explosio. This assertion is not only pure headcanon, but it makes absolutely no sense for anyone who thinks about it, as Uranus's very son and his wife weren't even born when he fought Ceto (and, no that is not even Thalassa). Gaia was spawned by Chaos just like the Furies were, after the Primordials created the Earth. This very assertion is pure nonsense.
But hey, we can put this headcanon to rest with definitive evidence:
Gyges: "Sired by Uranus, he who gave life to the universe. Torn from the loins of Gaia, mother of all creation. Our father was repulsed by our ugliness and banished us to Tartarus."
There you go. Gyges, Uranus's son, met his father in person well after the Primordial War, so you're simply wrong.
> Nyx has no feats at all the "proof" of Nyx being "universal" comes from another un - sourced website which makes this invalid already
Since this is nonsense and we don't use that to make her Universal, I believe we don't need to waste any time with this bit.
> She may be a Primordial being but so are lots of other characters like Gaia, The Furies, The Sisters of Fate and Thanatos who would all be classed as "Primordial" in the God of War universe but they aren't the same type of Primordial as Uranus who was made of countless stars, Nyx and others like her also have no combat based scaling to the aforementioned, surviving the Primordial war doesn't count as a feat in the same way that people who survive a nuclear war wouldn't get city level durability
You are all over the place.
The Furies aren't Primordial Deities, nor did they fight in the war. They came as a result of said war and, like Gaia, did not partake in it. Gaia isn't a Primordial Deity either, she is a Titan, albeit the oldest Titan. Neither are the Sisters of Fate primordial deities - the Sisters were born from Themis, a Titan.
But titles are completely irrelevant. Afterall, all of those deities scale to Uranus. Gaia is comparable to people who are on his level. The Sisters of Fate are officially stated to be the most powerful deities in God of War's whole lore - "more powerful than the Gods, more powerful than the Titans, more powerful than anyone in the mythological world", as per Cory Barlog. The secondary novels also repeat his statement. And Thanatos fought in the war and thus needed to be comparable, much like Nyx, also per WoG.
And, my god, your nuclear war analogy is a massive false equivalence. As Gaia plainly states in the intro, all the Primordials fought each other. That includes Thanatos and Nyx, the latter of which is shown in Ascension's campaign and multiplayer and was officially meant to be a Primordial Goddess on the same level of the 4 Primordials of the intro, and the former of which must have fought in the war since he is much older than Gaia, who was born as a direct result of the war.
> Just "Giving life" to the universe isn't a universal feat in any way, shape or form in the same way that giving life to a world wouldn't mean creating one, the universe as around before anything in God of War it was just in Chaos.
False. You simply misinterpreted the actual scans. No, the universe wasn't contained in any form of Chaos. The Primordials themselves were born out of Chaos - not the universe itself. In fact, time didn't even exist when their war took place.
And Uranus didn't just "give life" to the universe in the literal sense. He created it. It was just a poetical way of referring to him creating the universe. As Gyges states:
False. Maybe by the standards of Kratos being a 1-tonner that'd be the case, but there are literally countless feats of universal to multiversal power on God of War's lore. It is, outright, a scarily consistent lore rating for them to have.
I really see no point of leaving this thread open. It's just a repeat of all the other threads with no new arguments, just disbelief and uninformed rants.
You are really uninformed about God of War's lore. No offense, but given the fact that literally everyone who was involved in the upgrade (mainly, Kep and I) had already seen your rant and you keep going around saying stuff that has been debunked for ages, there is absolutely no reason for this thread to be kept open. There is not a single thing on your rant that hasn't already been debunked and answered effectively on the thread the upgrade was made in.
This is not /r/CharacterRant. Arguments of AoE and "statements aren't legit" are considered highly fallacious here. If you can't source any of your points, I see no reason not to just shut this dowm. If you had read the threads where the upgrade was made, you could have at the very least come to this thread better prepared.
Let's, however, make a repeat of the other thread and deconstruct the arguments:
> 1 - The timeline scan is completely un - sourced
This has already been refuted above and dropped.
> There is no conformation the [2010 comics](http://godofwar.wikia.com/wiki/God_of_War_(comics) are canon either they weren't made by whoever makes the God of War games
Senior Writer: "The comics were made so that they could work as canon with the games."
So your assertion is, not surprisingly, completely wrong, as Kep said above.
> It doesn't say exactly how the Titan Cronus beat Uranus his Primordial father
And should we make any other assumption other than the default one, by assuming it happened like every single other instance of the Cycle of Patricide in the series? Regardless, this is completely wrong as we have confirmation Cronos beat Uranus on a fight, which was sourced in my blog.
> Regardless of that he obviously didn't kill him either because Uranus got his head punched off of his body by Thalassa and exploded into stars which is consistent with with the other Primordials getting damaged or dying to create an aspect of nature or the universe, hes never seen fighting again in the intro either which is also coherent with the only living Primordials left fighting, he was one of the two and possibly three which were shown dying
No, Uranus did not die, nor did he explode into stars - you can even see his body intact and falling after the explosio. This assertion is not only pure headcanon, but it makes absolutely no sense for anyone who thinks about it, as Uranus's very son and his wife weren't even born when he fought Ceto (and, no that is not even Thalassa). Gaia was spawned by Chaos just like the Furies were, after the Primordials created the Earth. This very assertion is pure nonsense.
But hey, we can put this headcanon to rest with definitive evidence:
Gyges: "Sired by Uranus, he who gave life to the universe. Torn from the loins of Gaia, mother of all creation. Our father was repulsed by our ugliness and banished us to Tartarus."
There you go. Gyges, Uranus's son, met his father in person well after the Primordial War, so you're simply wrong.
> Nyx has no feats at all the "proof" of Nyx being "universal" comes from another un - sourced website which makes this invalid already
Since this is nonsense and we don't use that to make her Universal, I believe we don't need to waste any time with this bit.
> She may be a Primordial being but so are lots of other characters like Gaia, The Furies, The Sisters of Fate and Thanatos who would all be classed as "Primordial" in the God of War universe but they aren't the same type of Primordial as Uranus who was made of countless stars, Nyx and others like her also have no combat based scaling to the aforementioned, surviving the Primordial war doesn't count as a feat in the same way that people who survive a nuclear war wouldn't get city level durability
You are all over the place.
The Furies aren't Primordial Deities, nor did they fight in the war. They came as a result of said war and, like Gaia, did not partake in it. Gaia isn't a Primordial Deity either, she is a Titan, albeit the oldest Titan. Neither are the Sisters of Fate primordial deities - the Sisters were born from Themis, a Titan.
But titles are completely irrelevant. Afterall, all of those deities scale to Uranus. Gaia is comparable to people who are on his level. The Sisters of Fate are officially stated to be the most powerful deities in God of War's whole lore - "more powerful than the Gods, more powerful than the Titans, more powerful than anyone in the mythological world", as per Cory Barlog. The secondary novels also repeat his statement. And Thanatos fought in the war and thus needed to be comparable, much like Nyx, also per WoG.
And, my god, your nuclear war analogy is a massive false equivalence. As Gaia plainly states in the intro, all the Primordials fought each other. That includes Thanatos and Nyx, the latter of which is shown in Ascension's campaign and multiplayer and was officially meant to be a Primordial Goddess on the same level of the 4 Primordials of the intro, and the former of which must have fought in the war since he is much older than Gaia, who was born as a direct result of the war.
> Just "Giving life" to the universe isn't a universal feat in any way, shape or form in the same way that giving life to a world wouldn't mean creating one, the universe as around before anything in God of War it was just in Chaos.
False. You simply misinterpreted the actual scans. No, the universe wasn't contained in any form of Chaos. The Primordials themselves were born out of Chaos - not the universe itself. In fact, time didn't even exist when their war took place.
And Uranus didn't just "give life" to the universe in the literal sense. He created it. It was just a poetical way of referring to him creating the universe. As Gyges states:
- "Then, with your death, we will once again rule all that our father created."
- "This world is the birthright of those who were born to the son of Chaos, father of the universe."
False. Maybe by the standards of Kratos being a 1-tonner that'd be the case, but there are literally countless feats of universal to multiversal power on God of War's lore. It is, outright, a scarily consistent lore rating for them to have.
- Uranus's universal feat
- Hyperion having a spear that can bear the cosmos
- Atlas holding up the universe in his shoulders
- The World Pillar's destruction threatening to revert the whole universe into Chaos, as well as cause all of creation/all that came before to cease
- Helios's light spanning the whole of the Underworld, an infinite plane
- Cronos's birth leading to time coming into existence
- Hercules holding up the universe in Atlas's place for a while
- Thor's first fight with the Serpent, which makes all the 9 realms shake
- Thor's second fight with the Serpent in the future, which literally destroys Yggdrasil, a tree that has every single strand transcend the space-time of all 9 realms, is infinite in size, and holds the 9 realms within its branches.
- Ymir creating all 9 realms, as well as their space-time.
- The Fire Giant Surtr filling the 9 realms with stars and encompassing the entirety of the young cosmos with his heat.
- Ymir's stabbing leading to his blood bursting out and generating a cosmic flood that threatened to literally wipe out the whole of creation and all 9 realms.
- Surtur, while in the process of dying, generating cosmic flames that literally consume all 9 Realms and destroy and then restart the Norse World (all 9 realms)
I really see no point of leaving this thread open. It's just a repeat of all the other threads with no new arguments, just disbelief and uninformed rants.
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Just out of curiosity even if the statements are legitimate how is this not a MASSIVE outlier? It's several infinities greater than any other feat we in any of the games or novels.
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What massive outlier?WeeklyBattles said:
We have 13 feats/statements on that level in the franchise, and those only scale to the God-Tiers. How the hell can that many feats be outliers in such a straightforward and short franchise? We only have 7 games, 2 novels and 1 comicbook, and the writers stay the same.
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Because they're several infinities above anything else in the series? And Kratos consistently needs to put effort into doing far less than that? The number of feats doesn't matter
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Don't all of these feats happen all at once, going off of Kep's comment here?WindGodAcheron said:
Kepekley23 said:
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> The number of feats doesn't matter.
I direct you to: Outlier
And how are they several infinities above anything else? The only feats that aren't on that level are either very casual (I shit you not, Poseidon and Zeus have tier 6 feats by breathing too hard), or are Fodder Feats which have no bearing on the God Tiers.
I direct you to: Outlier
And how are they several infinities above anything else? The only feats that aren't on that level are either very casual (I shit you not, Poseidon and Zeus have tier 6 feats by breathing too hard), or are Fodder Feats which have no bearing on the God Tiers.
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>The number of feats doesn't matter
It kinda does when determining an outlier
It kinda does when determining an outlier
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What? I said the exact opposite.
I said that Uranus's feat was the first Universal feat in the franchise chronologically. They don't happen all at once. The latest feat is from the new game.
I said that Uranus's feat was the first Universal feat in the franchise chronologically. They don't happen all at once. The latest feat is from the new game.
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I don't think its numbers but more the feats being prevelant throughout the series. If the "13 feats" were all done in a small timeframe it doesn't really prove consistency in the verse as a whole.
That said I'm just saying this off of a comment from Kep, so I may be wrong.
That said I'm just saying this off of a comment from Kep, so I may be wrong.
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>The number of feats doesn't matter
Bruh what? The number of feats is the primary point of determining an outlier
As of the thread, I agree with Kep, WGA & others
Bruh what? The number of feats is the primary point of determining an outlier
As of the thread, I agree with Kep, WGA & others
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> Don't all of these feats happen all at once, going off of Kep's comment here?
Not in the slightest. Those feats are all prevalent and stretched out through the series, the latest batch of feats are from the newest game. They didn't all happen at once.
Not in the slightest. Those feats are all prevalent and stretched out through the series, the latest batch of feats are from the newest game. They didn't all happen at once.
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Alright, thank you. I was concerned off of a way Kep phrased the feats. Although I would group together the "batches" of feats that happen really close to each other when counting if we're speaking of consistency.WindGodAcheron said:
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"First chronological feat of 13 feats" was phrased like the 13 feats happened in a single game/story in a short timeframe, apologies for the misunderstanding.Kepekley23 said:
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Oh boy, this'll be interesting, as I person still question the viability of the 2C tiering.
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I personally am neutral on the 2-C rating in itself. It sounds off as someone casually familiar with the games, but at the same time the deeper lore and cosmology might make the in-game depictions of the characters appear weaker than they actually are, similar to Elder Scrolls.
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I mean, happening really close together doesn't invalidate the fact they're separate feats.
Ymir came first. Then he created the 9 realms. Then Surtr came some close but unspecified time after, and filled those realms with stars and heat. Those are 2 separate feats, the fact they're close together in the chronology doesn't change the fact those are two separate characters performing the feats.
Ymir came first. Then he created the 9 realms. Then Surtr came some close but unspecified time after, and filled those realms with stars and heat. Those are 2 separate feats, the fact they're close together in the chronology doesn't change the fact those are two separate characters performing the feats.
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I'm gonna remain neutral. As usual. Imma be blunt, I'm not a fan of GoW's new ratings. But I trust Kep and his judgement enough along with the fact that I got nothing on it to even out my distaste for it.
However, I'm having a hard time believing there's 13-14 feats on this level. If there really were 13-14 unquestionable feats on this level, there wouldn't nearly be as hard of a time getting them there. Heck, there was less backlash for DMC's 3-A rating back in the dark times, and there was just one statement. Legit, DBS has less feats/statements on that level.
However, I'm having a hard time believing there's 13-14 feats on this level. If there really were 13-14 unquestionable feats on this level, there wouldn't nearly be as hard of a time getting them there. Heck, there was less backlash for DMC's 3-A rating back in the dark times, and there was just one statement. Legit, DBS has less feats/statements on that level.
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@Cal
I mean - first of all:
Half of the feats came from the new game which was released the past year, and for half of that year we weren't even aware of the Nine Realms being universe-sized and separate dimensions with their own time. Everyone was thinking planet-sized.
And the other half are lore feats that are a bit hard to find in the lore. I mean, the first feat, coming from the Primordials on the intro is very blunt, but it took quite a while to even find something suggesting the Greek Gods scale, and some of those things came from the Ascension multiplayer - which we only obtained confirmation on its canonicity a couple years or so ago.
I mean - first of all:
Half of the feats came from the new game which was released the past year, and for half of that year we weren't even aware of the Nine Realms being universe-sized and separate dimensions with their own time. Everyone was thinking planet-sized.
And the other half are lore feats that are a bit hard to find in the lore. I mean, the first feat, coming from the Primordials on the intro is very blunt, but it took quite a while to even find something suggesting the Greek Gods scale, and some of those things came from the Ascension multiplayer - which we only obtained confirmation on its canonicity a couple years or so ago.
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This has confused me more, actually.WindGodAcheron said:
And "filling realms with stars and heat" is not a 2-C feat. Creating all the celestial bodies in the universe actually doesn't breech Tier 4 (although with multiple universes it'll probably be on the low end of Tier 3), we only count it as Tier 3 if the space is created with it. It isn't considered 2-C until time is created alongside whatever is inside the universe.
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@Dargoo
Not all the feats are 2-C. Not even close. Nobody tries to use Surtr's first feat to justify 2-C.
There are only 4 2-C feats. All the other feats are tier 3 or low tier 2. Which is why the ratings use an at least 3-A.
Not all the feats are 2-C. Not even close. Nobody tries to use Surtr's first feat to justify 2-C.
There are only 4 2-C feats. All the other feats are tier 3 or low tier 2. Which is why the ratings use an at least 3-A.
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But Surtur's feat isn't even Tier 3-A going by how we treat celestial body creation calculations, assuming Ymir made the realms before he did that.WindGodAcheron said:
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I am fairly sure it'd be low tier 3, but so what? It is a feat that he did passively with his existence. Surtr himself has a feat where he destroys all the 9 realms in a fight with Thor and Odin, leading to the epicentre of Ragnarok.
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I'm just correcting what you claimed that feat was rated at. I made no comment on the other feats' validity.WindGodAcheron said:
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I didn't say that, but you're welcome, I guess.
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