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Kojiro vs Kojiro (Fate vs Ragnarok)

Iapitus_The_Impaler

Iapitus_The_Impaler

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Sasaki Kojiro (Fate Series) vs Sasaki Kojirou (Record of Ragnarok)

This isn't a debate of who would win in a fight but who is more skilled. This is probably gonna be similar to the thread we have between Musashi and Ikki going. I'm putting this in the VS thread board, because I don't know where else to put it. It's too bad they aren't in the same tier, and that Kojiro has smurf stuff, because then we could do an actual match between them

RoR-SasakiKojirou
Lmk if you got any fanart to swap this out with

Fate stay night assassin by ranefea d12rxp0-fullview (1)
 
If RoR Kojiro is a more reactive character then I can instead post skill feats that Nameless Saber scales above, otherwise i can wait for analysis and then respond accordingly
 
Anyway, I'll assume that you've seen the majority of RoR Sasaki's stuff but I'll dive into more detail given the main focus was on his Thousand Image Defense.


For starters Sasaki based his fighting stlye around wildlife and various animals. making his attacks harder to predict as opposed to normal swordsmanship.


Deflects Poseidon's AoE attacks while being at a massive strength and speed disadvantage.


Catches a falling jug of water, reversing it's path, catching it without spilling a single drop.


Causally weaves and evades Poseidon's attacks once again.


Fends off Poseidon's Flood Attack for a short amount of time, attacking Sasaki at every direction while being fast enough to blitz him.


Has fought against multiple extremely skilled Swordsma including his verses Yagyu his verses Sword Saint, and surpasses all of them.


Surpasses everyone his Dojo his own Master while alive, after his death Sasaki skill increased to no ends.


Copies swordsmanship ever clashed against engraves it into his very soul.


Has various sword techniques, ranging but not limited to Tsubame gaeshi Style Tiger's claw etc.

He can also combine all of these techniques to perform deadly blows.


Now let's go into detail about his Thousand Image Defense, it was talked about but it was only focused on Poseidon.


Utilizes his Thousand Image Defense to predict all of Poseidon's moves deflecting each strike while underwater against an opponent who holds nearly every advantage against him.


Stated to be reading several thousands steps of his opponent by Ares. Before his opponent could even move a muscle Sasaki reads several steps ahead viewing himself dying in 18 different ways.


Scans all of Creation, the Slight Trembles in the ground, the vibrations in the Air and even the enitre stage. Said stage is holding all of humanity to ever exist.


Deflects Poseidon's Divine Lightning, while also acting as another feat. Directly stated to have surpassed the limits of Humanity while reaching into the Realm of Gods.
 
Well, Prince pretty damn well stole my thunder here.

The main thing to focus on, however, is that Poseidon is always moving explicitly Faster Than Eye to Sasaki , yet he's still performing every one of those feats against Poseidon, and even assaulting a superior foe via raw skill.

Prince, however, provided all the relevant scans for pretty much all of Sasaki's relevancy
 
Wow these feats seem to grounded and reasonable in comparison to the absurd fate feats I'm gonna get into lol. I'll try to bring a feat to specifically match each of yours and toss in some other cool ones as well, but imma eat dinner first kek

I'm definitely gonna give this series a read
 
In terms of Shimosa, Kojiro has some insane feats, but as far as Nameless Saber and Assassin, Old Man Sasaki literally fought someone better than him in every conceivable way... and won. It's truly astonishing.
 
BakiHanma18 said:
In terms of Shimosa, Kojiro has some insane feats, but as far as Nameless Saber and Assassin, Old Man Sasaki literally fought someone better than him in every conceivable way... and won. It's truly astonishing.
Click to expand...
Yeah but Hozoin is supposed to be able to block attacks from Saver. This is very refreshing tho, I like it
 
I'm gonna start by saying that most of what Kojiro has is from his skills long surpassing human limitatio. Now, of course, on its own this would be impressive but meaningless, however, in the context of fate, he scales above all of the skilled warriors and mages in all of the Nasuverse. I'm gonna be trying to match your points beat for beat with feats from the nasuverse, but where I can't, I'll put in other impressive feats. Some of these will be recycled from the Musashi vs Ikki thread, just a heads up.

Cool, Kojiro's mentality and fighting style allows him to fight in such a way that an enemy will never be able to get used to his attacks/techniques no matter how many times they percieve or analyze them, and this includes analytical precog users and the many skilled swordsman in fate. As for animal arts, one of the people who Kojiro scales up from is Rider (Red Hare) who has mastered every single martial art there is. No matter what situation you put him in, whether that be the vacuum of space, under water, etc. he will still have a martial art to respond to it.

One of the people Kojiro scales above is Lancelot, as user of Eternal Arms Mastery. Now, Lancelot has a bunch of really good skill feats, and if the sword saints weren't a thing, he would be one of the ones I would be nominating for a most skilled list, so expect to see a lot more from him thoughout this lol. Out of his many skill feats, he was able to keep up with Numeral of the Saint amped Gawain despite a massive stat difference on his own. There is also Lancer Purgatorio, who's Eleven stances are such an absolute defense, that they can block attacks from Saver. Here's a little more on Hozoin, which I wrote about in a previous thread:

  • Someone else who Kojiro/Musashi naturally surpass as they have surpassed the bounds of human limitations, is Hozoin. The Lancer of Purgatorio who's noble phantasm, which is just his raw skill and technique btw, is able to cope and repel any technique or attack he encounters within the Nasuverse (obviously he isn't gonna be repelling the incineration of humanity from Goetia, but almost anything else is up for grabs), including basically any of the wierd ass weapons, most OP forms of magecraft, and extensive techniques, he can repel and then immediately follow with a counter attack. Oh btw, it doesn't matter if he has never seen it before. Geronimo's AoE Scorch the Earth Sun Magecraft? Nada. Billy the Kid's ability to slow down time to the point that he will always have time to respond to an enemies attack and line up a shot with time to spare? Gone. The Zabaniya techniques of the Hassan (You can find basically all of them on False Assassi's page)? No good.
Sorry for being so long-winded, but I hope this can successfully respond to the various blocks of Poseiden's attacks from your Kojiro, as well as his thousand image defenses

Yagyu (who just to be clear, is only slightly worse than them, and right on the cusp of surpassing human limitation himself) has a technique that is capable of accounting for all possible outcomes of a situation, and staying a step ahead of all of them. It is so absolute that Musashi had to create a completely new possibility to manage to bypass this technique.

The power copying is impressive. Here's some good stuff from fate on that. Users of Eternal Arms Mastery, such as Lancelot, gain that ability from surpassing the skills of everyone else in their era. This includes Imperial Privilege users, who (depending on the level of the given user) can gain any martial art or skill set they want on a whim. Some of them need a basis to gain a new skill, some of them don't. One of the most notable Imperial Privilege users is Cleopatra, who is a servant so weak that she isn't even supposed to be able to engage in direct combat with other combat applicable servants, but her with her use of IP she can now keep up with most of the Knight Class servants (Sabers, Archers, Lancers, etc. all legendary folks of their craft).

As kind of a counter to Power Copying, Okada Izo the Manslayer, is capable of copying any sword technique or noble phantasm. Of course, there are limitations on this, but they aren't crazy. The techniques have to be Anti-Unit (meaning, he can't copy a tactical nuke or anything like that lol), and they can't be relient on the nature of the weapon itself (meaning, he can't copy Siegfried's Balmung because the release of True Ether comes from the blade itself). Anything other than that is fair game, but even he cannot copy the mystic sword techniques of Musashi or Kojiro.

Before I stop, I'm gonna toss this description I wrote before about some of Lancelot's abilities before in here, so you can get an idea of him:

  • Eternal Arms Mastery users have reached such a state of mastery that their Mind, Body, and Technique/Skill have perfectly merged, and their technique has been ingrained into every facet of their body. Even when insane to the point of not being able to form a proper thought, they can still fight just as well as if they had a clear mind. You could give them all the mental illnesses you can think of and it wouldn't interfere with their combat at all. Lancelot (one of the EAM users) is so skilled that he gained the ability to pick up basically any object that he views as a weapon and use it as if he had trained with it his whole life. His Noble Phantasm, A Knight Does Not Die with Empty Hands, which was sublimated from this allows him to enhance them to the level of a D-rank Noble Phantasm and even allows him to sieze weapons from he enemies, and although the latter two effects are obviously more effects that came with the legend, the ability to use these weapons effectively is all his skill. He could pick up a stappler, chopsticks, a rubber band, a pair of glasses, a tree branch, Guns (keep in mind, he's a knight from medivel times), a fighter jet, etc. and use all of them perfectly for combat.
 
I'm about to head out to work, but I do have the time to address the first claim about surpassing human limitation:

RoR Sasaki, at the beginning of his match, has become Enlightened in terms of swordsmanship, the pinnacle of all that is possible for humanity to achieve to the point that drawing his sword calmed a turbulent swath of waters around the arena he was to fight in.

Regardless of being the peak of what is achievable, becoming an Enlightened swordsman, Sasaki adapts and overcomes to a superior foe in the course of his fight, surpassing his own limits; that is to say, Sasaki was the pinnacle of what would be theoretically, mythically, achievable for humanity insofar as becoming Enlightened, and then proceeded to break through and above that peak anyway.

So if we are comparing base terms of 'beyond human levels of skill', RoR Sasaki has that in aces considering his beginning-of-match-self is considered perfect in the eyes of the traditionally most powerful swordsman in all of humanity in-verse, Musashi; and then Sasaki continually breaks through his own barriers throughout the course of a single match
 
Ikki also has that

The world was forced to acknowledge that beyond-the-common-sense scene with his body technique reaching the superhuman realm.
 
1: I can we can both agree that arguing "surpassing humanity." would be useless to argue given that both Kojiro's have already done so. And that's perfectly fine, no need to waste time by typing shit up again.


2: I'm not sure how consistent that statement is considering Arturia was able to deduce the weaknesses of Nameless Saber's NP ( alebit this was also due to the sword being bent, point being Arturia was able to see the attack incoming.) And Sasaki has the superior prediction abilities between him and her. As for Red Hare, while i do find that interesting he lacks any show feats himself, him having a statement of knowing every single martial art and having counters is nice and all but I'm still not seeing shown feats to back up such a claim. Not to mention I'm questioning the legitimacy of Sasaki scaling to non- swordsman character skill wise given that the two forms of combat are much different. For example, would you say that Sasaki without his sword could match someone like Bazzet or Li in unarmed comabt? Yeah, not really but there are still plenty of Nasu Swordsman that Sasaki should still scale above.


3: Lancelot has some really good shit, and I'm fully aware that he can use anything as an effective weapon. Which is indeed very impressive but that's not too far off from what real humans can do in real life ( obviously not using phone poles and shit for clear reason.) In the Army that's actually something they teach you, the ability to use essentially any nonconventional object as a weapon, this is something that Special Forces such as SEALs are taught while training, hell that's one of the reasons Vets like the John Wick series due to the improvised weapons.


  • I'm also aware of Hozion's feats, he's actually one of my favorite Lancers. But it's worth noting that a lot of what you has just mentioned would fall under the hax category. Him being able to repel shit isn't 100% a skill feat, that's also some type of hax.


4: Yagyu's stuff is actually a very good feat, however it should be noted that Yagyu isn't reading all possible outcomes but rather hundreds to thousands while RoR Sasaki is constantly reading several thousands ahead of his opponent and this ability can grow more potent in battle as seen in his fight against Poseidon.


5 & 6: Well for starters, RoR Sasaki never uses his power copying to copy his opponents movesets. He used it once and that was to take all of the swordsman he's fought while he was alive to combine them into one style. So yeah, won't see me arguing against these points aside from the Okada point you brought up, firstly there's a massive flaw in his copying if memory servers me right. From what i recall Yagyu himself even states that Okada isn't even mastering the shit he copies but simply borrows them. Also Adam's skill copying is much much much more potent than this and Sasaki scales above him in terms of skill.


I probably won't be able to reply to this for the next few hours.
 
>2: I'm not sure how consistent that statement is considering Arturia was able to deduce the weaknesses of Nameless Saber's NP ( alebit this was also due to the sword being bent, point being Arturia was able to see the attack incoming.)

Thats fake sasaki, the one in EoR is true sasaki.
 
The thread is pretty old compared to the last message so I guess I can still answer? I'm not really sure since I only read ragnarok once, but I side with fate sasaki.

In fate/unlimited codes, he is able to defeat berserker despite being way weaker when it comes to parameters: Sasaki has C-E-A, berserker A-A-A, but berserker's mad enhancement and divinity boost his parameters, also, he has his noble phantasm, god's hand, meaning that you have to kill him 12 times, in 12 differents ways (though if the attack is strong enough, you can take several lives in a single hit). Berserker himself is a skilled warrior, even as a berserker, through his eye of the mind.

His profile states that "the perception of his eyes is the best among Servants." as in, his eye of the mind.

He basically reached God (not a divine spirit, the actual "God" of the nasu, the Root) through swordsmanship by making his tsubame gaeshi into something on the level of true magic.


Now, the true Sasaki

He's obviously way stronger than the likes of shuten douji , minamoto no raikou , houzouin inshu , yagyu munenori even though the first 2 are absurdly strong (physically) and still top-tier when it comes to skills and the last 2 are described as peoples that "(have) a spear(smanship) that reaches gods and buddhas" and "(to have) reach(ed) enlightment"/"(to be able to) accomplishes sure-kill while being (executing) just a single attack."

It shouldn't come from his physical abilities either since caster of limbo thinks of him as "just an average swordsman that the sorcerer took a liking to" (this one isn't a quote, but that's pretty much how he desribes him)

While ragnarok sasaki only read thousands of possible outcomes, fate Sasaki's sword represents "infinity", the "infinity" of outcomes of a fight, a path that is in a way superior to the "nothingness" that musashi reached. Yet, that in itself wasn't his limit, during his fight against musashi back in shimousa, they both surpassed the "zero" and the "infinity" and reached a level that none before managed to achieve.

And let's not talk about olympus
 
As much as I dislike skill debates, this does seem to actually be interesting, so here's my two cents:

While RoR Sasaki would definitely be very far into the skill chain in Nasuverse, I overall believe that Fate Sasaki is still well above him, although not by stupendous margins.

So looking at who Fate Sasaki scales above, we have:

  • Red Hare, as already stated. He lacks many feats for the "knows all martial arts" thing, but he did fight a human Li Shuwen who had a combat applicable Sphere Boundary, which is effectively EX Presence Concealment. For context, A+ is far above King Hassa's, which even while nerfed can kill the same guy multiple times before he notices, and loli Jack's, who can apparently hide herself from Chaldea's sensors which could find Goetia's temple while it was outside of the timeline.
  • Li Shuwen. Not only did he fight rather evenly with Red Hare, a rather strong servant, as a 136 or smth like that y/o human, but his Bajiquan makes Kirei's look like absolute garbage in comparision. For context, Kirei can apparently use his Bajiquan to harm servants, although idk if this is the 6-C ones or not, nearly kill Kiritsugi in one hit after completely stomping him even after the former had amped himself with Triple Accel, and deflect bullets, which are far faster than him, while there's blood in his eyes and he's near-death. Finally, even late into Heaven's Feel, Shirou, who had copied the skill and movements of a lot servants by this point, didn't think he could ever hit Kirei.
  • Hozoin as already stated, and with everything I would've really said lol.
  • Karna. He's not only comparable to Hozion in this aspect, but scales above a bunch of other people. Firstly, he only lost to Arjuna, an archer better than Arash who can surpass the limits of the bow as easily as breathing, completely stomped Billy despite his skill being such that he doesn't even need Thunderer to always shoot before his enemy, and whose arrows are described as effectively hominh, because Arjuna sniped him from behind a bunch of guards. Moreover, Karna is generally considered capable of stalemating Gilgamesh in CQC, which is saying something considering the latter's sheer spam potential.
  • Scathath. Firstly, she taught Cu basically everything that made him one of the top 3 lancers. Her main feats are basically constantly killing Divine Spirits, which, admittedly, vary quite a lot, but are almost universally far, far stronger than normal servants, even if they are physically weak. Her Wisdom of the Haunted Grounds skill also allows her to utilize basically any skill that isn't limited to a single servant through sheer knowledge alone.
And this is all before we factor Infinity and even base Sasaki's skill being ludicrously superior to everyone listed above. His main thing is Tsubame Gaeshi, which is certainly worth discussing. It's outright stated to be an application of Second Magic, something that can normally only be used be reaching The Root, that bends the laws of physics, even when he used it as a human. Additionally, he's basically perfectly equal with Musashi, whose technique is such that it bends fate, karma, and causality easily and is comparable to True Magic. Additionally, Sasaki should be significantly above Murasama, who can cut concepts, dimensions, and causality, even,without a sword, through sheer ability.

Then we have Infinity, which is a borderline-impromptu improvement to Tsubame Gaeshi created in the final confrontation with Musashi. Rather than striking thrice at once, Infinity allows him to respond to any attack with infinite answers and a blade that is one with Endlessness and accepts all possibilities. In this state as well, his technique is stated to be above space, time, and existence, which is what allows for the infinite simultaneous attacks.
 
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