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Can changes be added to the profile?
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I'm on it
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Done, you can close
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My apologies for interrupting, but I just checked through the recent edits in our Knull wiki page, and the evidence seems weak at best. Beyond-Dimensional Existence is a very extreme ability, and being described as a threat to time and space and a handbook mention of the Celestials exceeding conventional understanding of time and space (which can technically just be Low 2-C), does not seem nearly explicit and extreme enough, especially as interpreting it in the manner described here would have all of them exceed Multiversal Eternity in scale, which is not reasonable.
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look, sir, knull is the sensitivity of the abyss, that is, the incarnation of the abyss, the abyss is a void that is layered on top of marvel 1a and contains the concept of darkness, so if we look at the nature of knull, it is far, far beyond space and time. and the fact that it poses a threat to time space and kills transcendent celestials that can control spacetime supports this issue and also supports the bond with the abyss everyone here has already agreed so there is nothing to disagree with
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The nature of the character is already far, far beyond space and time, killing celestials who transcend space and time supports this situation and it supports this issue as a threat to all space-time. knull should get BDE type 2 and everyone who wrote here accepted it
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No, not exactly. The current BDE is not as OP as before. I also don't understand the connection between scaling Knull above Mutli Eternity just because he has BDE type 2. Type 2 only gives resistance to time and spatial manipulations and has the same benefits of type 1 which is not OP as before as well.
And we already know that Knull is the embodiment of the Abyss. And I guess I don't need to tell you that the Abyss is a timeless void - At least this is an extra evidence supporting for BDE.
Besides these, the Abyss is already a place beyond characters like Beyonder who is far beyond space and time.
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I thought that beyond-dimensional existence automatically requires actuallly transcending all of the spatial and temporal dimensions in a specific verse, which are comprised by multiversal Eternity as far as I am aware.
Also, the provided evidence seems more like figures of speech, hyperbole, or allegories rather than something to be taken literally, especially given that even the power of Captain Universe was able to kill Knull.
Also, the provided evidence seems more like figures of speech, hyperbole, or allegories rather than something to be taken literally, especially given that even the power of Captain Universe was able to kill Knull.
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Even if you are only transcendent/superior and independent of a certain space-time, that is enough for BDE type 2. At least by current standards.
Well, I can't help with that. I guess it would be better for Roirr to respond to this
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Neutral, but inclined to agree with this, to me it seems legit.
Georredannea15
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By current standards, you don't need transcendent spatio-temporal dimensions for any BDE. If you are independent, superior and lack of an any level space-time dimensions, you qualify for BDE Type 2. And you don't need qualitative transcendence for that either.
I can't say anything about this, I don't have a command of this verse.
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I extremely disagree, from what I can tell his void is at best, independent from space-time, but is in no way superior. And he doesn't scale to the celestials in any way, anyone can can a BDE Type 2 being if they are strong enough and have the range.
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Without having enough information about it I find it wrong for you to talk about Abyss
on the other hand, the abyss is a void that gain layer in 1a and qualitatively transcendence Beyonder, Omega Ivory Kings and Whr.
As for the Celestials, they transcend space and time and can control space and time.
The fact that Knull kills them without any difficulty supports this point
Also Knull himself is a threat to all of space-time, support this
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Sir, the statements are absolutely not hyperbole. Knull is a character who is far, far beyond space and time because of his nature with Abyss and the fact that he is a threat to all space and time and that he kills celestials who can control space and time and transcend space and time supports this point. So what I'm saying is that Knull's nature is already far, far beyond space and time because of the Abyss. And my arguments above support this point. Also, I think you think Knull is dead. Knull is not dead, he is the embodiment of Abyss, so Abyss can take a physical form again. Which means Knull can come back. To destroy Knull permanently, you need to destroy Abyss. The Abyss is a void that embodies the concept of darkness associated with the Outside Oblivion in the Defenders Beyond series and takes a baseline from 1-A. Just like the concept of darkness within it, on the other hand, you cannot dismiss the issue here because of Uni Venom. Just as Knull scales from the concept of darkness, Uni Venom, the God of Light, scales from the concept of light. Also, in equitable circumstances, Knull killed the first skin of God of Light and then that power chose Eddie. This was also shown to us in King in Black.
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It doesn't say 1-A on their profile, so I'm interested in the scans for that.
I can kill someone who transcends duality, and controls it, it doesn't mean I have transduality. I can threaten duality as well, but it doesn't mean I am transdual.
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Knull has nothing to do with the example you gave. Transduality is not only something you can get as a superior to dualities, you also need to be independent. And we only use his killing Celestial to prove that he is superior to Spacetime. The argument for independence is different.
So, Knull is the embodiment of the Abyss, which lacks spatial and temporal features, and at the same time is superior to characters who are superior to Space-Time.
And frankly there seems to be enough evidence for prove these
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Knull was killed by Captain Universe, and would likely have been defeated by Thor as well without a surprise attack from behind. He definitely did not seem to be anywhere near tier 1-A.
Can somebody explain the rationale for why any character that transcends a single universal space-time should get BDE now. It seems unreliable.
@Qawsedf234 @Deagonx @Firestorm808
Are any of you willing to help out here please?
Can somebody explain the rationale for why any character that transcends a single universal space-time should get BDE now. It seems unreliable.
@Qawsedf234 @Deagonx @Firestorm808
Are any of you willing to help out here please?
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And I'm asking for scans saying he lacks spatial and temporal features and the showings that he transcends those who transcend space-time.
Georredannea15
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Georredannea15
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I see. Like I said, at the end of the day, the decision is up to you.
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The fact that he's the embodiment of the Abyss is enough for this. The Abyss(in Marvel) by definition already lacks the features of spatial and temporal things.
You don't need to transcend those who transcend it to be superior to something. Being stronger than those who transcend it will still make you superior to that thing.
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That is not how these things work for Marvel. Just because a character defeats another character they do not automatically scale to all of that character's inherent traits, and Celestials have also not remotely consistently been treated as beyond-dimensional entities as far as I recall.
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I'm asking for scans, and evidence, if it's by definition, then show me where that definition is stated.
No, when we say superior, we mean qualitatively, not that you can punch harder.
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I don't understand how you can look at it as if he only defeated them. The OP doesn't only say that he defeated the Celestials. It also says that he is a threat to space and time by his very nature. At the very least, he should have a possibly rating
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We have to wait for Roirr for the scan part. Unfortunately I don't have those scans atm, so I'll leave this part to him.
BDE does not require qualitative superiority. A normal superiority is enough for this
Not trying to be a whataboutist, but Ygdrassil's BDE was accepted even though it's transcendence is not counted as a qualitative superiority
Georredannea15
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Uhhhh... Nah
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Being a threat to space and time was extreme hyperbole given the displayed actual scale of the Knull character, and even if it was accurate, it still wouldn't automatically mean beyond-dimensional existence for Knull any more than it does for Son Goku. Thst is not how our system works.
This is wasting too much time and will not lead anywhere, so I would much prefer to close this thread now.
This is wasting too much time and will not lead anywhere, so I would much prefer to close this thread now.
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Uhh, yes. I don't know why you think you wouldn't need some kind of transcendence to get BDE Type 2, when the whole concept of BDE Type 2 is that superiority is required unlike BDE Type 1.
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Sir, my main argument here was that Knull is beyond space and time because of his nature with the Abyss. and the scan where Knull is mentioned as a threat to all of space and time I only put it in because I thought it would support this point I didn't think you would reject it because of those scans. I want to touch on the scan about the celestieal you know Celestieals are beyond space and time Knull killed some of them and Celestials could not undo what Knull did by time manip or any other hax because Knull is not bound on space or time. If Knull were bound on space and time, Celestials could undo what Knull did by manipulating time, Celestials could bring back their dead members, but they could not do that because Knull is the embodiment of the abyss, because Knulls nature above space and time, and bde is a hax that provides resistance to space and time manipulations.We don't seem to be able to get anywhere further here, so I will close this thread now. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.
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sir, knull didn't have his main weapon in that fight, although he had the upper hand in that fight, wouldn't it be partially interpreted to say that he would also defeat thor knull? And I want to point out that if silver surfer and uni venom hadn't intervened in that fight, technically no one would know how the fight would end, although knull had the upper hand..
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@Deagonx @Qawsedf234 @Sir_Ovens @Maverick_Zero_X @Emirp sumitpo @Firestorm808 @Elizio33
What do you think about this?
What do you think about this?
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I think Type 2 Beyond Dimensional Existence makes sense in the context. I understand KLOL's concerns but I think being a threat to all space and time is decent enough evidence.
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Well, I suppose I'm taking the angle that if a being is a threat to all space and time, it would generally be the case that he is above it unless we assume that were he to actualize his threat, he himself would also be destroyed. I tend to think that isn't the ideal interpretation, but I agree that it isn't concrete.
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