Kisuke vs Rick (Smoking Genius vs Alcoholic Genius) 8-0-0

[Arcker123]

I'm also skeptical on Reiatsu alone being called a passive wincon tbh, as it would just lead to Kisuke sealing Rick, not really winning in it of itself, which was the main wincon. Reiatsu was argued to just prevent Rick from using portals and active tech and such but I digress.

Yeah so Grace has started, if anyone else want's to discuss if this is a stomp then we can.

Edit: If Reiatsu does prevent operation Phoniex from working if it kills Rick then yeah this is a stomp Ig. I just think that kisuke would be more inclined to seal Rick instead of killing him if he has knowledge.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I agree that both characters are prep time monsters.

 

[Bastolan27]

Count my vote.
Kisuke

 

[Mand21]

If both have wincons, isn't it automatically not a stomp? Even if it's a one-shot, both can one-shot but some one-shots are easier than others.

 

[Arcker123]

Grace has ended but I’m unsure if I have the clear to add.

I will bump this for more agreement on the stomp issue and an answer to Gin’s claim.

 

[Phoenks]

Does Operation Phoneix allow Rick to recover from mind, body and soul destruction? Remember RC targets all 3 fundamental aspects, if the main Rick gets his mind and memories destroyed he wouldn't have his memories to continue the fight. After being exposed and killed by RC he wouldn't Remember Kisuke existed.

It's a weird topic.

Rick's cloning is purely technology and science based and doesn't really involve abstract stuff like that. If you equalize the verse's you could just say that he's rebuilding everything, including the mind and soul, in his clones. Which would make sense, considering he can rebuild a perfectly new body in a entirely different universe. If not that I'd just say he doesn't even have an abstract mind or soul to even affect in the first place given the nature of the series.

As for how his memories remain, given it's basis in science I'd say it's more like he transfers information (type 1) to a new brain, rather than transferring some abstract mind/soul or conscious.

In fact actually, as I'm writing his I have remembered episode 1 of season 3 where he does do exactly that. Transferring information to another species' brain, and then to another Rick's brain multiple times.

So that's almost certainly how it works, rather than relying on mind/soul.

I personally would say the whole mind soul destruction thing doesn't matter.

 

[Phoenks]

Furthermore, even if you made the argument that the information would be erased, it's extremely likely that Rick would have multiple backup protocols in place for if he was to lose that information.

Which then makes me wonder what exactly even counts as the real Rick in this fight.

He could have countless backup things that technically count as the real "Rick" being the same in every way, and he has other ways to transfer information. There was a time in Season 3 where he was just acting as another Rick the entire time.

It's a very difficult match to discuss.

 

[Arcker123]

Eh, if we agree to that we can probably add this as this has been over for days

 

[Phoenks]

Eh, if we agree to that we can probably add this as this has been over for days

Agree to what exactly?

 

[Arcker123]

Agree to what exactly?

Reiatsu crush wouldn't neccesarily kill Rick beyond the pheonix project.

 

[Phoenks]

Reiatsu crush wouldn't neccesarily kill Rick beyond the pheonix project.

I mean, even if we agree to that, there's still much to discuss.

Like what counts as Rick Sanchez in the first place

 

[Arcker123]

I mean, even if we agree to that, there's still much to discuss.

I said that because Grace has been long over. If that argument for it being a stomp is disputed, this match should've been added a while ago.

 

[Phoenks]

I said that because Grace has been long over. If that argument for it being a stomp is disputed, this match should've been added a while ago.

You were arguing in favor of a stomp. A passive that prevents all chance of victory from the other side results in a stomp.

But that's mostly irrelevant this fight requires more discussion in general.

Like if it isn't even certain that Kisuke would make a Hogyoku thing whatever then there is an entirely different angle to discuss.

 

[Arcker123]

You were arguing in favor of a stomp. A passive that prevents all chance of victory from the other side results in a stomp.

You can continue to repeat that claim but several of the voters and myself have already explained why we think this matches scenario isn't a stomp according to the rules. Your dissent alone isn't convincing and thus isn't reason this can't be added.

But that's mostly irrelevant this fight requires more discussion in general.

The match is over .

Like if it isn't even certain that Kisuke would make a Hogyoku thing whatever then there is an entirely different angle to discuss.

Yeah I already gave an argument to Gin about that already .

 

[Phoenks]

You can continue to repeat that claim but several of the voters and myself have already explained why we think this matches scenario isn't a stomp according to the rules. Your dissent alone isn't convincing and thus isn't reason this can't be added.

What does it matter if it's you being wrong or them being wrong, you're still all wrong.



It is outlined on the stomp page that a passive that prevents the other side from winning no matter what is an example of a stomp.

 

[Arcker123]

What does it matter if it's you being wrong or them being wrong, you're still all wrong.

In a wiki where majority opinion seems to be the only way shit can actually gets put to profiles, the fact your argument fails to convince a majority means it's not accepted.

It is outlined on the stomp page that a passive that prevents the other side from winning no matter what is an example of a stomp.

Yeah I refuted that by explaining why the rule you presented is disanalagous to this match.

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah I refuted that by explaining why the rule you presented is disanalagous to this match.

It's not, though, the point of that example is to explain why a passive that prevents victory regardless of circumstance is a stomp.

"Majority" doesn't matter if it is against the actual page.

Though clearly it seems the page needs an update if you're able to misunderstand it to this extent.

 

[Arcker123]

It's not, though, the point of that example is to explain why a passive that prevents victory regardless of circumstance is a stomp.

"Majority" doesn't matter if it is against the actual page.

The majority disagrees with your interpretation of the rules obviously and agrees with what I said about your claim. You've failed to convincingly argue this is a stomp to anyone.

Though clearly it seems the page needs an update if your able to misunderstand it to this extent.

So refute my argument instead of coping. You're just repeating your claims.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

If a match is 100% in favour of one party, it is a stomp.

Stomp matches are NOT added to profiles

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

What's the difference between this and the Zeref thread? From what Deceived said it was closed due to a stomp even though Aizen had no way of killing Zeref but he passively stomped him due to soul crush.

This is a stomp

 

[Phoenks]

Right, so any vote that was dependent on Arcker's reasoning shouldn't be counted as he was arguing in favor of a 100% chance victory for Kisuke.

 

[Arcker123]

If a match is 100% in favour of one party, it is a stomp.

Where in the page does it say that?

I just said that Kisuke would win 100% of the time, not that it's completely one sided or anything. You can have a decisive match like this where the debate is extensive but the outcome is 100% certain.

What's the difference between this and the Zeref thread? From what Deceived said it was closed due to a stomp even though Aizen had no way of killing Zeref but he passively stomped him due to soul crush.

This is a stomp

Because Rick was argued to have his own instant win cons

 

[SeijiSetto]

I'm skeptical of being a size alone giving you a tier.

literally no dog in this match, but Large Size Calculations are a thing

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

A stomp is a completely one-sided match-up where one participant absolutely thrashes the other with little to no effort. Please keep in mind that such match-ups are not allowed. Source

Kindly do not create spite or stomp threads, whether by tier, speed or an absurd difference in hax proficiency (that is, a very hax character vs one with little to no hax) unless the other character possesses abilities that compensate for this advantage. Source

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Where in the page does it say that?

I just said that Kisuke would win 100% of the time, not that it's completely one sided or anything. You can have a decisive match like this where the debate is extensive but the outcome is 100% certain.

Because Rick was argued to have his own instant win cons

Hmmm but doesn't that decisive come from basically just existing? Hax stomp no? If the latter can't do anything about it

 

[Arcker123]

A stomp is a completely one-sided match-up where one participant absolutely thrashes the other with little to no effort. Please keep in mind that such match-ups are not allowed. Source

Kindly do not create spite or stomp threads, whether by tier, speed or an absurd difference in hax proficiency (that is, a very hax character vs one with little to no hax) unless the other character possesses abilities that compensate for this advantage. Source

None of this refutes my claim or supports yours at all. A match with a 100% isn't neccesarily one sided thrashing, it's can be decisive depending on context.

It seems clear that RIck's abilities could compensate, but are inferior and thus wouldn't.

Hmmm but doesn't that decisive come from basically just existing? Hax stomp no? If the latter can't do anything about it

I don't think so if Rick is argued to have instant wincons? Especially given that the passive shit argued for kisuke weren't neccessarily wincons, but just allowed him to use his wincons like sealing.

 

[Arcker123]

literally no dog in this match, but Large Size Calculations are a thing

Was unaware of this. Mb.

 

[Phoenks]

I don't think so if Rick is argued to have instant wincons? Especially given that the passive shit argued for kisuke weren't neccessarily wincons, but just allowed him to use his wincons like sealing.

Your argument prevented any of these "instant win-cons" from taking place as per your own logic. Or are you going to backtrack?

 

[Arcker123]

Your argument prevented any of these "instant win-cons" from taking place as per your own logic. Or are you going to backtrack?

Just because they are countered doesn't make them not wincons, as I've been arguing this whole time, it just means Rick loses very decisively. This doesn't counter anything I said.

 

[Phoenks]

Just because they are countered doesn't make them not wincons, as I've been arguing this whole time, it just means Rick loses very decisively. This doesn't counter anything I said.

If they are countered 100% of the time then it's a stomp as Rick has no chance to do anything (they aren't win cons in the first place by this logic), as Kru and I have pointed out.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Don't you understand what a 100% chance even means? It means that they win for certain and therefore by definition means that it's a stomp.

If you're unwilling to accept basic logic, then perhaps vs debating isn't something you should be getting into.

Anyway, I'm closing this thread as it’s pretty clear the match is a stomp and can't be added.