Just let us know when the blog is complete.
Oh, you're anticipating it? My intention with the blog post was for it to be a last resort, in case this thread's discussion becomes too confusing for anyone to know what points against the proposal have been presented, and if staff members are unable to keep track of what's going on. I don't think it has gotten to that point just yet, so for now I don't intend to share what I have prepared. The points themselves are ones I have shared in this thread already, so if you remember them then don't worry about missing out on anything.
I just feel that each side having a solid list of arguments would make things less complicated.
Yeah. I recommend that other people should tell me if they agree that I should skip straight to finalizing the blog post and sharing it, or if they think it would be unnecessary.
Ok, though since Deluxe comes out in 2 days I still think we should wait for it to see if it can help conclude this thread.
Would a 4D upgrade change anything power-wise (like the number of universes Kirby scales to)?
Most likely neither
Another Dimension is also already acknowledged to have a special connection to dimensional rifts and such things, which are 4D objects.
Another Dimension can exist within a 4D place while still being a tier 2-C multiverse. My comparison to Popeye from a while ago still holds up, although I'm changing the point a bit here to suit the circumstance. The monster Popeye fought was an entity from the seventh dimension who wasn't seventh-dimensionally strong and who was normal sized to the standards of the third dimension, like how Another Dimension is likely smaller than 4D but located within a 4D location, or a location that transcends 4D while not reaching 5D. This would only be an upgrade to the methods of traveling to Another Dimension rather than an upgrade to the cosmology. I don't even recommend an upgrade like that, since this is just one among other ways the statements about Another Dimension can be interpreted.
My point about Another Dimension's size answers this too.
Another Dimension as a whole is a multiverse. The whole of a multiverse is bigger than the individual universes inside it. That's just how multiverses work. Another Dimension being stated to be beyond space doesn't recontextualize the idea that universes within a multiverse are smaller than the entirety of the multiverse, since there's normally no other way a multiverse can be structured anyway. The minimum tier for a multiverse is tier 2-C, like Another Dimension already is regarded as, and like I've been writing the entire time. Another Dimension is already 4D, and attempting to upgrade the cosmology further into a 4D tier would involve proving that it has more universes within it or that its entirety is the size of a larger number of universes, which you aren't doing.
I have nothing else to write here then.
I don't disagree with it, so I can skip this.
I have nothing else to write here then.
The statement needs to have evidence of referring to Another Dimension's size, and evidence of being more than just a dramatization that is being given the benefit of the doubt by some people, which we don't have. (See the next paragraph if you have doubts about that.)
No, the background elements aren't depictions of universes. It is headcanon. The only evidence anyone has presented of them being universes is that a blog post of Eficiente's wrote that they are universes, even though he actually wrote that they are planets. The characters on Landia flew through Another Dimension, through multiple universes as a subtle detail, seeing parallel versions of Planet Popstar and Halcandra in the background. (That's what the blog post conveys.) I've written in the past that even this is a stretch, but that's not bad since it's meant to be supporting evidence among better evidence of the fact that Another Dimension's dimensions are universes instead of realities of an unknown size, which is not referring to the background elements that you're referring to, and is instead referring to the entire locations that the characters travel within.
Did either of you 2 find anything yet from the Deluxe remake that is related to this thread?
Vs Grand Doomer
Well...there's magolor's epilogue
Well, no.
The people who are on the side of the 5D cosmology upgrade now need to modify or reconsider their stance as a result of one of their notable justifications being disproven. At this point, Eficiente confirmed that his blog post was being misinterpreted by those people. (It was post number 1013 in response to the previous one posted by me.) I've only seen the people use that blog post as their proof of Another Dimension's background depictions of other locations being universes, but now that we know for sure that it isn't what the blog post conveys, that idea seems to have no proof.
Okay. That seems to make sense.
Another Dimension was established to be 4D before this thread was even made.
CloverGoat03 at it again.
It's useful information to disprove something that I wrote as a counter-argument, since the new context of "As the skies over Nutty Noon began to warp [...]" combined with the already existing information of the background ending up as the Another Dimension one implies that rather than Kirby using a Warp Star to directly travel to somewhere in Another Dimension, that Warp Star instead only flew to Nutty Noon's sky that so happened to be fusing with Another Dimension as a dimensional rift phenomenon or something similar. However, this doesn't change how the premise of the "naturally inaccessible" argument is erroneous in the first place. It can be rephrased for clarification purposes as "characters who can't naturally dimensional travel exclusively use wormhole to travel to a specific other macrocosm, therefore that other macrocosm has a degree of unreachability that implies it's 5D", but no, this doesn't even imply that the macrocosm is 4D. It's plainly just characters not being capable of interdimensional travel unless they find the means to do so.
What "special connection" are you referring to exactly? The dimensional rifts are just holes to Another Dimension. This is what they're called in Japanese. There's nothing more to them.
I ask again. What else could the superiority be in relation to when every other option brought up has already been debunked by the translation? The Popeye comparison doesn't work here because there's no relationship of superiority between anything. All we know is the some dude comes from the 7th dimension. That doesn't necessarily mean he's 7 dimensional or even that he comes from a place with 7 mathematical axes.
How so? The FAQ says that a realm qualitatively superior to 4D is 5D. Why then, would a realm superior to 4D be assumed to be 3D instead of a larger 4D hypervolume?
Exactly, we know that AD's space has a larger scope than the space of the timelines within it. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that it must also have a larger scope than the time of those timelines.
Planets which we know to be located in different universes. Planets which are meant to illustrate each of the Doomer dimensions Kirby explored in the game up to this point.
Like I said, the images are visual representations of those "entire locations that the characters travel within". As pointed out months ago, they're not portals either. Portals in AD are consistantly dimensional rifts that look absolutely nothing like this.
In this case, we have several statements of superiority. One statement of qualitative superiority, and two pieces of contextual evidence for additional support.
Different universes on the same level of the dimensional hierarchy are still on different planes of existence. The default with dimensional travel is interdimensional range unless there is evidence of more range. The "move through alternate universes (or "dimensions")" part even means that the page considers "dimensions" synonymous with "universes".
Dimensional rifts in general aren't tied to a specific place, but in Kirby's series they're strongly associated with Another Dimension and its nature.
What I wrote answered this already. I'll reiterate here. Another Dimension with the evidence of it being tier 2-C and with the statements of superiority referring to it being better than 4D can mean that it's within a location beyond 4D while not being that big itself, like how the monster that Popeye fought could've been from a 7D place despite it being a 3D creature. Being from a higher-dimensional location is impressive, especially if this implies some sort of long reach that would otherwise be impossible. If you want to prove Another Dimension as better than 4D, you need evidence of Another Dimension being in a higher level on the dimensional hierarchy to mean something like that it is that level on the dimensional hierarchy or that it's as big as it.
What I wrote in the previous paragraph also answers this. Basically, we don't know that the realm is superior to 4D just because "it exceeds" 4D on the dimensional hierarchy, because there are many different ways that could've been meant. You assume that it means the realm's size is so big that it's physically higher-dimensional, and that the statements refer to the volume of Another Dimension, when this wasn't clarified in the statements.
The logic you're trying to make me understand, as if I somehow didn't already understand it, would lead to the conclusion that all multiverses default to being better than 4D. Individual universes have individual temporal dimensions, and a multiverse is bigger than all of them, so you can consider the multiverse of larger scope than those temporal dimensions, like it's of larger scope than the space of individual universes. This is just common sense. What you fail to recognize is that this "scope" doesn't prove anything about whether or not a macrocosm is better than 4D, since the scope only has to do with its size on a 4D scale. To be 5D is to be infinitely bigger than / superior to 4D infinity, and to be better than 4D is probably to be bigger than 4D infinity in some way. Your argument is that Another Dimension is better than 4D for being bigger than a few universes, while also presenting the fact that it's been stated to exceed 4D on the dimensional hierarchy in a way that you assume is its size. Being bigger than a few universes is just tier 2-C, so it in no way supports the statements about its transcendence either way.
Prove it. Eficiente confirmed that his blog post doesn't convey this, and I've only ever seen that blog post be used as "evidence". The VS Battles Wiki regards those illustrations of previous locations the heroes went to as just planets, maybe a clairvoyant view of them, et cetera. Those illustrations are not the universes; the universes are what those illustrations are in, what the other celestial bodies are in, and what the characters were in while the illustrations were visible, similar to the locations that the Sphere Doomers were fought in. So, if you want to propose otherwise, you need to actually prove that those storyless fading projections in the background are the universes of Another Dimension, rather than assert that they are universes. If you can't prove it, then the idea is just headcanon.
With all that has been established by me, we have several statements of superiority that aren't specific enough to be used as evidence for Another Dimension being 5D without better information, and we have zero contextual evidence for support.
Wznt this to be over so badly
If we have supporting statements of transcendence, in-game evidence of being naturally inaccessible from even a 4-D plane (such as Kirby’s dimension or the 15/16 other dimensions, both of which are accepted as 4-D structure; they require the opening of rifts in Another Dimension, and for reference, the Kirby series does make a distinction between dimensional rifts and standard portals), and said 4-D structures being contained within Another Dimension as a small part of it (much like a smaller circle being contained in a bigger circle), I’d say qualitative superiority is a given.
