Either way, it's an upgrade (right now, AD is just considered a wacky 3D road with wierd space-time shenanigans going on). If it's superior to the mathematical dimensions in the verse, it's qualitatively superior and 5D by definition. So it's simply a matter of translation. TheNinthHour and ZeroTwo provided exactly that. Those who disagree with the upgrade either ignore those translations or say they're irrelevant for reasons I debunked in my red paragraph.
The VS Battles Wiki determined those based on their guidelines, like how they should determine this thread's proposal to be wrong using the same logic. If a character is from the seventh dimension, which is supposed to be many times infinitely transcendent to 3D, then logically they should be big to the standards of being portrayed as higher-dimensional, yet the enemy was comparable in size to Popeye, who is a 3D character.These are very faulty examples. Because in these cases:
- The characters deemed to not be High 3-A were deemed that way because their statements of infinite power were agreed to be hyperbolic, thus they don't actually have infinite power (I gave you a rhetorical answer
)
- Being from the 7th dimension =/= Actually being 7-D, those are different things, and that's what VSBW determined
Me too.
Argument from repetition. As I explained in post number 820, those fading projections being "numerous 4D structures" can't be proven, and as I revealed in post number 832, Eficiente's blog post considers them planets.
How do you know that it doesn't have Pi spatial dimensions and is located somewhere within 3D cosmology but is bigger than time compared to all other worlds, while not reaching 5D? The statements could mean anything. Just because something can be meant in a way by definition, doesn't mean it's always meant in dictionary terms, or in that specific definition that you have in mind. I've explained this before.
Said blog post states that the dimensions within Another Dimension are universes. You know, the same dimensions depicted in Another Dimension as these fading projections.
Eficiente's point being "the dimensions within Another Dimension are universes" is synonymous to "I'm clarifying that Another Dimension is a multiverse by proving that the mention of "dimension" is synonymous to "universe" instead of "reality of an unknown size"", not "the projections seen within the Another Dimension stage of Kirby's Return to Dream Land are universes". This is referring to stuff like the different dimensions in Heroes in Another Dimension being separate universes instead of different parts of one universe.
Looking at the Master Crown's profile, this is not the case, as the 15 to 16 dimensions actually refers to the ones in which the Sphere Doomers are fought. In addition, it's noteworthy that these universes are merely a part of Another Dimension
Fair point. That said, I don't think your stance necessarily disproves mine, as all of the dimensions within Another Dimension are portrayed in this fading projection-esque manner. Given that all the dimensions you fight the Sphere Doomers in are considered to be universes, you'd require a higher preponderance of evidence to claim that these other dimensions are not that way as well.
Those dimensions that the Sphere Doomers were fought in are not the fading projections found in the Another Dimension stage of Kirby's Return to Dream Land. The whole thing with "likely Low Multiverse level" being on the profiles is because it's likely that Kirby's Return to Dream Land treated its dimensional rift events like how Heroes in Another Dimension did, not that Another Dimension has fading projections that are universes within it. I asked Eficiente to clarify if I'm interpreting his blog post properly, so let's wait and see.
What I wrote above in this message answers this quote too.
I'll preface my response by saying that I'm perfectly fine with waiting for Eficiente to clarify if your interpretation is correct, but my belief is that given that these dimensions the Sphere Doomers are fought in are ones contained within Another Dimension like the fading projection-esque ones, it can be reasonably assumed that they're all universes. Nothing remotely implies that they're different from one another, and all the dimensions within AD have a number of similarities to them, including similar backgrounds and such. The only difference between the dimensions the Sphere Doomers are fought in and other dimensions in AD is that the former ones are grayscale
Alright. As for my belief, like I briefly mentioned in a previous post, I even consider it questionable to regard those projections as planets like I think Eficiente does, but it's a more agreeable interpretation than this thread's proposal because it doesn't risk overstating what ambiguous background elements are. Anyway, let's just wait now. I assure you that Antvasima will probably eventually "@" Eficiente if we're waiting too long.
The way I see what's going on at this point is that, in order for Another Dimension to have any chance at being upgraded in any way that has been proposed, the people who want that outcome need to prove that the fading projections of previous locations Kirby visited are timelines or universes within Another Dimension. Two different people claimed that the fading projections are already accepted as universes that Another Dimension treats as small, but I don't see that being the case.
Thank you very much for helping out. That is probably fine to apply then.
Same Ig.
Okay. Thank you for the information.
Okay, but after that you will have to relent, so we can finally end this.
I mean, it'd be support for Kirby being flat-out 2-C and not "likely".
Pretty sure the likely is less it's unsure how large the Kirby cosmology is, and more unsure of how far Magalor's destruction extended to. So this doesn't change anything.
go unchallenged is clear evidence that none of you are paying attention. AD is currently being regarded as a 3D road with wacky space-time shenanigans happening in it to allow for time travel. Almost everyone here agrees either implicitly or explicitly that AD is 4D, and yet you somehow believe this upgrade changes nothing. Are you still not aware that AD is currently deemed 3D on this site? Let me make it extra clear then: AD is currently accepted as a 3D road on this site. This thread will make it 4D, as we all know it should be (even if you disagree with 5D). AD is superior to 4D space-time. That claim has never been challenged ever since the last translation has been posted 2 or 3 pages ago. The only thing that has been contested in any way is how profound that superiority actually is. Something I will address in my next post if I have to.
I haven't written anything about that because tier 2 is where 4D details are covered in the Tiering System, so I haven't gotten any ideas about why it's different than how it already is. Just the quote that it's "a 3D road with wacky space-time shenanigans" already implies that there are some 4D elements in it. Time travel is inherently 4D in some way, even if that detail goes unmentioned. I don't know about explicitly acknowledging it as a 4D structure though, since I was focused on the 5D upgrade. Some people were still wondering about whether or not it was going to happen, so I attempted to get that out of the way. At this point, I think you can focus on explaining why you think Another Dimension should be upgraded to 4D, if you've let go of upgrading it to 5D.
It means that now we know how time travel in AD works, and we know that it extends physically throughout time itself. That means the overall scope of the explored cosmology is bigger. It doesn't affect Magolor's 2-C feat, but it carries other implications that we can go over if we ever manage to lay this topic to rest.
Well then the statements of superiority to the 4D space-time in the verse should seal the deal, right?
4D is the bare minimum if we chose to ignore the Twitter statement. I'm bringing it up to show that closing the thread without changing anything is stupid. No good reason has been given to ignore or dismiss the Twitter statement, however. TheNinthHour's translation confirms that my translation is accurate, and the points I make here (that have never been refuted) means that it's inherently 5D.
If not bigger, as it is supposed to be outright superior to time (and space).
First of all, accepting the latest submitted translation about mathematical dimension transcendance would make it 5D, not 4D. The superiority to space-time statements make it 4D, since the superiority is made clear in those, but the degree of it isn't. Secondly, the whole requirement for being of a higher dimensionality is to be "infinitely beyond infinity" relative to the lower dimensional structure as you put it. That's why destroying a Low 2-C structure is always more impressive than destroying a High 3-A structure. As such, if you accept that AD is superior to 4D space and time, you accept that it's qualitatively superior to 3D in the same way time is in a 3D universe.
If we removed the statements about it being superior to structures that ARE 4D in the way that VSBW sees 4D, I guess you would be right. Those statements exist though, so...
I considered all the statements you used as evidence are 100% accurate ever since that translation was posted. When I explained why Another Dimension isn't 5D, I treated the statements about Another Dimension the same way you've been treating them, so what you wrote here about the upgrade prospect didn't add anything to the discussion. Also, in post number 832, I already addressed your idea that had red text. Although I phrased it to answer the first time you used red text in that post, I did factor in the other one you're referring to here.
It should be that way, but I don't know what everyone else thinks.
Not everyone did. The few disagreeing people who did address the translations tried to debunk them. You're the only real exception so far.
Your argument against 5D is that the 5D in Kirby may not be the 5D of VSBW, but that argument falls apart, because the reason AD is 5D is explicitly because it's defined in-universe via the Twitter statement to be superior to the mathematical dimensions in the verse, which are the exact requirements needed to be 5D on VSBW as per the FAQ and the logic I pointed out in my red paragraph. You can't say Kirby's 5D is different from the Wiki's 5D when the descriptive that define both of their 5Ds in the first place are identical, and when it's impossible to not be 5D when you're superior the dimensional axes that make up every imaginable 4D structure.
Remember the translation you agreed with? In it, we learn that AD doesn't "transcend" space and time. It's superior to them.
Then that would mean you actually don't agree with TheNinthHour's translation like you say you do. That translation says that AD is superior to 4D space-time, since it uses the 超える variation of Koeru in all relevant official statements.
I still wasn't given a good reason to assume Low 1-C isn't the most reasonable conclusion. If translations presented by the professionals in this thread are accurate, so is the upgrade. Still, since it has been 2 years since this the start of this whole discussion, the faster staff can agree on your conclusion, the more likely I am to settle on it.
So focus on me when you're messaging me.
In the red paragraph, I saw that you wrote that an entity having a statement about it like this means that it's fundamentally higher-dimensional in a way that makes it tier 1 to the standards of the VS Battles Wiki. My point was more meticulous than just writing that it's not. I wrote that it's not tier 1 because we don't know that the statement was meant in the sense that Another Dimension is infinitely above 4D infinity, which is what it needs to mean. As I explained in my comparison example, if a character is stated to be beyond planets, and we figure out that the statement meant that the character can destroy planets, we don't know that it's enough to qualify for tier 5-B or tier 5-A of the VS Battles Wiki because it's not specific enough about how the character destroys planets or what kind of planets are destroyed. At most, in the case that no more context is provided of course, we'd put in the character's Powers and Abilities section that they can ambiguously "destroy planets", or we'd put in their Range section that they're capable of going to different planets. So back to Another Dimension, we see the same kind of problem. How do you know that Another Dimension mathematically dimensionally transcending space-time means that infinitely above 4D infinity instead of just being bigger than our universe, being bigger than Kirby's universe, or having an extra spatial dimension (or something else similar to this idea)? I asked you something similar in the next quote that you answered, so we'll see in the next paragraph.
The words "transcend" and "superior" mean the same thing. They both mean that the thing that is transcendent or superior has a larger scope than what it's being compared to. Being superior to space and time isn't necessarily 5D or 4D, even in terms of mathematical dimensions. Being 4D or 5D does mean that the entity is superior to space and time, but that's not necessarily the case in reverse. So, please answer the question I asked. How do you know Another Dimension being beyond space-time is specifically a statement about its size, and not about its strong connection to dimensional rifts that we already know cross the border of 4D? How to you know that Another Dimension is bigger than infinite temporal dimensions instead of just being bigger than a universe that has a temporal dimension?
That translation confirms that Another Dimension being a world that "transcends" or is "beyond" space-time refers to mathematical dimensional transcendence, which I shouldn't oppose. Another Dimension being 4D or 5D are conclusions that you made as a result of the translation, which I'm discussing about.
Main problem is the word for dimension can also mean parallel/alternate/"world" dimensions like in english. The proof of mathematical dimension transcendence is not one, since Kirby never talked about spatial dimensions before and there is no reason to say it talks about spatial and not dimensions we already have seen in the games.
That's similar to the point I was making against the idea of Another Dimension being 4D or 5D anyway. Sure we know that the mentioning of transcendence is in the sense that would allow it to mean dimensional transcendence, but fiction mentioning these terminologies doesn't always mean exactly what someone would think that would allow it to be tier 1 on the VS Battles Wiki.
