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Unless the characters' nature fits in with them moving in the timeless void itself, they shouldn't be Infinite.
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Kingdom Hearts CRT 2: Electric Boogaloo
- Thread starter TheSpeedster96
- Start date
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I disagree with the Infinite Speed. Also the "Everyone is Possibly 3-A" needs to be removed asap. I thought this was agreed but people just ignored the older threads in an attempt to sneak out of the downgrade.
Bobsican
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Mmm... Can you please link that thread? I'm sure it was a thing and was even concluded more or less, but I can't find it.
Edit: Oh yeah, this was also a thing and never got concluded, can we move that discussion there? Thanks
Edit: Oh yeah, this was also a thing and never got concluded, can we move that discussion there? Thanks
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Everyone being 3-A has been receiving discussions in the DM Chat to stay. We haven't gotten to it, but we have reason for there to be 4 universes in the cosmology, being the Realm of Darkness, the Realm of Light, Realm of In Between, and the Datascape. Additionally, there were some 3-A feats already done in the Coded games which Bob linked. If anything, their 3-A status would just be affirmed by this as a baseline and Xehanort would be further into 3-A as it would imply he has to affect the other realms. Removing it would be dubious without discussing the new information presented.
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If they're being entirely downgraded, I think we should wait until ReMinf since multiple characters are shown fighting the Xehanort Replica's, and Kairi and Sora fighting Xehanort solo.
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I'm with Kepekley and Matt here.
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Coded feats don't count lmao.
3-A is dubious AF and it breaks scaling and the entire setting to make people 3-A.
3-A is dubious AF and it breaks scaling and the entire setting to make people 3-A.
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Damn, that's a really good explanation of why they shouldn't apply despite actual reality characters like Mickey, Pete, Maleficent, Donald, and Goofy all being in there.
No it doesn't, there is considerable evidence for 3 or 4 universes being in the series and Xehanort's wipe would scale to that. Sora's Heartless only had the ability to destroy one realm at a time, there's a clear difference. Your only refute the last thread was that it wouldn't make sense if they could all destroy the universe to be counterintuitive to their goal, but you purposefully ignored Xehanort's goal was to reset the universe, on a conceptual level, to equate balance between light and darkness. Destroying the universe wouldn't accomplish it nor do they have the ability to affect the ideas of light and darkness to that scale.
The idea they all even scale to Xehanort isn't even dumb like you also tried to say in the last thread. Aqua went from stalemating Vanitas to clapping him with X-Blade like a few days later. Sora struggled with Xemnas, yet he holds his own against Twilight Xemnas, who should be considerably stronger than Base. I'm making this comment so long to show that Kingdom Hearts actively doesn't care too much on scaling. Arguably one of the weakest Guardians of Light, Kairi, was shown fighting Xehanort along with others such as Roxas and Lea fighting the Armored variations in the new trailer. If anything, we need to hold off on any upgrades/downgrades to AP because Re:Mind might prove to be valuable evidence for either.
No it doesn't, there is considerable evidence for 3 or 4 universes being in the series and Xehanort's wipe would scale to that. Sora's Heartless only had the ability to destroy one realm at a time, there's a clear difference. Your only refute the last thread was that it wouldn't make sense if they could all destroy the universe to be counterintuitive to their goal, but you purposefully ignored Xehanort's goal was to reset the universe, on a conceptual level, to equate balance between light and darkness. Destroying the universe wouldn't accomplish it nor do they have the ability to affect the ideas of light and darkness to that scale.
The idea they all even scale to Xehanort isn't even dumb like you also tried to say in the last thread. Aqua went from stalemating Vanitas to clapping him with X-Blade like a few days later. Sora struggled with Xemnas, yet he holds his own against Twilight Xemnas, who should be considerably stronger than Base. I'm making this comment so long to show that Kingdom Hearts actively doesn't care too much on scaling. Arguably one of the weakest Guardians of Light, Kairi, was shown fighting Xehanort along with others such as Roxas and Lea fighting the Armored variations in the new trailer. If anything, we need to hold off on any upgrades/downgrades to AP because Re:Mind might prove to be valuable evidence for either.
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I'm sort of on the same boat with Matt in that I don't think everyone should be 'possibly 3-A' aside from maybe end-game Riku, Sora, and Xehanort with X-Blade. (Riku has always been Sora's equal but I'm sure this can be argued against. I guess Donald and Goofy apply too?) Roxas is a maybe since he has stalemated Sora if-not overpowered him but that's dubious as of KH3 end-game. Though him overpowering Saix clearly should make him on the same level as End-game Sora on some level?
I'm not saying they can't be 3-A as that would clearly be what Xehanort's end-game would lead up to. I just don't think everyone should scale personally.
I'm also iffy on infinite speed as well. Being able to move in a timeless void isn't the same as moving in a void where concepts such as distance don't exist, as you can clearly still travel inside the realm. Aqua wasn't traveling an infinite distance in a second, she still had to travel by foot. It's just a realm devoid of time but not distance. Of course this can be argued due to the statements given I suppose, I'm iffy on it but I'm open to debate on it. I might also be misinterpreting what the site considers as infinite speed.
I do agree though that an AP downgrade/upgrade should wait for the DLC for full context behind how the others can scale, yes. I'm leaning towards Matt though as of right now.
I'm not saying they can't be 3-A as that would clearly be what Xehanort's end-game would lead up to. I just don't think everyone should scale personally.
I'm also iffy on infinite speed as well. Being able to move in a timeless void isn't the same as moving in a void where concepts such as distance don't exist, as you can clearly still travel inside the realm. Aqua wasn't traveling an infinite distance in a second, she still had to travel by foot. It's just a realm devoid of time but not distance. Of course this can be argued due to the statements given I suppose, I'm iffy on it but I'm open to debate on it. I might also be misinterpreting what the site considers as infinite speed.
I do agree though that an AP downgrade/upgrade should wait for the DLC for full context behind how the others can scale, yes. I'm leaning towards Matt though as of right now.
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Bump.
I am with Tempest here. Xehanort's Resetting the Universe would include every realm in the series, besides other worldlines, which implies levels of power we never seen . Re:Coded can be used as it's directly referenced to be canon and an important aspect of the plot by Nomura's word . Said Heartless was outright stated to be capable of destroying the Realm of Light after he destroyed the Datascape [as nothing implied at the time anything else would be affected] which was explicitly stated to be a Universe so it's destruction should be similar in the Real World , and several important scalable characters [King Mickey who was only in the same league he was in during KH1 - KH2 in Re:Coded alongside a few others such as Maleficent] scale to a far superior evolution of that form.
Xehanort's plan wasn't destruction, it was resetting light and darkness , which nothing in the series has proven capable of affecting prior to the introduction of the True Keyblade or the Power of Waking. So, they can still scale to 3-A via specifically the Realm of Light and nothing else, and have no problems there and not scale to Xehanort whatsoever
Honestly, based on the Re:Mind trailer , which is intended to be a retcon of the final parts of the gane, we will be seeing them all scale to the EoS Xehanort, so we need to honestly wait and analyze that deeper.
I am with Tempest here. Xehanort's Resetting the Universe would include every realm in the series, besides other worldlines, which implies levels of power we never seen . Re:Coded can be used as it's directly referenced to be canon and an important aspect of the plot by Nomura's word . Said Heartless was outright stated to be capable of destroying the Realm of Light after he destroyed the Datascape [as nothing implied at the time anything else would be affected] which was explicitly stated to be a Universe so it's destruction should be similar in the Real World , and several important scalable characters [King Mickey who was only in the same league he was in during KH1 - KH2 in Re:Coded alongside a few others such as Maleficent] scale to a far superior evolution of that form.
Xehanort's plan wasn't destruction, it was resetting light and darkness , which nothing in the series has proven capable of affecting prior to the introduction of the True Keyblade or the Power of Waking. So, they can still scale to 3-A via specifically the Realm of Light and nothing else, and have no problems there and not scale to Xehanort whatsoever
Honestly, based on the Re:Mind trailer , which is intended to be a retcon of the final parts of the gane, we will be seeing them all scale to the EoS Xehanort, so we need to honestly wait and analyze that deeper.
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It clearly makes sense for everyone to be Possibly 3-A via backwards scaling when Xehanort needed a fuckton of amps and did the whole friggin story going to try and get that level of power. And when even at the end Sora, Donald and Goofy only won through literal last minute friendship-heart power.
No it doesn't. It breaks the entire logic of the setting and you should be ashamed for allowing it. Also remove these freaking Summon Profiles, it's pathetic.
No it doesn't. It breaks the entire logic of the setting and you should be ashamed for allowing it. Also remove these freaking Summon Profiles, it's pathetic.
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I re-read the abilities. The things I'm not really too sure about are:
Chain of memories power nullification: I don't believe that's technically power nulling just because you can 'break' cards. That's more so following the rules of Law in Castle Oblivion and a gameplay mechanic at boot. If anything it'd be non-applicable power null because it's only relevant to Castle Oblivion.
Nobodies Type 5 immortality: I don't exactly agree on this one. Nobodies aren't really nonexistent so much so as they're just shells without a heart. In fact most of KH2 is questioning whether they exist or not because they don't have a heart. The fact that they can grow them also means they don't really fall under this. It's mostly just a play on existentionalism than it is a true physiology. Though I'd be okay with talking about this more because I can see it going both ways.
Riku Power Mimicry: I'm somewhat okay with this but the Shadow Sora did not have any of Sora's actual abilities so I think it should be 'limited' if anything. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one though.
Xemnas having power nullification: I don't see anything there that suggests that aside from paralysis maybe. I agree on the other part of that though for sure.
Resistance to power nullification: I'm iffy on that. Sora's powers weren't so much as nullified as they were scrambled with in that Xemnas fight. I agree to the other two though. If anyone wants to elaborate on why it's PN then I'm happy to talk about it.
I think that's it aside from also thinking the others shouldn't be scaled to X-blade Xehanort. Though I think that should wait until the DLC for a final decision.
Chain of memories power nullification: I don't believe that's technically power nulling just because you can 'break' cards. That's more so following the rules of Law in Castle Oblivion and a gameplay mechanic at boot. If anything it'd be non-applicable power null because it's only relevant to Castle Oblivion.
Nobodies Type 5 immortality: I don't exactly agree on this one. Nobodies aren't really nonexistent so much so as they're just shells without a heart. In fact most of KH2 is questioning whether they exist or not because they don't have a heart. The fact that they can grow them also means they don't really fall under this. It's mostly just a play on existentionalism than it is a true physiology. Though I'd be okay with talking about this more because I can see it going both ways.
Riku Power Mimicry: I'm somewhat okay with this but the Shadow Sora did not have any of Sora's actual abilities so I think it should be 'limited' if anything. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one though.
Xemnas having power nullification: I don't see anything there that suggests that aside from paralysis maybe. I agree on the other part of that though for sure.
Resistance to power nullification: I'm iffy on that. Sora's powers weren't so much as nullified as they were scrambled with in that Xemnas fight. I agree to the other two though. If anyone wants to elaborate on why it's PN then I'm happy to talk about it.
I think that's it aside from also thinking the others shouldn't be scaled to X-blade Xehanort. Though I think that should wait until the DLC for a final decision.
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jesus christ calm down MattMatthew Schroeder said:
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I agree with Kira here. Matt, you need to calm down. You're literally telling people they should be ashamed for having a different opinion. Come on man, that's stooping kinda low.
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@Accelerate The card break system is canon. Marluxia later in the game brings up how the cards work in the castle, giving demonstrations of it. Also, I'm pretty sure SBA allows for this kind of thing to be used outside of a specific place where it normally works.
Nobodies are actually entirely nonexistent, and they weren't questioning whether or not they existed, it was more or so whether they could feel emotions, since lacking a heart means you can't experience true emotions. Yenseid and Ansem talk about how after the heart is taken, they're erased and then they'll start to act on its own, the empty shell refers to the heart missing, which is the core essence of someone. Even Xigbar states that a Nobody existing goes against the laws of nature.
I'm fine with limited Power Mimicry for Riku
Sora's ability to use magic was locked, not scrambled, which qualifies as Power Nullification, and Sora getting a resistance to it.
@Matt Ffs Matt calm done. You have literally done this on every single KH thread, with your only responses talking shit or not giving a refute. Literally just wait for ReMind, which is only a month away.
Nobodies are actually entirely nonexistent, and they weren't questioning whether or not they existed, it was more or so whether they could feel emotions, since lacking a heart means you can't experience true emotions. Yenseid and Ansem talk about how after the heart is taken, they're erased and then they'll start to act on its own, the empty shell refers to the heart missing, which is the core essence of someone. Even Xigbar states that a Nobody existing goes against the laws of nature.
I'm fine with limited Power Mimicry for Riku
Sora's ability to use magic was locked, not scrambled, which qualifies as Power Nullification, and Sora getting a resistance to it.
@Matt Ffs Matt calm done. You have literally done this on every single KH thread, with your only responses talking shit or not giving a refute. Literally just wait for ReMind, which is only a month away.
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I'm not. I'm embarrassed that so-called fans care so little about the series in terms of actual plot, consistency, internal logic and development that they'd rather make the whole plot of the verse a freaking messy joke that makes no sense just to get characters upgraded.PlozAlcachaz said:
But then again, C'est le VSBW, huh?
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Also this whole "Wait for Re:Mind" is code for "Let's not do anything and hopefully by the time it arrives people will have stopped caring about downgrades."
Fans do this with every single series here. It's the most commonly used shield that I'm shocked there's no Rule against it.
Fans do this with every single series here. It's the most commonly used shield that I'm shocked there's no Rule against it.
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@Speedster I see. That makes sense to me, thank you for clarifying.
Well, Matt, from my point of view it's more like if we downgrade them, then suddenly a month later they all fit that category if not more then it'd be kind of a waste of time. If downgrades are to happen it'd be more efficient to do them all at the same time with the release of new information, right? But don't get me wrong, I do think almost all the 3-A chars should get downgraded too.
Well, Matt, from my point of view it's more like if we downgrade them, then suddenly a month later they all fit that category if not more then it'd be kind of a waste of time. If downgrades are to happen it'd be more efficient to do them all at the same time with the release of new information, right? But don't get me wrong, I do think almost all the 3-A chars should get downgraded too.
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No we aren't Matt, you're twisting my own words. Just like accelerate said, downgrading them now is literally a waste if ReMind shows them to be 3-A. Also, how is that an excuse when ReMind is quiet literally only a month away, and seeing from the trailer we know it changes shit?Matthew Schroeder said:
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Matt come on now there isn't a reason to be arguing this passionately. Calm down, and if you try being more civil maybe people will be more inclined to hear you out
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I agree with almost everything
The only questionable thing is the infinite speed stuff
The only questionable thing is the infinite speed stuff
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Oh sorry, i didn't see it closed so i thought i could say what are my thoughts on the matterBobsican said:
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