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King Hassan's Tier II

ThatDarnFish

ThatDarnFish

575
210
Picking up from HERE where it turned into a discussion for Tiamat which led to a discussion for the entire Fate cosmology, which has led to several Fate characters going through upgrades in tier all the way up to 2-A. The original thread revolved around King Hassan's AP, and how he managed to physically sevver both of Tiamat's wings with a single swing from his sword. It was argued that he simply ignored durability when he forced the concept of death onto Tiamat with that swing.

The way I see it, King Hassan still deserves an upgrade to either his AP or his Hax which should scale to him doing more physically Tiamat in her final form more than even Quetzalcoatl managed to do to her in her second stage(Broke one of her horns), OR his HAX need to be upgraded to 2-A for imposing the concept of death onto Tiamat as well as having the ability to ignore the durability of a High 3-A/Low 2-C/2-A character. Whatever tier Tiamat eventually settles down in.
 
I'm pretty sure his ap would scale to Tiamat

Imposing the concept of death doesn't mean your next cut just passes through your opponent even if they are several infinites stronger than you.

In addition his durability negation from his np isn't even the "I can cut through anything" kind
 
Fair reminder that Tiamat mats showed us that she was also holding back herself

Self-Sealing: C+++
A chain of self-mutilation that ties down Beast II. Although Beast II hated her grief of being banished for "not being needed anymore" by the collective unconsciousness of humanity, the depths of her consciousness accepted that as something inevitable. Beast II, who has the role "mother" as her foundation, possesses a desire to function as a patron of humanity to the very end. This Self-Sealing is something that has become that form.

Beast II constantly seals herself. This self-inflicted pain is equivalent to giving herself a damage that deals 50% of Beast II's current HP every turn. In the rare cases where Beast II emerges from the sea while losing her self-control, the seal admonishes her for this and the damage is raised to 90% of her HP instead for a moment. This is why she has +++ in this Skill.
Ignoring the RPG elements, you can see Tiamat wasn't at her full power considering the description.

Additionally, Old Man has to put all power of his Grand Saint Graph in order to force concept of death into her alongside cutting her wings. This resulted into him losing it and having a normal graph now

At best, you can scale his "force the concept of death" slash hax to Tiamat with a note saying it's a one use only as it depowers him into a normal servant
 
Even assuming it doesn't there's still no reason to assume KH can physically scale to her when context seems to imply his death hax did all the damage and because he put all of his Grand Saint Graph into that which also turned his container into a normal one means it's a one thing only
 
Excuse me but why are people already trying to put someone into 2-A when there are ongoing discussions regarding the validity of the current ratings.
 
The thread is about scaling Hassan to Tiamat, no matter what tier Tiamat ends up being. It's even said in the OP. This is not "2-A thing".
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
King Hassan's power is hax that bypasses durability it's not AP
Click to expand...
Hassan's durability negation is from inflicting death its not the "my sword can cut through someone infinitely stronger than me" kind
 
It's a one time only thing that shouldn't be scaled. No one in Babylon should even scale to Tiamat to begin with considering they had to go through many requirements to start damaging her + her self-sealing skill making her hold back

And like i stated KH was forced to put all of his Grand Saint Graph into the attack which weakened him permanently.

This is even pointed out by Castor in beast lair. Only thing you can scale her to him is his hax as i stated
 
To each their own. All i did was give a link to someone who's had translated many FGO mats and is considered reliable by the community, so his posts of his far outweights others.

But sure let's disregard someone who had a hand in translating many materials that you guys also used for many FGO profiles. Time to go to the days Excalibur used to be said to atomize stuff until Mcjon had proved it never did and that it was all a mistranslation

I too miss the days where people would try to look up the consistency and context behind feats before making a conclusion.

Really if you're gonna post something useful than this, by all means you're welcome to do so

Edit: althought the link was more of a "this is to further confirm the legitimacy of my argument" rather than it being "LOL your opinion means shit only Beast Lair does"
 
Is he a part of Nasuverse community on vsbattles wiki? If not then his opinion is definitely not more valuable than opinion of people here. I think our community is capable of interpretating feats. Translation is one thing, interpretation is another. Bring a valid argument which helps the discussion. We are not Beast's Lair, Reddit, Comicvine, Spacebattles etc. They each have their own interpretation and are entitled to it, as are we to our own interpretation.
 
I will unsubscribe to this thread due to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need my help.
 
ThisIsMySwagPack said:
I am neutral on this, but I just have to say I miss the days when arguments weren't "person X on Beast's Lair says so, therefore it is correct and we must accept it".
Click to expand...
The difference is that Dysmity posted their argument, the source material and only then linked something that a moonreader from the Lairs said to further support their point.

If the problem is argument from authority, then I have seen that circulate around here in the form of "X knowledgeble staff/member agrees, therefore it is correct and we must accept it". Or spamming old comments from the mods also appears to be acceptable. Seeking the opinion of people well-versed with the topic at hand seems to be common here, so I don't see the issue.
 
Actually the only reason why king Hassan lost is saint graph was because as a Grand servant he was not supposed to to interfere him slapping the concept of death on her and nothing being ordered to do it is the reason why he lost it plus Grand servants can't just be summoned they need to lose their saint graph in order to be summoned.


Code: 
slapping the concept of death was to provide chaldea a way to "kill" her but since she started to fly and tried to escape the underworld he went to slow her down and cut her wing.
Tiamat's seal as nothing to do with her holding back it's actually her performing.. The correct term would be Self-flagellation I don't see where you got the idea that Tiamat is holding back when it's clearly stated during the event of her arrival she basically lost control and went bat shit insane.

Also Merlin: Hm. We delayed her with two goddesses. Made a hole to the Underworld using Uruk as bait. Restrained her with the Chain of Heaven, inflicted the punishment of the Underworld, and made flowers which are merely beautiful. Gudao, and you heroic spirits. You truly did much to get where you are now. But it isn't enough. It still doesn't know fear. It doesn't know its natural enemy. It doesn't know the death which is him.

Mashu: Him? Is there someone else who can help us?

Merlin: Indeed there is. A very important person. Well then, just whom was he called by? It wasn't by King Gilgamesh. Nor was it by the Grail of the King of Magic. Need I say it. It was by you, Gudao. He said he would throw away his Grand rank in gratitude to you. And the foe is an enemy of humanity, a Beast. The conditions by which he could appear in this land had been in place from the start! Your battle, all of it, had meaning.

Dr. Roman: …Could it be? The reason why Gudao's bioreadings disappeared in the underworld before was because…

Merlin: That's right. Now behold the sky, o primordial sea! For that is where your grim reaper stands!

Grand Battle Music

Ziusdra: …There cannot be life without death, and it is because there is death that there can be life. The eternity thou claims is not progress but slumber. Beast of disaster, evil born by humanity. The love that brought thee to seek regression is what casted thee aside.

Tiamat: Aaaaaa----AaAa, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Ziusdra: I need not the rank of Grand, but in my blade now dwells the proof of the strongest.

Old Man of the Mountain: Thou may be a god that has fallen to a beast, but thou art still the primordial mother, so I must reveal my name. From the abyss of the ethereal valley, I came to deliver the dark death. I am the old man of the mountain, Hasan Sabbah. The Evening Bell has called thy name. Let those wings be deprived from you under the mandate of heaven!

Slash

Dr. Roman: The pattern of the Beast's spiritual foundation has changed… Incredible…he didn't just cut off Tiamat's wing, he even added the "concept of death"!

In the finale of the Singularity, the protagonists are able to temporarily trap Tiamat within the Underworld by the assistance of Ereshkigal and Ishtar -- aiming to utilize the Anti-Divinity property of the territory of the Underworld to weaken her. In the midst of Tiamat's attempt to escape to the surface, the Old Man of the Mountain intervenes by slicing off Tiamat's wings and imposing the Concept of Mortality upon her -- stating to the protagonists that he has removed himself of the title of "Grand Assassin" for the opportunity to strike against an Evil of Man. He participates as a guest in the second-to-final confrontation with Tiamat.

Him losing is saint graph did not make him weaker he just lost the title that's all because grand servant unless told by the counter force, are not allowed to interve until they are told to do so but King Hassan went against that making him lose his saint graph y but not his powers.
 
The evidence of her holding back is in the material books. You can scroll up in this thread to see where that was posted. It was also hinted by Mashu when Tiamat first appeared. In fact, she's not just sealing herself but also actively hurting herself by damaging 50% of her own HP every turn. Then that rises up to 90% once she goes completely mad and loses control.

No King Hassan actually became a normal servant after performing that strike. Him abandoning the position of Grand in order to fight alongside Chaldea, and then him sacrificing his Grand level Saint Graph for the attack against Tiamat are two seperate things. Nasu cleared that up in Chaldea Ace Interview:

Shimazaki: The strike that granted Tiamat the concept of death, was it a result of his powers as the Grand Assassin after all?

Nasu: Personally, I feel that joining Chaldea means that you must throw away the right to being a Grand that exists for the sake of saving all mankind. Still, even after discarding that position, the strength of King Hassan's Saint Graph itself is still Grand-class. It doesn't mean that once he loses his Grand position and becomes a normal Assassin, his Saint Graph would immediately lose power. So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that "granted the concept of death" could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan's Saint Graph became that of a normal Servants.

I bolded the relevant parts. To put it simply, abandoning the title does not mean he loses his Grand level SG. However, converting all of its power for a super attack is going to make him lose that Grand level SG.
 
Nah. This was cleared by Nasu somewhere that KH only had forgotten his Grand title but kept his Grand Saint Graph until he striked Tiamat. I think it was the Type Moon Ace books but i dunno which one

Ninja'd by Hun
 
King Hassan used his Grand Saint Graph to impose the concept of death on Tiamat. Afterward, he became a normal servant. However, and I'm not 100% sure if this is valid;

"Nasu: Personally, I feel that joining Chaldea means that you must throw away the right to being a Grand that exists for the sake of saving all mankind. Still, even after discarding that position, the strength of King Hassan's Saint Graph itself is still Grand-class. It doesn't mean that once he loses his Grand position and becomes a normal Assassin, his Saint Graph would immediately lose power. So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that "granted the concept of death" could be performed."

Note taken from the type:moon wiki. He gave up his Grand Status to join Chaldea.

Anyway, after imposing death on Tiamat by using his Grand Saint Graph, he retains his Grand level strength until the battle is concluded. King Hassan's physical attacks don't ignore Durability, only his Death/Conceptual hax do that. He physically severed Tiamat's wings and simultaneously forced the concept of death onto her. Imposing death with the smallest cut is all part of Hassan's thing. Even if he had only gotten a drop of blood from Tiamat, I think it would have still done the deed of making her 'killable', but that's just my opinion based on how Gramps works.

Anyway, ayway. I already said. Even if its not his AP that gets buffed to scale to Tiamat, people want to say it was hax, then at least his HAX should scale to whatever tier Tiamet falls into.
 
He doedn't retain his Grand level strength until the battle is concluded, it's immediatly lost after he forced concept of death unto Tiamat.

Yes i even said that i agred with scaling it to his hax with a note saying this is a one thing only alongside it weakening KH to the level of a normal servant
 
Dysmity said:
He doedn't retain his Grand level strength until the battle is concluded, it's immediatly lost after he forced concept of death unto Tiamat.
Click to expand...
That's not much of a counter argument tbh

Why can't it just be placed as a possibly?
 
Because i was commenting on the Grand Saint Graph being lost only after the battle and not after KH slashed her

It's a one time only thing done by putting his GSG to entire use then losing it and it's all done through hax. Not to mention her self-sealing skill (which means she was holding back and damaging herself) and also being weakened by going through underworld after Kingu betrayed her and Merlin's flowers lol

Going to sleep, later
 
Oh. You're right, @Dysmity. After he imposed death on her with the slash, he lost the Grand level power. Arighty. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Still, his conceptual hax if imposing death on Tiamat doesn't mean that he ignored her durability to take off her wings.

And I might be wrong, but doesn't her self-sealing only apply to her first form, where it is mentioned and visualized as her being bound in chains of her own making to hold herself back? This
 
You are correct DarnFish.

Her Self-Sealing is utterly irrelevant to this discussion because by the point that Hassan cuts off her wings, Chaldea had already destroyed her Femme Fatale form and released her from these chains. She was sealing herself due to her love of her children. Once Chaldea destroyed the Femme fatale form, her motherly instinct towards humanity was lost, and she stopped sealing herself because she no longer held any reservations about destroying humanity.

As others have said, King Hassan's durability negation refers to his Death Manipulation and has nothing to do with making it easier for him to cut things.

Furthermore, the entire purpose of Grand Servants is to defeat the Beasts. For a servant with a Grand level saint Graph to not scale to the Beasts is an incredibly idiotic thought.

I do not particularly care about what rating Tiamat or Hassan have, but I am 100% certain that Grand Assassin Hassan physically scales to Tiamat. I will not budge on this point.
 
I 100% agree with Monarch Laciel Grand servants like Hassan where design to go up against beast like Tiamat him not scaling to her would be ridiculous and goes completely against what Grand servants are and again Nasu himself said.

Nasu: Personally, I feel that joining Chaldea means that you must throw away the right to being a Grand that exists for the sake of saving all mankind.Still, even after discarding that position, the strength of King Hassan's Saint Graph itself is still Grand-class.


He clearly says that he still have that incredible power he had as a Grand servant.

Also his speed should scale to Tiamat's who also scale to Gilgamesh and Enkidu
 
Nope, there's no mention of it being Femme Fatale form only. If you've read the skill too, you'll see this:

Beast II constantly seals herself. This self-inflicted pain is equivalent to giving herself a damage that deals 50% of Beast II's current HP every turn. In the rare cases where Beast II emerges from the sea while losing her self-control, the seal admonishes her for this and the damage is raised to 90% of her HP instead for a moment. This is why she has +++ in this Skill.
Besides even at the end, she still had motherly instincts even when she went batshit crazy as stated by Gil Archer:

Gilgamesh:
Hmph, who said I don't know how to read the situation? Of course it's self-evident.

After all, this is the underworld. Surely small things like these are possible.

You there, Goddess Tiamat!

At last you return to your divine form after understanding what is death.

I have no hatred for you.

The people of Uruk have no hatred either. They may have anger, but they cannot hate you.

But, it is fate decreed by heaven that we cannot come to mutual understanding.

You give birth, and you manage.

Yet we are humans that are grown, and even now, we begin our own journeys.

No matter how much a mother loves her child, the child cannot stay in the arms of mother forever. The child must leave mother's embrace eventually.

That is what I shall show you today.

Be at ease. I have no plans to defile your remains.

We no longer need the world's foundation!

So this time, return to your long sleep in the realm of death.

Be at peace!
This was again even shown at her mats:

Also, the title called Femme Fatale was something given by Beast I (Goetia). Goetia successfully saw the true nature of Beast II's core, so he bestowed a title meant for a Woman of Destiny rather than one meant for a Mother of the Gods (Magna Mater). At the bottom of her hatred towards humanity, there is also joy towards humanity for becoming a mother, as well as love towards humanity, them being the children of her first-generation children. For this reason, Beast II binds herself. A mother's love is something necessary for growth, but it is something unnecessary for adults. In order for humanity to advance to the next stage, they must overcome the "original woman".
Seems awfully weird that a Grand lost his SG just to weaken a beast. By your words, they should be capable of defeating Beasts on their own then...which is not the case going by Babylon chapter alone.

And iirc, Hans says the seven vessels are summoned to fight against a single adversary.

You can call it an idiotic thought but FGO had already shown us how even a single Grand Servant couldn't kill a Beast (Weakened mind you) on his own

@Ashen i'd sincerly like if you didn't copy only a part of the quote and left the important part to prove your point because that's distorting context

Nasu: Personally, I feel that joining Chaldea means that you must throw away the right to being a Grand that exists for the sake of saving all mankind. Still, even after discarding that position, the strength of King Hassan's Saint Graph itself is still Grand-class. It doesn't mean that once he loses his Grand position and becomes a normal Assassin, his Saint Graph would immediately lose power. So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that "granted the concept of death" could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan's Saint Graph became that of a normal Servants.
As you can see, KH lost his GSG just for one single slash and permanently lost his GSG
 
You helpfully left out the part where after killing the Femme Fatale form, it is explicitly pointed out that they just killed her last form of self-restraint and she was free to go batshit crazy

All her mats make mention of is the point before all those restraints you are going on about were broken.
 
Btw no they never "killed" her Femme Fatale or anything. Hell they didn't damage her or anything or explicitly mentionned that their entire attacks released her from self-restraint. Her mats already told us what happened:

Self-Modification: EX
She can remake her Saint Graph by utilizing the black Sea of Life. From her usual Saint Graph status (Femme Fatale), she can grow into a draconic body that exceeds a height of 60 meters. Tiamat, who grew into a draconic body, can cancel attacks that are A++ ranked and below.
As you can see, they neither "killed" her nor did anything to her. I don't know where that comes from

Also there's no mentioning of her changing form from femme fatal to draconic body releasing her from her seals too.

Are you confusing the chains that holds her for a bit before they were destroyed? That's Kingu NP.
 
But Nadu says he still have the same power level that he had as a Grand servant, he's just not a Grand servant in title anymore but at his base he's still is
 
No, they killed its Femme Fatale form. Roman confirms spirit origin dispersion.

It just comes back because of its type 8 on life on earth. Roman confirms the spirit origin returning from dispersion, then later explains why
 
???

Ereshkigal:
W-wha -!

Romani:

The Chaos Tide is corrupting the Underworld! This is bad, if this keeps up the underworld will be taken over by her!

Also, what's with this reaction?!

The spiritual core of Beast II is expanding. It's reverting back to the times of the Jurassic! This, this is no longer just the essence of the divine, but an undoubted divine body!
It's expanding. Localization says it's growing but it's the same point.

No mention of it dispersing unless your misinterpreting the whole "reverting back to the times of Jurassic".

@Ashen If you're not gonna read the second part, i have nothing to discuss with you then
 
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