Kinetic Energy Standards

[DontTalkDT]

Basically there needs to be context for calcing a character's Attack Potency based on movement speed. Like a character moving at massive speeds to rescue someone shouldn't normally be treated as a Strength + Durability feat. But a character attacking at great speed, or the Author or story mentioning speed in relation to Attack Potency in a realistic matter should have no problem calcing KE. KE for destruction feats such as shattering an object and all fragments moving at great speeds should be perfectly fine for calcing KE. And throwing objects at great distances and/or great speeds are also fine to calc KE.

So that's the summary of it?

I suppose that should go into the Rules section of the Kinetic Energy Feats page and the other sections after should be updated accordingly.

Maybe something like this?:

• Kinetic Energy based on Movement Speed is case by case: Fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move himself as unrelated to their attack power. As such feats like just running or carrying a small object, like another character, should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the characters power or if the character uses the fast moving object to attack. Calculating the energy necessary for moving large structures at great speeds, using the speed things move as a secondary effect of an attack, throwing objects at great speeds etc. are all acceptable methods of quantifying a characters power regardless.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DonTalk's version sounds great.

 

[Ugarik]

I agree but we probably need to add some examples

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

Thank you very much for the help. Here is what I wrote earlier, if you need help for adding more examples:

Well, all that was intended is that, for example, if a character punches the ground near the speed of light, and it leaves a large crater, the crater result should take precedence, regardless whether it gives a greater or lower result, as that is what has been explicitly shown by the story.

Agreed. The resulting kinetic energy of the boulder can be calculated.

Throwing feats are probably fine, yes. Punching somebody can also be used via the resulting kinetic energy of the one being launched back by the punch.

I just mean that the intended explicitly shown scale of the destruction from the feat should take precedence over the movement speed of the character responsible, as attack potency and speed are usually kept as two separate qualities in fiction as far as I am aware.

Well, I personally do think that only speed feats that are either treated as AP by the author or that are more realistically handled should be allowed.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Donttalk Maybe change "carrying a small object, like another character" to "carrying a small object, or another character"? A human isn't exactly a small object.

 

[Ugarik]

So KE can not be used for non-attack based movement?

 

[Antvasima]

@Ugarik

Well, non-destructive movement preferably, but we will see how this develops.

 

[Andytrenom]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

Somebody can politely ask DontTalkDT to comment here again if you wish.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Ugarik, that depends; moving a skyscraper at Mach 10 on screen for example is still legit. And Solar Eclipse feats I think are still fine to calc KE for. And I have notified DT again.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@Donttalk Maybe change "carrying a small object, like another character" to "carrying a small object, or another character"? A human isn't exactly a small object.

Depends. Do we consider carrying non-human things, that are not much smaller than humans, as ok for KE feats? Like a life size doll or a big backpack?

If we do, then I will change it. If we don't I would suggest keeping it as is, since it gives a sense of what size we consider as small object.

@Antvasima: The things you mentioned are for adding to the "Speed can/cannot be used to find KE when"-sections, yes?

The first is already mentioned in the "cannot be used"-section.

For the second I would add in the "can be used to find KE when"-section: "an object moves at said speed due to the secondary effects of an attack. For example when an explosion tosses large rocks around, their KE can be used to measure the power of the explosion."

For the third we can simply add to the same section "an object is thrown or launched."

I think the last is already grasped by the "The kinetic energy displayed is directly shown to be as a result of speed, or at least heavily implied to be so. Examples would be: A meteor crashing into the ground, as well as a Kaiju moving at full speed."-part in the "can be used"-section.

 

[Antvasima]

That is probably fine. Thank you very much for the help.

 

[Andytrenom]

Well, my idea on weight necessary for KE is "A person cannot freely move the object without blatantly showing superhuman strength" like a car or something. So maybe it's fine after all.

 

[Imaginym]

So, small objects must have it demonstrated that the KE is related to destruction, power or an attack to be applicable for KE?

And for large objects that would require superhuman strength to lift, moving such large objects at high speeds is okay?

What about large amounts of small masses or in cases involving so many or people so heavy it'd require superhuman strength to lift?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Very glad with the outcome of this thread. There is still some issues with KE feats in my opinion though; sword-slashes near lightning or bullets shouldn't be counted either, such as feats seen in Bloodborne and Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, given the verses aren't specifically mentioning stuff like Kinetic Energy.

Quicksilver (X-Men Film Series) should be the first one to be downgraded from this change once implemented, though.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, using regular swords strikes at high speeds and carrying or moving other people or small objects at high speeds should not count as applicable kinetic energy feats.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Flash (CW), Quicksilver (X-Men) and basically a whole bunch of speedsters will be downgraded.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalkDT should preferably handle the edits to the Kinetic Energy Feats page.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes, using regular swords strikes at high speeds and carrying or moving other people or small objects at high speeds should not count as applicable kinetic energy feats.

Speaking as a person knowledgeable on the two verses Dargoo used as an example, just to preface this.

Out of curiosity, why the former? What defines "regular", as far as a weapon swing goes? To be clear I was against Bloodborne's from the start (though for other reasons) but why would swinging a weapon at lightning speeds not equate directly to attack potency, when throwing a boulder at such speeds would? To be clear, my question of "regular" is asked largely due to the Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice weapon being this monstrosity.

 

[Antvasima]

I am mostly referring to acts of blocking bullets with a sword, and similar non-destructive feats of speed alone, but it depends on how realistically the verse in question handles speed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fair enough. Based on this line of DT's summary...

Calculating the energy necessary for moving large structures at great speeds
	~ Kinetic Energy Standards​

...I will assume Sekiro fits that as the weapon in question is much larger than a house.

Regardless, since I've been out of this discussion for awhile, I do wish to state that for the most part I agree with the given suggestions and all the other typical statements. If any verses need to be rescaled because of this I'm more than happy to oblige for any calcs.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Andytrenom]

The additions seem to be these

Rules

• Kinetic Energy based on Movement Speed is case by case: Fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move himself as unrelated to their attack power. As such feats like just running or carrying a small object, like another character, should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the character's power or if the character uses the fast moving object to attack. Calculating the energy necessary for moving large structures at great speeds, using the speed things move as a secondary effect of an attack, throwing objects at great speeds etc. are all acceptable methods of quantifying a characters power regardless.

Speed can be used to find KE whe

• A certain character moves at a certain speed while carrying an object. This is because it requires energy to move an object at a certain speed.
• An exception to the above rule would be someone moving at high speeds while carrying a person. This is because such feats end up being often inconsistent with the rest of the feats, as well as disconnected to what should actually happen to a normal, average bystander being carried at such enormous speeds in real life.
• A verse consistently treats speed, and its relation to attack potency, in a realistic manner. Calculating kinetic energy from a character's speed isn't problematic, if it's clear that the story they're from doesn't separate speed from one's general capacity for destruction.
• An object moves at said speed due to the secondary effects of an attack. For example when an explosion tosses large rocks around, their KE can be used to measure the power of the explosion.

Speed cannot be used to find KE whe

• An attack explicitly fails to achieve a level of destruction/damage that its supposed kinetic energy should have been sufficient for.

• For example, a hammer is thrown against a concrete wall at a calculated speed of mach 5000 with the intent of breaking it, but the wall is left unaffected by this.

If I missed anything, feel free to inform me.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that you caught most of it. Thank you.

However, I would also prefer to avoid feats unrelated to destructive power, such as parrying bullets with a sword.

I also corrected a few minor grammar issues.

What do you think DontTalkDT?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree that feats of dodging/parrying/blocking shouldn't be AP in that case.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed.

 

[Andytrenom]

Only one thing I want cleared up now. Are we rewording the below rule?

"There is a destruction/AP calculation along with a speed calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the speed calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack."

I've already explained my problems with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally prefer to keep it, but your mileage may vary.

 

[AKM sama]

@Andy How do you want to reword it?

 

[Andytrenom]

Here's the version I have right now

"The kinetic energy feat is part of a destruction feat and among the two, only the latter is actually portrayed as a demonstration of the character's capabilities"

"For example, if a character swings a mace into a large hill at near the speed of light and destroys it completely, with the destruction of the hill being meant as a showcase of his power; the energy required to destroy the hill will take priority over the energy required to swing the mace"

There may be some problems such as only mentioning destruction when other type of feats exist and other things.

 

[AKM sama]

I think the current rule is better. And your concern about the destruction feat yielding a lower result than what should be realistic can be attributed to the fiction's use of area of effect, which by default renders the destruction calc unusable.

 

[Andytrenom]

That's not my concern. My concern is that the current rule only gives the simple presence of a destruction feat as a reason for disqualifying KE which won't work well under different contexts,

If the point of the rule is to favor destruction because that's what truly has been portrayed to be the character's attack potency then mention that and if it isn't, doesn't matter, just actually make it clear what kind of situation makes KE unusable and what the reasoning behind it is.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

That does bring up an interesting little double standard though.

We ignore KE in favour of level of destruction in some situations (e.g. someone swinging a sword really fast), but we ignore level of destruction and favour KE in other situations (e.g. a person calc'd at town level only making a small crater if they punch the ground)

Not sure there's any solutions there though

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I am not a staff member, but I still think a case by case method should still be used when it comes to using KE or not. Also it depends on context and how the feat was done.

 

[Andytrenom]

Or the example I brought up of a person being punched to the moon and leaving a 9-A crater

Whether the rule needs to be removed or reworded I am not entirely sure, but if it's staying at least make the logic behind it perfectly clear so it's clear what context it applies in and what context it doesn't

 

[Andytrenom]

@Hammer No offense but just saying something should be case by case doesn't help much, context is important in pretty much everything and pretty much goes without saying , what you need to figure out is a basic standard that would allow you evaluate something in different situations.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Context is what is used to determined in a case though right? I don't get how exactly the case by case method will be rendered to be ineffective anyway.

 

[Andytrenom]

Yes, but saying "you should use context when judging feats" is as helpful as saying "you should concentrate when studying", it is just stating the obvious without giving any actually useful suggestion to make the task easier.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Hmmm perhaps the context will be refering to the statements and how the feat was done would help though @Andy

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT & Assaltwaffle

Do you have any suggestions for how we should best solve the possible problem that Andytrenom brought up?