Kid Icarus CRT: Aurum Brain Size Revision

[CloverDragon03]

So there was a thread about this before but it just kinda died and now can't be bumped because it would be a necro. As a result, I'm making a new thread.

Currently, the Kid Icarus verse scales off of this calc. However, @Tankirbmon did a recalc of it here, based on this statement from Palutena that an Aurum ship much smaller than the Aurum Brain itself is the size of a continent. The recalc itself has been accepted by multiple CGMs, myself included. As such, I propose that the verse's Class P and High 6-B ratings be upgraded to Class Z and 5-A, respectively. If there's a way to pixel scale the Aurum Brain from the ship, I'd love to hear it, but I genuinely can't find anything so this is the best we've got.

That's about it from me, so now I'll open the floor to discussion!

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree: SamanPatou, Armorchompy
Neutral:

 

[SamanPatou]

Any chance Palutena's statement could be a hyperbole?
I don't remember the game so precisely, but is there any scene to compare the ship or the brain to something else, to see if it really matches this size?
Also, it might not be too difficult to find a japanese gameplay and see what she says in the original version, the dialogue is scripted, after all, right?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Any chance Palutena's statement could be a hyperbole?

She's guiding Pit and giving him info on what's going on in a dire situation so I don't see why she'd exaggerate

I don't remember the game so precisely, but is there any scene to compare the ship or the brain to something else, to see if it really matches this size?

Nothing so far, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

Also, it might not be too difficult to find a japanese gameplay and see what she says in the original version, the dialogue is scripted, after all, right?

Yeah it's scripted dialogue, but why do we specifically need to find the Japanese version?

 

[SamanPatou]

Because in my experience american translators tend to be quite carefree with the terminology, so I always double check with the original source when a statement smells sus to me or implies great changes for the verse.
It occurred me a few times to ditch the english translation because it deviated from what the japanese (hence original) version said.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Welp

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I didn't even realize they got downgraded. Ripperoni and cheese.

Well that shut that attempt to deny it down real quick. Since the english translation just got backed up by it's original version, count me as an agree.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I didn't even realize they got downgraded. Ripperoni and cheese.

Well that shut that attempt to deny it down real quick. Since the english translation just got backed up by it's original version, count me as an agree.

Yeah they used to be 4-A but Hades's 4-A feat was deemed not actually a 4-A feat, and Dyntos's only scales to him because he's the strongest being in the verse (verbatim stated to surpass the likes of Hades)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks great to me.

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Finally, Kid Icarus getting the respect it deserves. Hard agree

 

[Hypertornado099]

Do we see it in cutscenes?

 

[Luckyfun]

Agree for now. Wait someone else to comment.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Do we see it in cutscenes?

The ship that Palutena mentions? No, not really

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I agree with the upgrades if the CGMs seem to approve though it should be mentioned the dialogue is consistent with certain lore statements iirc.

Also fun fact: in the Pre-Hades part of KI when Dark Pit takes out the underworld guardian, in the Eng dub it makes it seem like Dark Pit effortlessly took out the boss and ofc seem badass doing it while in the JP dub Dark Pit actually injuries himself taking out the boss and calls into question if he'll survive.

Just another quirk of localization.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Yeah they used to be 4-A but Hades's 4-A feat was deemed not actually a 4-A feat, and Dyntos's only scales to him because he's the strongest being in the verse (verbatim stated to surpass the likes of Hades)

I see. Dyntos shouldn't have been changed iirc. It was verbatim stated that he created the backgrounds of the worlds/places that Pit ventured to throughout his adventures, which includes various places with starry skies and such.

 

[SamanPatou]

Ok so, the original characters are these "まるで陸地のような戦艦ですね。", which can be translated as (I'm using chatgpt, it's quite good) It's a battleship that looks just like land, but the character 陸地" (rikuchi) can also be interpreted as continent, or landmass, and accord to the AI It generally refers to "land" as opposed to water, but it varies depending on the context.

I'm not sure if it should be taken as explicitly a continent in this case, or just a generic big amount of land, as it is clearly meant to emphasize the size of the ship, nor if it should be taken as literal exposition and not as a hyperbolic metaphor.

I agree with the upgrades if the CGMs seem to approve though it should be mentioned the dialogue is consistent with certain lore statements iirc.

Which ones?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'd rather use a more reliable translation than ChatGPT, which I think the video I sent is. And there's no reason for Palutena to be shocked over it "looking like land."

It's self-evidently continent sized

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'd rather use a more reliable translation than ChatGPT, which I think the video I sent is. And there's no reason for Palutena to be shocked over it "looking like land."

It's self-evidently continent sized

Tbf it's not wrong, a quick search on google tells you the ai got it right, it's a term with multiple meanings, the translator's just chose the one that made more sense and was more impressive.
However, to me it helps to convey the idea that the ship is not totally specifically referred to as a continent, but rather compared to a gigantic mass of land.
Still, are there any shots of the hive? We should look at when Pyrron pushes it away, because if a ship alone is continent-sized, the hive would be terribly massive, possibly moon or planet size.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Which ones?

A weakened, injured Hades claiming he could decimate a county or two for souls, Virdi making a continental statement about her "claws", Poisdon stated to have domain over all the world's seas iirc, etc.

Also should be noted Virdi's reset bomb (which can quickly encompass an entire city and it's surrounding area) did nothing to the Auram Brain ship and only covered a small fraction of it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Still, are there any shots of the hive? We should look at when Pyrron pushes it away, because if a ship alone is continent-sized, the hive would be terribly massive, possibly moon or planet size.

That's what I'm trying to find, but unfortunately I'm coming up short

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tbf it's not wrong, a quick search on google tells you the ai got it right, it's a term with multiple meanings, the translator's just chose the one that made more sense and was more impressive.
However, to me it helps to convey the idea that the ship is not totally specifically referred to as a continent, but rather compared to a gigantic mass of land.

Also, I don't see why I should be trusting a Google search + ChatGPT over actual human translation. Not to mention, even this still does not go against the ship being continent-sized. There's no contradiction, it's simply a term with multiple meanings and a specific one was used. Why would Palutena be surprised over a ship that's just like land?

 

[Nierre]

W Kid Icarus Fans

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Tbf it's not wrong, a quick search on google tells you the ai got it right, it's a term with multiple meanings, the translator's just chose the one that made more sense and was more impressive.
However, to me it helps to convey the idea that the ship is not totally specifically referred to as a continent, but rather compared to a gigantic mass of land.
Still, are there any shots of the hive? We should look at when Pyrron pushes it away, because if a ship alone is continent-sized, the hive would be terribly massive, possibly moon or planet size.

I don't trust AIs for stuff like that and it's literally common knowledge to the staff that they should not be prioritized over human translators.

 

[SamanPatou]

I mean, the translations I gave are not wrong, they check out with even the one provided by the official game, so I don't see why everyone is getting super upset as if I gave a completely different version.
But the point here is the same as the good old Hoshi term, of which we have discussed so much on many different occasions, with it meaning star or planet depending on the context. Here I'm not trying to disprove the continent thing, but rather introduce the fact the statement might not be exactly literal.

Anyway, to get on more concrete matters, I went back to check the scene where Pyrron pushes away the Aurum Brain, and we see a shot of it from the planet.
Now, I don't how how to compare the Brain to the Battleship, but visually speaking is clearly much, much bigger than it.
Clover's original calc calc'ed the planet's curvature from tha scene, so it's at least something.

Now I'm speaking out of ignorance, not hubris, but does the Brain look like it could be continent-size+++ from that scene in space? Does it check out?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, the translations I gave are not wrong, they check out with even the one provided by the official game, so I don't see why everyone is getting super upset as if I gave a completely different version.

Probably because you're trying to use machine translation + a Google search to try and make a point about a human translation

But the point here is the same as the good old Hoshi term, of which we have discussed so much on many different occasions, with it meaning star or planet depending on the context. Here I'm not trying to disprove the continent thing, but rather introduce the fact the statement might not be exactly literal.

But the way you're doing so doesn't actually succeed, because all the reliable translations state it's the size of a continent and you have to look to a machine translation to even get remotely close to that idea. I don't find this to be a particularly convincing argument, or a valid reason for the continent statement not being literal

Anyway, to get on more concrete matters, I went back to check the scene where Pyrron pushes away the Aurum Brain, and we see a shot of it from the planet.
Now, I don't how how to compare the Brain to the Battleship, but visually speaking is clearly much, much bigger than it.
Clover's original calc calc'ed the planet's curvature from tha scene, so it's at least something.

Now I'm speaking out of ignorance, not hubris, but does the Brain look like it could be continent-size+++ from that scene in space? Does it check out?

I mean we can't really say one way or another for certain. I did a calc, yes, but planet curvature scaling is incredibly unreliable when other methods are available

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, the translations I gave are not wrong, they check out with even the one provided by the official game, so I don't see why everyone is getting super upset as if I gave a completely different version.
But the point here is the same as the good old Hoshi term, of which we have discussed so much on many different occasions, with it meaning star or planet depending on the context. Here I'm not trying to disprove the continent thing, but rather introduce the fact the statement might not be exactly literal.

Anyway, to get on more concrete matters, I went back to check the scene where Pyrron pushes away the Aurum Brain, and we see a shot of it from the planet.
Now, I don't how how to compare the Brain to the Battleship, but visually speaking is clearly much, much bigger than it.
Clover's original calc calc'ed the planet's curvature from tha scene, so it's at least something.

Now I'm speaking out of ignorance, not hubris, but does the Brain look like it could be continent-size+++ from that scene in space? Does it check out?

I understand that there are good times to play Devil's Advocate, but I do not see this as an example. The American localization gives us the information of a continent, and a reliable human translator who speaks Japanese fluidly also says Continent. Eyeball analyze has never been a reliable method either, as it's rare for game designers to actually measure pixels accurately.

I agree with Clover Dragon that this should just be too obvious, plus again. It is literally against the rules to rely heavily on a machine translator instead of letting multilinguistic members do their job.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree with Clover Dragon that this should just be too obvious, plus again. It is literally against the rules to rely heavily on a machine translator instead of letting multilinguistic members do their job.

I will say that this isn't the work of a Translation Helper, but rather, a YouTube video of the Japanese game with English subtitles. I can put this in the Translation Requests Thread if absolutely necessary, but I'm not sure it is considering this translation and the English localization supporting it

 

[SamanPatou]

I mean, it's only about one single character, it's a one liner we are dealing with, not a novel.
The character extracted by the machine 陸地 (rikuchi) checks out with the subs of the game, it's literally that.
Look for that character on internet or check around with people, you'll get that, it's exactly like Hoshi, it has multiple meanings.
What I'm saying here is not that it doesn't translate to Continent as well, but just that it isn't just that.
My point is that Palutena's statement might not have bee exactly literal, as in an exposition about the true size of the ship. She does that often, when she goes super nerdy on enemies and stuff, even in that same chapter, so you could account for that, but I don't see the same leitmotiv here of her going professor.

That said, we want to scrap the character? The planet curvature is not realible? We still get a shot from space, we see a piece of the planet, but does the Aurum Brain's portrayal check the supposed size? Because that would be several times than the battleship, meaning it should be, idk, the size of three continents.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, it's only about one single character, it's a one liner we are dealing with, not a novel.
The character extracted by the machine 陸地 (rikuchi) checks out with the subs of the game, it's literally that.
Look for that character on internet or check around with people, you'll get that, it's exactly like Hoshi, it has multiple meanings.
What I'm saying here is not that it doesn't translate to Continent as well, but just that it isn't just that.
My point is that Palutena's statement might not have bee exactly literal, as in an exposition about the true size of the ship. She does that often, when she goes super nerdy on enemies and stuff, even in that same chapter, so you could account for that, but I don't see the same leitmotiv here of her going professor.

You haven't given a reason for why Palutena would be exaggerating or otherwise not literal here

That said, we want to scrap the character? The planet curvature is not realible? We still get a shot from space, we see a piece of the planet, but does the Aurum Brain's portrayal check the supposed size? Because that would be several times than the battleship, meaning it should be, idk, the size of three continents.

It's very hard to see anything on the Earth, but it seems to?

 

[Armorchompy]

Sorry, what?

It's in front of the planet here. It's obviously smaller. "PCS isn't very reliable" isn't a valid counterpoint, there is no logical interpretation in which something bigger than the planet Earth can look smaller while being closer to the POV than it- that's just the opposite of how perspective works.

If the only evidence against this is an off-hand "size of a continent" statement, I am absolutely against the new calculation.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Bro... No one said it was bigger than Earth

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In that case, just let a Multilinguistic member take a look.

 

[SamanPatou]

I think the point hinges on it still not being portrayed.
We see Pit next to the battleship and then him approaching the Brain, which is visually massive compared to the ship, much more than 3 times or such.
This would mean the Brain is size of 10, 20 or whatever continents, basically a moon or giant asteroid.
But then we see it somewhat close to the Earth's surface and doesn't look nowhere that big.
Palutena might not be lying, but she can very well be exaggerating, because that battleship is indeed massive, but not necessarily that much.

 

[Armorchompy]

Bro... No one said it was bigger than Earth

Alright, fair enough, I did misread in that regard, but it's clearly not the size of Australia either- It's in front of the planet and looks nowhere near its size (which would be like, a third of the planet). PCS is rough and results can be skewed a bit but like, even in the shot I posted where it's closer to the POV it looks like it's not even a fifth of that, and that's without considering that this ship is allegedly much bigger than the continent one.

 

[Armorchompy]

For the record I don't have issues regarding the translation. Regarding the statement- I don't think Palutena shouldn't be assumed not to be ******* around while Pit is in danger like, ever. That's basically half of what she does in the game. Even disregarding that, Pit's looking at the ship too, she's not exactly giving him some key information that he wouldn't have any access to otherwise. I'm not saying the statement is entirely invalid but I wouldn't consider it to be bulletproof either.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Regarding the statement- I don't think Palutena shouldn't be assumed not to be ******* around while Pit is in danger like, ever. That's basically half of what she does in the game.

This is true, but not usually in the climax of what I'd call the "arcs" of the game (Medusa fight, Aurum Brain, Hades, etc.)

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah I mean, I don't think she's purposefully lying to him or anything, but at the same time if it were a hyperbole it wouldn't be throwing him off track or anything- she'd just be stating the obvious of "whoa that thing is very big".

For the record if we didn't see the brain's size relative to the planet this wouldn't be a problem, this is a very secondary concern, just one I wanted to get out there.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Personally I tend to value statements over visuals given how I've seen visuals get inconsistent, but I'm kinda indifferent to this either way

 

[Luckyfun]

The only thing that i assume is problematic is the size of continent refer to same size as Australia.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Agree with Amor, its clearly shown to not be continent sized