Kengan-verse revision(3'rd attempt)

[Mikazzzuchi]

Greetings one and all, I'm going to dedicate this thread to the intra-verse scaling of the "Kengan verse".
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LS
Kiryu breaks concrete(Class K; scalable to almost everyone in the verse due to low setsuna scores relative to fighters)
High-tiers scale to Class M due to Julius
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Speed
Inaba blocks bullets (supersonic; scaling to most of the verse)
Rei puts a speed blitz on Nezu (High hypersonic; scalable to high-tier characters, given moments like Raian's victory over Rei, as well as Saw Paing's dodge)

Supporting calculation:
Ohma reflects the kick of inaba(Hypersonic; scalable to most of the verse)

Fei sees Waka in slow-mo (High hypersonic+; scalable to Fei himself and, also, to Shen Wulong.)
————————
A.P.
Most of the verse is scalable to 8-A due to Ohma (Ohma's child is very low scaled within the power scaling; I'll also mention that the shockwave, whose KE we actually counted and in the center of which was Ohma - absolutely no effect on him, which logically leads to the conclusion that Niko's strikes are scales higher, which gives us an easy key to scaling, as Oma tanked these strikes in a dying state.)
Wakatsuki shakes the mountain (7-C; Scalable to the high-tiers of the verse; consider the x3 multiplier for Waka's kick, which is quite scalable to himself, and you get 50 kilotons, which can scale to the strongest in the verse)

 

[NikHelton]

True sigma thread

 

[Excellence616]

I agree since the Calcs are accepted

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

Fai

Minor spelling mistake, watching and liking what's going on here, and of course agree.(I'm actually neutral I want to see what's going on)

 

[azontr]

This is so ass.

 

[SeijiSetto]

i dun really care about the speed ones beyond stating the infamous "Kuroki had to train to use Pre-Initiative to block an 800m/s bullet"
AP ones i have issues with though. i left comments on them.

 

[LordGinSama]

i dun really care about the speed ones beyond stating the infamous "Kuroki had to train to use Pre-Initiative to block an 800m/s bullet"

As per the last chapter this is invalid. Gaolang can punch you fast enough to overpower ones Foresight, the same thing that allowed Kuroki to block rifle bullets.

 

[azontr]

Gaolong punching fast enough to overpower foresight doesn't mean he's faster than bullets. It just means he can punch faster than people who are slower than bullets can think.

 

[LordGinSama]

Gaolong punching fast enough to overpower foresight doesn't mean he's faster than bullets. It just means he can punch faster than people who are slower than bullets can think.

He's punching fast enough to neg Foresight. Foresight is what allows you to block and react to gunfire, it's solely about speed for Gao's "Foresight killing." unlike other counters to Foresight which don't use speed.

Now if I'm not mistaken your interpretation is simply Gao striking faster than the opponent can think yes?

 

[azontr]

Foresight is what allows you to block and react to gunfire,

Gaolong overpowered Pre-Initiative, which is moving before your attacker moves by figuring out when they think to move. Pre-Initiative does not let you react to an attack, it let's you move before the attack is thrown to create the illusion you've reacted to it.

 

[LordGinSama]

Gaolong overpowered Pre-Initiative, which is moving before your attacker moves by figuring out when they think to move. Pre-Initiative does not let you react to an attack, it let's you move before the attack is thrown to create the illusion you've reacted to it.

Hm fair enough, might disagree with a tiny lil portion of your argument but yeah that's pretty valid.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Kiryu breaks concrete(Class K; scalable to almost everyone in the verse due to low setsuna scores relative to fighters)

Link isn't working.

And what justification do you have for Kiryu being below most of the other fighters, physically?

High-tiers scale to Class M due to Julius

In terms of lifting strength the only people who should really scale are the likes of Waka/Toa/other characters with god tier physical specs. Characters like Ohma wouldn't scale.

Neutral on most of the rest.

 

[NikHelton]

Link isn't working.

And what justification do you have for Kiryu being below most of the other fighters, physically?

Some kengan-verse LS calcs

vsbattles.fandom.com

At least because the feat was performed by Kiryu when he was 12 years old and had just finished being a prostitute

In terms of lifting strength the only people who should really scale are the likes of Waka/Toa/other characters with god tier physical specs. Characters like Ohma wouldn't scale.

Ohma scales with Advance because it holds physical pressure with Raian and as we saw with Fei, Advance gives an LS boost.

Shen Wulong is already scaling on his page, but I'm not sure about it

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

At least because the feat was performed by Kiryu when he was 12 years old and had just finished being a prostitute

Ah, yeah. I can agree that even the lower tier fighters should be above child Kiryu.

Ohma scales with Advance because it holds physical pressure with Raian and as we saw with Fei, Advance gives an LS boost.

I mean, the fact that Fei needed to max out divine demon, a technique far more powerful than advance, just to overpower Wakatsuki’s grip, makes Ohma scaling with just his basic advance rather odd.

Julius & Waka are explicitly physically stronger than Raian regardless. I'm not sure he'd scale either, physically.

 

[NikHelton]

Julius & Waka are explicitly physically stronger than Raian regardless. I'm not sure he'd scale either, physically.

Members of the Kure Clan are actively shown to be superhuman and capable of lifting a car.

Agito claimed Raian's possible superiority over Wakatsuki, although this was later refuted. However, Raian is still comparable to them to some extent, especially considering that all of their feats are executed sloppily.
Moreover, we have a feat where the Kure clan, using their bare hands and tools, completely opened and destroyed Yamashita's armored house

 

[NikHelton]

Phew, soon we can do Shen Wulong vs Yujiro

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

Interesting stuff, I do think I'll move to agree at this stage predominately with the speed.
There's plenty of evidence of characters getting to the point that they can casually use gunfire as a method to train themselves, so I see no issues with the speed personally outside of the use of perception for the Fei feat as I find the use of perception to be sometimes icky to me but if it's good to go send it.

The AP for the second one actually needs some work as well just different values, for example the mountain shaking could be a magnitude 4-5 comparable range in addition to that there is the fact the force would need to be less if it was sunken into the crater as Kazzy points out, the next part is using some maths to determine the height of the mountain using the airplane and the distance from it. ... oh and the biggest thing, it never established the the size of the arena, in tandem with that point I believe the angels of observation between the first and second scan are different from one another and need to be taken into account for the angle height of Akoya and so on... ... honestly it's best to not use the current calc and simply redo it from the bottom up.
The AP for the first one might also need some work, if you are using a form of explosive calculation I suggest looking at this for a moment

Types of external explosions and blast loadings; (a) Free-air bursts, (b) Air bursts, and (c) Surface bursts.​

This would be a case of Surface burst however it's a bit.. lopsided with the distribution, so you'll want to add some fun trigonometery to your calculations to determine a better estimate of your original calc for the first feat you are using.

I don't disagree with your conclusion I disagree with how you arrived at it. I agree most people in the verse should be stronger than kid Ohma, and I agree with the top of the verse being relative to Wakasuki in some capacity.

 

[NikHelton]

Actually the size of the mountain doesn't really matter in the calculation, so it's ok

No, Demonsbane's calculation does not use the explosion formula. This is KE.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Members of the Kure Clan are actively shown to be superhuman and capable of lifting a car.

lifting a car isn't even class K, much less support for them scaling to Julius’s rating.

Agito claimed Raian's possible superiority over Wakatsuki, although this was later refuted.

You can be a superior fighter to Wakatsuki and be physically weaker than he is, though. The series is fairly consistent that Waka is above everyone in the KAT in terms of physical might (aside from Julius).

Moreover, we have a feat where the Kure clan, using their bare hands and tools, completely opened and destroyed Yamashita's armored house

I'm not sure how this is relevant. The Kure are superhumanly strong, we know this. There's just a difference between them and the physical pinnacle of the verse.

 

[Viott]

Wakatsuki shakes the mountain (7-C; Scalable to the high-tiers of the verse; consider the x3 multiplier for Waka's kick, which is quite scalable to himself, and you get 50 kilotons, which can scale to the strongest in the verse)

I disagree with this calculation. I actually left a comment but you ignored it. Anyway, I will repeat, as I said, there is no evidence that the entire mountain is shaking, I only see a part of the mountain shaking.

Also SeijiSetto said that mag 4 should be used.

 

[NikHelton]

I disagree with this calculation. I actually left a comment but you ignored it. Anyway, I will repeat, as I said, there is no evidence that the entire mountain is shaking, I only see a part of the mountain shaking.

Also SeijiSetto said that mag 4 should be used.

calculation was changed from vibration to earthquake, so the width of the mountain doesn't matter much anyway

 

[NikHelton]

lifting a car isn't even class K, much less support for them scaling to Julius’s rating.

It is understandable, but it is worth considering the narrative.
In context, this is described as a force outside the body and we can draw a parallel with Julius, who also stopped the car

You can be a superior fighter to Wakatsuki and be physically weaker than he is, though. The series is fairly consistent that Waka is above everyone in the KAT in terms of physical might (aside from Julius).

Considering Agito's arrogance, in that case he would at least mention himself.

Moreover, he would mention Hatsumi, who already defeated Wakatsuki, mention Kuroki, who already caught his attention, and probably Ohma, who defeated Raian.

However, I am inclined to believe that the context is specifically about physical strength, because on the page where Wakatsuki is thinking about Julius and Raian, he thinks: “This is the first time I feel like I can lose to someone in strength” (chapter 137).

We also have Kengan Omega, where Naiden is compared specifically to Wakatsuki, Julius and Raian, which should indicate their comparability.

 

[Viott]

calculation was changed from vibration to earthquake, so the width of the mountain doesn't matter much anyway

That still doesn't make sense to me because you are assuming that the entire size of the mountain is shaking, but we see in the panel that part of the mountain is shaking.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'd definitely say Raian with Removal scales relative to Waka and Julius. My guy literally manhandled Willem who has Superman Syndrome and Removal a few chapters ago, Kanoh has compared them before and even average Kure fodder can tear apart bomb proof steel with their bare hands.

I'd like to keep speed a separate topic since I'd like to remove the whole anti bullet timing agenda.

 

[NikHelton]

That still doesn't make sense to me because you are assuming that the entire size of the mountain is shaking, but we see in the panel that part of the mountain is shaking.

Shape of a pyramid, purely physically, does not imply movement of only the upper part. Moreover, we see that the picture shows approximately half of the mountain with intense strokes going down, which indicates the scale

 

[NikHelton]

I'd definitely say Raian with Removal scales relative to Waka and Julius. My guy literally manhandled Willem who has Superman Syndrome and Removal a few chapters ago, Kanoh has compared them before and even average Kure fodder can tear apart bomb proof steel with their bare hands.

I'd like to keep speed a separate topic since I'd like to remove the whole anti bullet timing agenda.

What do you think about AP calculations?

 

[Viott]

Shape of a pyramid, purely physically, does not imply movement of only the upper part. Moreover, we see that the picture shows approximately half of the mountain with intense strokes going down, which indicates the scale

However, as SeijiSetto said, there is no damage to the dome, so I don't think mag 6 should be used, I think something like mag 4 should be used instead.

 

[azontr]

My guy literally manhandled Willem who has Superman Syndrome and Removal a few chapters ago

He was using Point of Force skill shit to do that, tho.

Not to mention, Willem's Superman Syndrome probably doesn't have the same potency as Waka's. Waka is consistently an outlier when it comes to sheer muscle density, he's a freak of nature.

 

[Mikazzzuchi]

Link isn't working.

Fixed

 

[Mikazzzuchi]

And what justification do you have for Kiryu being below most of the other fighters, physically?

Kiryu kid is fodder for kid Ohma, who in turn, 10 years later, has been given a hard time by guys like Lihito(Omega Lihito>>>KAT Lihito>Lihito at the beginning of the manga, by the way)

 

[Mikazzzuchi]

However, as SeijiSetto said, there is no damage to the dome, so I don't think mag 6 should be used, I think something like mag 4 should be used instead.

The arena is located in the core of volcano (the most dangerous place from the point of view of earthquakes) and accordingly should have seismic protection, like Japanese houses now.

And the fact that the earthquake is visible from a great distance indicates that it is well felt at a great distance, which corresponds to magnitude 6.

 

[NikHelton]

By the way, is Shen Wulong an extraordinary genius? Eventually he understood the very basis and principles of martial arts and invented pseudo-reincarnation

 

[NikHelton]

The arena is located in the core of volcano (the most dangerous place from the point of view of earthquakes) and accordingly should have seismic protection, like Japanese houses now.

And the fact that the earthquake is visible from a great distance indicates that it is well felt at a great distance, which corresponds to magnitude 6.

Of all the languages he chose the language of facts

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

In context, this is described as a force outside the body and we can draw a parallel with Julius, who also stopped the car

Two completely incomparable feats.

Moreover, he would mention Hatsumi, who already defeated Wakatsuki, mention Kuroki, who already caught his attention, and probably Ohma, who defeated Raian.

Agito was specifically referring to the Left Block. Agito thought Raian would destroy Ohma, so he believed Wakatsuki would need to beat both Julius and Raian to win his block.

“This is the first time I feel like I can lose to someone in strength”

This statement was pretty clearly made in relation to Julius’s strength, not Raian’s. The very same chapter already confirms The Kure Clan doesn't come close to Waka, physically.

also have Kengan Omega, where Naiden is compared specifically to Wakatsuki, Julius and Raian, which should indicate their comparability.

Naiden was stated to have strength above everyone on the team ASIDE from those three. That doesn't mean there comparable, just that there all above the rest.

This also runs counter to your narrative that advance Ohma would scale to class M, btw. Since that pretty explicitly confirm he's not at their level in terms of physical brawn alone.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

I have no idea why we are bringing up Asura, Omega (Pre-Timeskip) and Omega (Post-Timeskip) scaling all in a single thread btw.

I've always advocated for tackling Asura scaling first, to simplify this entire process. Especially since multiple characters would logically have multiple keys across the time periods.

 

[NikHelton]

Two completely incomparable feats.

In fact, context plays a big role. This is described as a force that transcends the limits of the body's capabilities and puts Kure on a level above other people. The same place where Wakatsuki and Julius are.

Agito was specifically referring to the Left Block. Agito thought Raian would destroy Ohma, so he believed Wakatsuki would need to beat both Julius and Raian to win his block.

Well, that makes sense, but they are often mentioned together when it comes to brute force

This statement was pretty clearly made in relation to Julius’s strength, not Raian’s. The very same chapter already confirms The Kure Clan doesn't come close to Waka, physically.

Its make a sense

This also runs counter to your narrative that advance Ohma would scale to class M, btw. Since that pretty explicitly confirm he's not at their level in terms of physical brawn alone.

In general, I do not understand why the Advance generally increases the strength of the body and LS, however, we directly see that in the collision of a direct onslaught they hold parity

 

[NikHelton]

I have no idea why we are bringing up Asura, Omega (Pre-Timeskip) and Omega (Post-Timeskip) scaling all in a single thread btw.

I've always advocated for tackling Asura scaling first, to simplify this entire process. Especially since multiple characters would logically have multiple keys across the time periods.

In fact, the problem is that not all fighters have increased their stats.
When the body is improved to the limit, it is the turn to improve techniques and timings, so the Kuroki of the Asura times should not differ in its characteristics from the Kuroki Omega.

And it's all about Wakatsuki, from which the scaling comes. His strength level is directly related to his muscles, but in 4 years he has not gained a single kilogram and has also not been designated as having become much stronger, so it makes sense to leave him one key.

I think splitting into multiple keys is rather an exception.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

I'm going to set aside the lifting strength debate, the others can agree or disagree.

When the body is improved to the limit, it is the turn to improve techniques and timings, so the Kuroki of the Asura times should not differ in its characteristics from the Kuroki Omega

While I do agree that additional key may not be necessary for the majority of characters, I would like to point out technique in Kengan directly correlates with AP, to an extent.

The force of Ohma’s ironbreaker increased by several times, just by improving the technique behind his punch.

The two are inherently related in verse. Even putting aside that most people in the verse likely have not reached their “physical limits” like Ohma has.

 

[NikHelton]

I'm going to set aside the lifting strength debate, the others can agree or disagree.


While I do agree that additional key may not be necessary for the majority of characters, I would like to point out technique in Kengan directly correlates with AP, to an extent.

The force of Ohma’s ironbreaker increased by several times, just by improving the technique behind his punch.

The two are inherently related in verse. Even putting aside that most people in the verse likely have not reached their “physical limits” like Ohma has.

Yes, I definitely agree that it makes sense for some characters.

However, such characters as Okubo, Sekibayashi, Wakatsuki, Saw Paing remained at the same level of physical development and only learned new techniques. The same Himuro was always strong, but showed himself only in the second part of the manga.

But the difference between Omega BoS Rihito and Current Rihito is really huge.

P.s.: The constant change of transcriptions infuriates me so much. Rihito became Lihito, Lolong became Rolan, Gaolang became Kaolan.
New transcriptions sound cool, but I'm so used to the old ones

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

I suppose we can judge it on a case-by-case basis. I don't mean to derail this thread when the wider calculation are still being discussed.

another CRT can be made later for which calcs apply to which characters, specifically. Since that's going to be a whole separate issue then getting the values themselves.