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Thank you for helping out, @DontTalkDT and @Qawsedf234 .
What do you think about the replies to DontTalk's questions?
What do you think about the replies to DontTalk's questions?
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Katekyo Hitman Reborn Upscaling via Black Holes
- Thread starter Tetsuya1029
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Maybe you could upload screencapture images of the calculations to our wiki, and then display them in a blog post there, while giving full credit to the original calcer?
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Even if I wanted to, a VC debate about this is irrelevant since it would be off-site.
It's a real black hole and I don't except a 1:1 depiction like with a real black hole. But the fact a character stated he wasn't past the event horizon yet means he's not past the event horizon.
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You keep stating this, but it's never stated in the manga. I've checked, but I have not seen a character state "He is not in the Event Horizon"
Could you please show me a scan for this?
If you're speaking of Reborn stating that if he gets swallowed by the black hole, then it'll be the end, then refer to my previous comment.
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I don't care if it's off site? I just want a linear dialogue with you. We can even screen record it and I'll upload to my debate account to have it be evidence or we can come back and summarize it. Plus, as a mod, I mean your word should have weight to it so does it matter if its off site when we can have evidence for it? Tetsuya#4495
So we agree that it is real and a 1:1 depiction is not necessary but that also makes your point of "well it doesn't go into the event horizon" moot as that's quite literally the only thing one would need to draw for a 100% completely accurate looking black hole... Also, no one stated that he was not past the event horizon. If someone explicitly stated "Tsuna is not inside the event horizon of the black hole" or something along those lines, I'd like to see where.
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original calcer here, I'm fine with this.
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Are you pxl or did you give him the calc?
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They say if he gets caught in it its over, then after powering up he escapes its pull. At no point was it stated he was inside of a black hole and he was never in the Schwarzschild radius since he never entered the black hole proper going by the calced sizes.
Its says he'll die if he's sucked in and avoids being sucked in. The characters say "Not even light can escape" meaning that the speed of light is treated as a notable speed barrier. If they were FTL then it wouldn't be an issue.
The calc for the rating also assumes the black spots for the black holes are its Schwarzschild radius and the character never entered those. If you're saying he did then the calcs need to be adjusted or scrapped completely.
I do, because otherwise I don't see how its relevant here.
The sole area I disagree with in regards to this thread is the arbitrarily high speed calc that used time dilatation to get a timeframe for an event, when that wouldn't matter since the event happens where other people can view it and time dilatation wouldn't change the required speed to leave the gravitational field in the first place.
They're real black hole, its fine to use them for an AP rating in my view. I just don't believe they qualify for a FTL rating based on their interaction with them.
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I gave him the calc. He did the time dilation part. I just did the base calc. I wouldn't add in time dilation personally.
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Ant what do you think? Should we still wait on DT's evaluation?
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No. Reborn was referring to the singularity inside the black hole. Not the event horizon. Those are two completely different things. Also, Tsuna stated he was being sucked in. It is clearly meant to be an ftl feat. The statement you throw up as counter-evidence does not explicitly state he wasn't within the event horizon. Reborn was referring to the singularity inside. Not the event horizon. We know this because he was talking about not being able to retain form, which is what the singularity does, not the event horizon. He stated once you get sucked in, meaning past the event horizon. You are right. The speed of light is treated as a notable barrier. A barrier the feat was meant to show being broken.
Who said I wanted it to be relevant here? I want to debate you to change YOUR mind. Not this websites. I want to debate you because you contend this argument. Do not assume that I'm making this post to change things here. Like I stated in the post itself, I intend to debate anyone who has contention with this in a one on one debate. And that is what I intend to do. So I would love to hop in vc with you. The others would like to spectate. This is not for the sake of the profile on this website. This is for the sake of one human to another discussing differing perspectives.
Like I said earlier, just ignore the time dilation. I'm not going to refer to that. I just used the post to get the base calc shown. I have the actual calc copied and pasted in my notes. Also, I don't find the use of the word "arbitrarily" to be used properly here.
We can agree they are real black holes. We agreed prior that it doesn't need to be "Oh it needs accretion disks and also plasma surrounding it, etc." essentially a 1:1 depiction of a scientifically accurate black hole for it to be a real black hole. So if we go along those lines, one, you would be agreeing with me that the event horizon does not need be explicitly drawn, therefore can be arbitrarily placed, and two, your argument of not being within the event horizon is moot as we don't necessarily need can event horizon to be depicted.
But again, I'd love to have this be a linear dialogue discussion, like how proper debates happen. It is not for the sake of the website, but for the sake of truth and understanding it in a timely and professional manner.
Tetsuya#4495
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we should wait for them all to debate me lol
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If the AP calc hasn't been approved of, yes. Otherwise the changes can be applied now.
If it's about the speed stuff then it would still need to be transferred over and looked at.
I can believe that reading of events I guess
I have quite literally never read or seen this series before this thread. Someone just asked me to look at this CRT and give my view point knowing that.
If this was about a franchise I was well versed in, sure, I would debate you even if overall I find it to be a pointless exercise. But I'm not going into a recored conversation off-site to weigh in on a subject I know nothing about other than two chapters of a story with over 400.
I didn't say it needed to be correctly drawn, I said the calc used the dark spot to get a size. That size is therefore the event horizon of a black hole according to the calc, if the character never entered in that portion of the black hole I don't see why we should say they're FTL rather than some degree of Relativistic.
So either the event horizon is bigger than the calc is suggesting or it's not a FTL feat. Though if you were to really push it, I guess the guy's statement about light not escaping could imply that the other person needed to go FTL to escape the Black Hole. But I tend to go with the lower interpretation most of the time if I find it vague like it is here..
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Yeah it's been approved by a cgm
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I understand you have never had any prior contact with the series (not many people have so I just assumed so) but I mean, you don't really need to know the lore behind the series or the power system of the series to discuss this feat. It's just all physics nonsense. No need to know anything in the series other than these two pages of the manga. And yes, I understand this is your point of view on the matter and I'm here to try to get you to see from mine and I'm assuming vice versa. Trust me. You quite literally do not need to know anything other than the manga panels that have been presented here which is the three main manga panels shown on here.
If we are assuming that the black area is the event horizon, it is longer than the distance between Tsuna and the center of it so it would technically encompass that area as well.
As you can see here, there is absolutely no reference or even mention of any other manga panels, pages, continuity, etc. at all whatsoever. It is just these two manga pages.
So, hop in vc and we can discuss this in a linear fashion. Tetsuya#4495
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Refer to the comment I made previous to this one:
Because that statement fits the bill of the Black Hole's center of mass more than the event horizon.
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You're missing my point. The calc works by getting the event horizon of a black hole. The area they measured across for the calc is therefore the point where light can no longer escape it. At the core point of a black hole the density is infinite, but that's not what the calc is about.
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So because the calc uses the event horizon, Tsuna can't be at the event horizon? That line of logic seems faulty
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Because the calc assumes the dark spot is the event horizon, then we will treat the black spot as the event horizon. Since the character was never in the black spot, he wasn't in the event horizon.
If was in the event horizon then the calc needs the be redone. If it doesn't need to be redone then he wasn't ever in the event horizon.
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Thank you very much for helping out, @Qawsedf234 . So what are the conclusions regarding what we should do here from you and other staff members?
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Well there's nothing I can do if that's how it works, though it's a shame because the calc will most likely be inaccurate.
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AP can be applied, I disagree with the proposed FTL rating, the MFTL+ calc still needs to be imported.
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The Vindice value (2.07859548e+37, 60x the calced value) is only about 3.3x lower than the top bound for Large Planet level, so I think they and the characters who scale to them should get an "At least". Oath Flame Tsuna should get a "likely higher" for being significantly stronger than normal Vindice, who are already close to the edge of the tier. Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna probably can get Dwarf Star level as well, as Bermuda stomped Oath Flame Tsuna who is significantly above normal Vindice, and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna stomped him.
Kawahira should comfortably get Dwarf Star level. He is currently scaled to 30x the Vindice value, but this is a huge lowball. It comes from him stating that he can create flames "several tens the likes" of Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna's, who is already vastly above normal Vindice. Because of how much of a lowball this value is, and how casually he performed the feat, I think he should also get "likely far higher" which is what he already has anyway.
In summary:
Large Planet level for characters who scale to Enma (3.4643258e+35)
Large Planet level for characters who scale to Daemon Spade (3.4643258e+36, 10x previous value)
At least Large Planet level for characters who scale to Vindice (>2.07859548e+37, 6x previous value)
At least Large Planet level, likely higher for Oath Flame Tsuna (>>2.07859548e+37)
Dwarf Star level for Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna (>>>2.07859548e+37)
At least Dwarf Star level, likely far higher for Kawahira (Vastly upscales from 6.23578644e+38, 30x previous value)
This is the scaling chain made by @ObberGobb
Kawahira should comfortably get Dwarf Star level. He is currently scaled to 30x the Vindice value, but this is a huge lowball. It comes from him stating that he can create flames "several tens the likes" of Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna's, who is already vastly above normal Vindice. Because of how much of a lowball this value is, and how casually he performed the feat, I think he should also get "likely far higher" which is what he already has anyway.
In summary:
Large Planet level for characters who scale to Enma (3.4643258e+35)
Large Planet level for characters who scale to Daemon Spade (3.4643258e+36, 10x previous value)
At least Large Planet level for characters who scale to Vindice (>2.07859548e+37, 6x previous value)
At least Large Planet level, likely higher for Oath Flame Tsuna (>>2.07859548e+37)
Dwarf Star level for Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna (>>>2.07859548e+37)
At least Dwarf Star level, likely far higher for Kawahira (Vastly upscales from 6.23578644e+38, 30x previous value)
This is the scaling chain made by @ObberGobb
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I feel we need to bring up the byakuran world destroying statement but that's not the purpose of this thread
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If it's what I think it is, then I don't really think its worth it. Its made clear that transporting the parallel Byakuran from his timeline is what caused the world to be destroyed; it's not really a power feat for Byakuran.
Anyways, cool to see the black holes are getting accepted this time around.
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What? I don't recall any implications that it was because he transported a parallel him, it was only impossible before
He outright states that he destroyed his world
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Semi busy and I'll grab the chapter later, so to the wiki I go
reborn.fandom.com
"Ghost is the real Lightning Funeral Wreath and possesses the Lightning Mare Ring. Ghost is, in fact, a Byakuran who was brought over from one of the Parallel Worlds, destroying that world in the process."
It just has to due with that paradox in KHR. Byakuran himself said he only transported the parallel him with the technology he had
Ghost
Ghost is the real Lightning Funeral Wreath and possesses the Lightning Mare Ring. Ghost is, in fact, a Byakuran who was brought over from one of the Parallel Worlds, destroying that world in the process. Ghost himself is present only as a shape made up of Dying Will Flames, remaining a mutant...
reborn.fandom.com
"Ghost is the real Lightning Funeral Wreath and possesses the Lightning Mare Ring. Ghost is, in fact, a Byakuran who was brought over from one of the Parallel Worlds, destroying that world in the process."
It just has to due with that paradox in KHR. Byakuran himself said he only transported the parallel him with the technology he had
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Here's the statement
He talks of it as two different things hence the use of and
"I destroyed his world" and "I managed to bring him back"
There's no mention of a paradox leading to a world's destruction, only thing mentioned is it being impossible to bring a doppelganger into a different world
He talks of it as two different things hence the use of and
"I destroyed his world" and "I managed to bring him back"
There's no mention of a paradox leading to a world's destruction, only thing mentioned is it being impossible to bring a doppelganger into a different world
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I can see it fine but as you just agreed on it isn't the thread to talk about it but this statement wouldn't apply to Ghost and Byakuran.
Hope this appears since this site acts finicky with images
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Okay. That is probably fine then. Thank you for helping out.
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The only staff members besides me that have commented said:
- Universal sounds suspect
- No comment on black holes
- Black holes seem sketch (DT)
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This is what glass has to say about it. AKA possibly at most.
DT said mathwise it's fine, but he's not certain about the context (bc he doesn't read KHR)
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