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Kamijou Touma vs Crimson Flame Haze, Shana
- Thread starter Dragopentling
- Start date
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The experience level doesn't mean much. It is a nice addition yes, but you aren't gonna say a millenia old fighter is better than a veteran that's been fighting for a decade if they haven't fought and the veteran shows much better skill feats, just because he has more experience. If those dudes Shana beats don't have the skill feats to accompany the experience ones, I don't see much.
Also, any touch to his hand would work. And considering he mainly uses said hand, either Shana is evading fully every attack or Alastor is out. And no Golden, Touma doesn't need Alastor to be out. He's still in her body and should still be affected, just the same as Gabriel would have been affected when it was using Misha's body. What reason do we have to think the opposite?
And again, you never pointed out which Thor you meant. Touma not landing a hit on Almighty Thor is as far away from proof as you can get when the guy flips the world specifically so your blows don't land, which entirely trivializes skill. I would also love seeing what implies Thor wasn't serious.
Also, any touch to his hand would work. And considering he mainly uses said hand, either Shana is evading fully every attack or Alastor is out. And no Golden, Touma doesn't need Alastor to be out. He's still in her body and should still be affected, just the same as Gabriel would have been affected when it was using Misha's body. What reason do we have to think the opposite?
And again, you never pointed out which Thor you meant. Touma not landing a hit on Almighty Thor is as far away from proof as you can get when the guy flips the world specifically so your blows don't land, which entirely trivializes skill. I would also love seeing what implies Thor wasn't serious.
GoldenScorpions
He/Him- 3,021
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Did Touma even touch Misha? I don't remember him doing so. And within the same arc, Touma touching everyone else who had swapped bodies didn't make them disappear or switch back to their original bodies, simply because they were affected by a supernatural phenomenon. He has to touch the source of the power. Same thing in Arc 1, when Touma had to touch the curse seal in Index's throat to negate it, not touch Index herself. Shana's source of power is the energy flowing inside her, which itself sources from Alastor.
When Touma touches a mage or esper, they don't disappear despite them being filled with supernatural. I don't see how touching Shana would make her disappear... she still has a human body
When Touma touches a mage or esper, they don't disappear despite them being filled with supernatural. I don't see how touching Shana would make her disappear... she still has a human body
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Nah im voted Touma Kamijou FRA.
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Are people seriously not considering that this takes place in an urban environment? Like guys... You KNOW that Touma is a street brawler, he uses the environment to his advantage. He WILL find something around that he can use to his advantage. Perhaps not to the point of resource capability of Hamazura but he is extremely battle savvy in urban environments. Heck, this was displayed way back at the beginning of the series with Stiyl. I'm not downplaying Shana's martial arts prowess but unless they're in a cramped room with little space to move like his parents' house, I doubt she can catch him that easily.
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mana (life force) is normal in index it's the refining process that it's not, index seal is completely different too as u said it's a seal, she is not possessed, and he does affect things inside someone just by touching them (examples last order when she had the virus from aiwass,misaka and fukyose when they got hit by curses)GoldenScorpions said:
he does negate AIM and refined mana, he just doesn't erase life force or the brains as those things are natural
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- Thread starter
- #128
^one of several helpful points made so far
(Even though thread is still pretty much done
)
(Even though thread is still pretty much done
)
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I mean, hasn't Touma already faced opponents much stronger than Shana? And even if Shana can fly, since the battle location is Academy City, a place he knows and lives in, cannot Touma use his surroundings to his advantage?
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Fukouda-san said:
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The worst thing about it is that given his absurd bad luck, it's not totally impossible. But welll, he is a peak human and could survive Othinus mindfuck so technically there is little chance that it happens.... Or he self-KO by accidentally falling from the roof of a building instead.
But more seriously, what I meant by that is that he could maybe manage to trick her into some alley where he knows he could get close/have a advantage. I'm pretty sure Touma can handle Shana. Plus, both her body and her katana are supernatural, right? She is a martial artist, but Touma's precog could probably help.
Unless someone has arguments in Shana's favour, Touman get my vote.
But more seriously, what I meant by that is that he could maybe manage to trick her into some alley where he knows he could get close/have a advantage. I'm pretty sure Touma can handle Shana. Plus, both her body and her katana are supernatural, right? She is a martial artist, but Touma's precog could probably help.
Unless someone has arguments in Shana's favour, Touman get my vote.
GoldenScorpions
He/Him- 3,021
- 1,215
Her sword, yes. Her body, no.Fukouda-san said:
What I don't understand is how Touma can beat Shana even if he manages to avoid her attacks. Shana's Tier is much higher than Touma's when talking about melee. Even if Touma can dodge her attacks, his own punches won't hurt her.
Are people seriously not considering that Shana is also an urban fighter, and that she's as much a ranged fighter as a melee fighter? This was said twice already, but what stops Shana from environment-destroying the place, once she realizes Touma keeps dodging her attacks?Kruull Thrull said:
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Well, even though she's also a melee fighter her sword is going to get destoyed the moment Touma's IB enters in contact with it, her powers wouldn't be very useful in close combat (I think ?) against Touma due to IB and precog, and he can probably dodge/handle her martial arts due to speed equalized and precog.
She may be an urban fighter, but Touma is a pretty cunning strategist on his own, good at figuring out/analyzing powers and has a environmental advantage since he knows well Academy City, so maybe like I said before, while dodging/negating her attacks with IB and precog, he could maybe trick her into some alley where he knows he could get close and attack her more easily, her flight being pratically useless there.
And I don't think he'll just go with dodging/negating her attacks forever until she realizes she needs Environmental Destruction in order to finish him off (and I don't think she's going to do so early in the fight in character ? But I'm not that knowledgeable about Shakugan no Shana either way). He knows he's not going to defeat her like that, Touma isn't an idiot. Plus, it's not like he hasn't faced skilled magicians before.
Wait, I just realized... Is it Flame Haze Shana with Moutain level Tier and durability ? Then, it's not fair, how Touma is going to K.O her with his Street level attack potency ? xD I'm confused now. Unless there is a misunderstanding... In that case, the only way Touman can win is if they are in close combat : Shana somehow managing to cut off his right hand (thinking he couldn't longer negate her attacks that way) and the dragons in it stomping her.
Hum... Out of curiosity, what's going to happen if Touma touches Shana's pendant with his right hand ?
She may be an urban fighter, but Touma is a pretty cunning strategist on his own, good at figuring out/analyzing powers and has a environmental advantage since he knows well Academy City, so maybe like I said before, while dodging/negating her attacks with IB and precog, he could maybe trick her into some alley where he knows he could get close and attack her more easily, her flight being pratically useless there.
And I don't think he'll just go with dodging/negating her attacks forever until she realizes she needs Environmental Destruction in order to finish him off (and I don't think she's going to do so early in the fight in character ? But I'm not that knowledgeable about Shakugan no Shana either way). He knows he's not going to defeat her like that, Touma isn't an idiot. Plus, it's not like he hasn't faced skilled magicians before.
Wait, I just realized... Is it Flame Haze Shana with Moutain level Tier and durability ? Then, it's not fair, how Touma is going to K.O her with his Street level attack potency ? xD I'm confused now. Unless there is a misunderstanding... In that case, the only way Touman can win is if they are in close combat : Shana somehow managing to cut off his right hand (thinking he couldn't longer negate her attacks that way) and the dragons in it stomping her.
Hum... Out of curiosity, what's going to happen if Touma touches Shana's pendant with his right hand ?
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If we consider the fact that Shana knows judo and karate she can beat him in a hand to hand combat
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I don't think so since Touma has precog and the speed is equalized. He could at least dodge her strikes and not get beaten. I mean, is street fighting really so lame compared to martial arts when it comes to hand-to-hand combat ?
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- Thread starter
- #136
The 7A durability is questionable, as she has not been shown to withstand anything that can destroy a large city, much less a mountain. It's probably applying more to her magic durability.
Physically, she's midline Street dura, building level at most.
Physically, she's midline Street dura, building level at most.
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Oh, so it means Touman could take her down and break her illusion? My vote still doesn't change then. Dodging her attacks/strikes (even if she's Moutain level Tier) and/or at least negating magical ones with IB shouldn't be difficult thanks to Precog and speed equalized, and also given the fact he already fought (and even defeated ?) supernatural opponents who could literally one-shot him. It's his speciality. XD
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Unrelated but, since Dargoo and Fukouda kinda brought it up...
In the stamina department, Touma has literally ran across most of Academy City before he fought Oriana Thompson, he got up and went to the Amazuka's to help them while still recovering from the trashing Acqua gave him that drove him to near death, got off his hospital bed and escaped the hospital while still suffering from gunshot wounds because he didn't want Anti-Skill interrogating him, defeated several of the skill outs and Shiage after getting shot on the side, and such stuff.
For intelligence, he actually pulled two organizations by the nose like a Chessmaster in Volume 5 of NT, completely broke down the reason why Leivinia Birdway's spells were so strong despite not having great magical power, dealt with terrorists in a plane by abusing heat expansion and hot coffee and tea, used a simple map bought in a store to find an enemy camp in Volume 20, is not beyond using psychological warfare or dirty tricks like throwing dust in people's eyes.
With speed equalized, the home field advantage knowing Academy City, being able to send any of her stronger attacks back at Shana like he did to the explosion Leivina conjured out of nowhere, only for him to grab it and send it back to a wind blade she sent at him right after, and all of Shana's powers just poofing off if he manages to touch her, my vote remains the same. Like, you can't tell me Shana wouldn't be shocked quite hard if Touma literally undid Alaistar, providing time to nail in a rather good punch to the head.
In the stamina department, Touma has literally ran across most of Academy City before he fought Oriana Thompson, he got up and went to the Amazuka's to help them while still recovering from the trashing Acqua gave him that drove him to near death, got off his hospital bed and escaped the hospital while still suffering from gunshot wounds because he didn't want Anti-Skill interrogating him, defeated several of the skill outs and Shiage after getting shot on the side, and such stuff.
For intelligence, he actually pulled two organizations by the nose like a Chessmaster in Volume 5 of NT, completely broke down the reason why Leivinia Birdway's spells were so strong despite not having great magical power, dealt with terrorists in a plane by abusing heat expansion and hot coffee and tea, used a simple map bought in a store to find an enemy camp in Volume 20, is not beyond using psychological warfare or dirty tricks like throwing dust in people's eyes.
With speed equalized, the home field advantage knowing Academy City, being able to send any of her stronger attacks back at Shana like he did to the explosion Leivina conjured out of nowhere, only for him to grab it and send it back to a wind blade she sent at him right after, and all of Shana's powers just poofing off if he manages to touch her, my vote remains the same. Like, you can't tell me Shana wouldn't be shocked quite hard if Touma literally undid Alaistar, providing time to nail in a rather good punch to the head.
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soooooooooooo much wall of text what say you do.
