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Idk, I need to look at Diavolo's profile firstIapitus The Impaler said:
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Kamijou Touma vs Crimson Flame Haze, Shana
- Thread starter Dragopentling
- Start date
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Your argument alone isn't debunking anything. I learned that the hard way.John985 said:
Like I said, you're better off if you contact more people who know more about either or both touma and Shana. Then we'll consider changes after well established arguments are made.
John985
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More like only few people here know about Shana at all. And already contacted GoldenScorpions.
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Touma lost to Tsuchimikado in what volume? OT 2? OT 14? Do not forget that he has changed a lot since the beginning of the novel, where he would really lose to anyone trained in some martial art, but today, in the NT, and even a little before, he could handle a lot of very strong people and defeated a lot of people just using strategy.
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Here's his profileDragopentling said:
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this is actually quite interesting, but 10-A on Diavolos profile in terms of physical strength is not an uplifting sign, but his haxes sure look fine from a first glance. maybe I'll start a thread on it later.Iapitus The Impaler said:
GoldenScorpions
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I was asked to come here, but I'm not sure what I can add. I already gave my reasoning as to why and how Shana would win:
For the sake of it, I'm voting Shana for Jasonsith's reasons; environmental destruction isn't OOC since she can repair any damage done around her, after the fight. I'm also not convinced Shana's powers can be negated just by Touma touching her.
The way I personally see it is Shana attacks with her sword, Touma dodges and eventually blocks with his hand --> sword is gone. In the midst of the fight, Shana would likely use her cloak to protect herself from an attack --> it's gone from his right hand. At that point, Shana will have understood Touma's power coming from his right hand, and then proceed to either martial arts her way through, or environment-destructs with her flames.
For the sake of it, I'm voting Shana for Jasonsith's reasons; environmental destruction isn't OOC since she can repair any damage done around her, after the fight. I'm also not convinced Shana's powers can be negated just by Touma touching her.
The way I personally see it is Shana attacks with her sword, Touma dodges and eventually blocks with his hand --> sword is gone. In the midst of the fight, Shana would likely use her cloak to protect herself from an attack --> it's gone from his right hand. At that point, Shana will have understood Touma's power coming from his right hand, and then proceed to either martial arts her way through, or environment-destructs with her flames.
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Whelp I'm just the thread maker here. If anyone is serious about a redux, let the moderators or admins know and show them this thread to see if they find anything wrong....they might even give their own input.
I'll be completely open for a redo after that.
@GoldenScorpions unfortunately you came too late, but you can do what I mentioned above.
I'll be completely open for a redo after that.
@GoldenScorpions unfortunately you came too late, but you can do what I mentioned above.
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My vote remains the same. Telling me that someone like Acqua or Carissa or Knight Leader or many of the other fights he's been on with people that don't just spam magic aren't actual good fighters would be silly at best, and all of these still happened in the first part. He didn't outskill them, and in Acqua's case was smacked around, but unlike Shana he had the benefit of actually being absurdly much, much, much faster than Touma and not having normal human resilience if IB gut-punched him, this is also being the guy that blocks attacks without seeing, judging distance and direction by feeling the wind. If Shana compares to this skill wise in anyway, even disregarding the massive speed difference Touma had to withstand, be my guest about a redo.
Even if she relies on swordmanship, one wrong move and she could either lose her weapon or cut his arm off thinking it better to disable whatever he's doing and instant losing.
As for her powers not going away, Sasha's body was claimed by Archangel Gabriel in the Angel Fall incident, and Gabriel didn't even dare touch Touma's body when he offered it candy despite being in a normal human body. If the source of her power is inside her and is a whole different entity, he's getting snuffed out if Touma makes contact.
Even if she relies on swordmanship, one wrong move and she could either lose her weapon or cut his arm off thinking it better to disable whatever he's doing and instant losing.
As for her powers not going away, Sasha's body was claimed by Archangel Gabriel in the Angel Fall incident, and Gabriel didn't even dare touch Touma's body when he offered it candy despite being in a normal human body. If the source of her power is inside her and is a whole different entity, he's getting snuffed out if Touma makes contact.
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Comparing Shana's versatility to Acqua's is silly.....it's kinda like trying to pit a Velociraptor against a T-Rex (cept the T-rex be also faster lul) one-on-one....no, this is no exaggeration, either.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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I'm not gonna doubt Shana is skilled, I remember some of the novels, but nothing I actually remember puts her at "feels attacks just by the wind" and "expertly controlling 7 near invisible steel wires", and that's the kind of skilled people Touma was floored by, and that was STILL in part 1. The latest was Acqua, laughably above Kaori, and a bit after the mid area of the first part.
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Shana is at most Mountain Level, and I think her case is around baseline, unless she casts Tenpa Josai, which Touma would still likely hard-counter
Acqua, on the other hand, calcs at Large Island Level easily.
Acqua, on the other hand, calcs at Large Island Level easily.
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Nah, AP isn't what I thought about mostly, but speed differences and pure skill. Kanzaki is also MH and was using multiple, nearly invisible wires. I just don't see cases like these, the main fights where Touma was actually utterly smacked around, good precedents for saying Shana just outskills.
And no, he wouldn't match her in skill I am not that crazy. I just think he could fare much better than given credit for.
And no, he wouldn't match her in skill I am not that crazy. I just think he could fare much better than given credit for.
John985
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Touma didn't win againts them solo, he need help. Did he win in the fight with Aqua and Carisa solo? no, Did Kanzaki fought Touma seriously? Look there's also a fight with Thor who is CQC specialist he can't even land a single hit. You guys just wank Touma so much. Othinus even said it that Touma doesn't have a great fighting skills if he tried to learn martial arts or use a weapon, then he won't be able to save peole.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
And shana is still a human that can use the powers of denezen. There was one time in season 2 where she can't use her powers as a flame haze, she can only rely on her skills. Even if Touma manage to touch Shana it would only negate the powers that was given to her by Alastor.
I already said this, the Nietono no Shana is a treasure tool, like Curtana. If he tried to block it using his hands, Nietono no Shana would disappear.
Her source of power isn't inside her but on her necklace.
GoldenScorpions
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John, just want to point out that Shana's power is indeed INSIDE Shana. The pendant is just a means for Alastor to communicate with the outside world. If the pendant disappears, Shana will still have her powers.
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So disagreeing with you is wanking? Keep that up and I may honestly lose any ability to take you seriously. Those specific fights happened not even halfway through the whole series as it stands now, and my whole point is that Touma was overwhelmed by circumstances much worse than Shana going after him CQC. Acqua is so many times faster it's absurd and has enough combat skill to feel attacks by damn air pressure, Kaori is still absurdly much faster and use multi directional nearly invisible attacks and he still managed to figure it out. Comparing those to Shana who'd end up depowered with a contact in speed equalized is absurd. And you better specify which fight with Thor, because equating "The world moves so your attacks never hit" Thor to Shana is another misguided comparison.
And Golden did clear up that Shana's power is inside Shana. And as it is a wholly supernatural entity different from her (please correct if wrong), one touch and he's gone. No idea why you are bringing up Othinus when her whole point was a more philosophical, personal one, not just "you don't know how to fight".
And Golden did clear up that Shana's power is inside Shana. And as it is a wholly supernatural entity different from her (please correct if wrong), one touch and he's gone. No idea why you are bringing up Othinus when her whole point was a more philosophical, personal one, not just "you don't know how to fight".
John985
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Did he even manage to fight back againt's Aqua? no he didn't he was just thrown around like a rag doll. Koari didn't fought Touma even seriously she only want Touma to give up. Im only using Thor because he's only one who primarily fight in CQC and Touma can't even react to it.
Yes the power is inside shana, but she is still human. When Touma touch Style did he disappear? No he wasn't. And when he was grapple by the Military did he manage to fight back? No he can't even do a damn thing, that's the reason I said you wank his fighting capabilities when he is not really good in CQC. That's why I ask did he even won any single fight solo who is good in CQC?
Just saying what Othinus said about is only philosophical, she also means it that if he fought people who are profesional who are using normal means he won't be able to do a damn thing.
When Touma touch index did he nulify the curse inside her? He can't, if the power is inside the person.
Yes the power is inside shana, but she is still human. When Touma touch Style did he disappear? No he wasn't. And when he was grapple by the Military did he manage to fight back? No he can't even do a damn thing, that's the reason I said you wank his fighting capabilities when he is not really good in CQC. That's why I ask did he even won any single fight solo who is good in CQC?
Just saying what Othinus said about is only philosophical, she also means it that if he fought people who are profesional who are using normal means he won't be able to do a damn thing.
When Touma touch index did he nulify the curse inside her? He can't, if the power is inside the person.
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I'm... not really sure what your point is or if you understood mine. Shana is human and natural, the power inside her isn't. Sasha is a human and totally natural, Archangel Gabriel inside her body is not, it was still afraid. I even said above life force is supernatural but naturally made, refined lifeforce turned into magical power is not and Imagine Breaker puffs that out. Same as her power.
And you keep pulling people that are good in CQC, when those people are way above Shana's paygrade. The skills shown by Kaori and Acqua are leagues above any skill feat I can remember of Shana's. Even Motoyasu specifically uses a fighting style that pulls every death blow and deadly technique and underhanded trick from multiple fighting styles out, and his pure skill can keep one of the biggest analyctical brains in Academy City off her balance when dodging bullets by observing the angle of the barrel and timing with the press of the trigger is child's play to her despite having a normal human body.
And you keep pulling people that are good in CQC, when those people are way above Shana's paygrade. The skills shown by Kaori and Acqua are leagues above any skill feat I can remember of Shana's. Even Motoyasu specifically uses a fighting style that pulls every death blow and deadly technique and underhanded trick from multiple fighting styles out, and his pure skill can keep one of the biggest analyctical brains in Academy City off her balance when dodging bullets by observing the angle of the barrel and timing with the press of the trigger is child's play to her despite having a normal human body.
John985
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Im not saying that Shana is comparable to the likes of Acqua or Kaori, Im just asking proof of Touma defeating anyone who is good in CQC who are not relaying on any magical ability. Even someone like Saronia who isn't a master in maritial art defeated Touma quite easily. So bring proof that he can defeat Shana in CQC.
The the circumstances of Shana and Sasha is very different to compare.
The the circumstances of Shana and Sasha is very different to compare.
GoldenScorpions
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Tbh, the only way for Touma to defeat Alastor (the guy inside Shana), is if Shana summons him, which is a last resort power if there's literally no other option left.
GoldenScorpions
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Shana isn't possessed. They more like coexist
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by experience touma fought somewhat equal to thor master in cqc of gremlin and even had the spell to always win
the billion years experience he always died, but he lived countless phases, some lasted a few sec as he was immediately killed, some lasted more than life times as othinus created world dedicated to break him or give him hope only to crush it at the last second
and what do u mean by "Unlike Touma, flame haze actually fight and kill there opponent." ?
the billion years experience he always died, but he lived countless phases, some lasted a few sec as he was immediately killed, some lasted more than life times as othinus created world dedicated to break him or give him hope only to crush it at the last second
and what do u mean by "Unlike Touma, flame haze actually fight and kill there opponent." ?
John985
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>by experience touma fought somewhat equal to thor master in cqc of gremlin and even had the spell to always win
DId he even land a single hit?
>about fight to the death.
Im not sure how to explain but, the experience in that area is much better than a normal bout. As somone who practice martial art, I know the feeling. Pretty sure other manga is also talking about this. I know a shounen manga Negima is talking about this.
DId he even land a single hit?
>about fight to the death.
Im not sure how to explain but, the experience in that area is much better than a normal bout. As somone who practice martial art, I know the feeling. Pretty sure other manga is also talking about this. I know a shounen manga Negima is talking about this.
